edkwon Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Now i don't pretend to be an expert on the science of dynonomaters and how they measure hp or tq at all. All i know is what i've picked up from the readings of other ppl and my own personal experiences at tuning shops. But i thought i'd post these various dyno plots as an illustrative point to those who don't yet understand that one set of dyno numbers can't necessarily be compared to another unless there is some common baseline to refer to. So i'll start off with a stock dyno run (no mods) done over a year ago on a mustang dyno http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1599/stockdynowv0.jpg and then after a stg 2 AP protune (mods are listed in all my other threads, no need to repeat myself) now: http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/557/mustang2dynoti7.jpg and now the exact same stg 2 tune on 2 other dynos (i also ran on a dyno dynamics, but do not have a graphic or printout of that run) a dynolog which read lower than the mustang: http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/6730/mavrikdynoij1.jpg and a dynojet which read higher than the mustang: http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/811/edkwon07lgtspecbstage2iq4.jpg Now i know most of this stuff is common knowledge for experienced tuners here, but i thought its a nice illustration for the n00bs who spout out numbers without providing a frame of reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infamous1 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Nice comparisons, I am suprised you didn't put down more at Yimi's..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infamous1 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Oh and was there something wrong with the AFR meter at Yimi's? The AFR is reading 12.1 at redline vs 10.8-9 at Mavrik.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edkwon Posted February 7, 2008 Author Share Posted February 7, 2008 Oh and was there something wrong with the AFR meter at Yimi's? The AFR is reading 12.1 at redline vs 10.8-9 at Mavrik.... different quality wideband O2 sensors was the only explanation we could come up with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infamous1 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 different quality wideband O2 sensors was the only explanation we could come up with... That is a very wide variance, I hope the one at Yimi's was having trouble. 12.1 equals lots of trouble on CA91 or any normal pump gas for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyan Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 the one at Yim's did that early last dyno day. Swapped the o2 sensor with the backup one, and dropped a full point on the AFR scale. Might have been the same issue on Ed's car. SoCal Duck Hunters Club - Unit 52 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edkwon Posted February 7, 2008 Author Share Posted February 7, 2008 yeah i think the yimi wideband sensor was reading wrong at the time i did my run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyd2005 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Can you relist your mods or add it to your vbgarage? I looked through your old threads and couldn't find it. http://www.legacygt.com/forums/search.php?searchid=3887468 Are you running an intake? That dip in AFR at 3200 rpm is usually (but not always) due to an improperly scaled MAF in the mid MAFg range. Somewhere in the 100 to 160 g/s range. The easiest way to check that is with a wideband in 5th gear at constant partial throttle. You should double check your AFR Learning A, B, C, and D just to make sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERLoft Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Very similar to the numbers we just did today at Harman Motive on their Mustang dyno with my stage 2.5 Spec.B.... http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a89/ERLoft/2007%20Legacy%20Spec%20B/020608Stage2Dyno.jpg 2013 █S4 - Glacier White - DSG - B&O - Tech Package - Sports Diff - Napa - RS4 Grille - Stasis Exhaust - APR Intake - KW Variant 1 - Stern Control Arms - CR-15 - Stasis RSB - Moog Endlinks - PC Hyper Black Peelers - Deval Front Lip - ECS Rear Diffuser - Carbon Imports Ducktail - ECS Mirror Caps - Relak Paddle Extensions - Autostyle Floor Mats - LED Interior - V1 - Blackvue DR900s - [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infamous1 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Very similar to the numbers we just did today at Harman Motive on their Mustang dyno with my stage 2.5 Spec.B.... I don't have the printout scanned yet to upload, but it was right around 249hp/278tq for my car. What did you make on the 100oct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edkwon Posted February 7, 2008 Author Share Posted February 7, 2008 Can you relist your mods or add it to your vbgarage? I looked through your old threads and couldn't find it. http://www.legacygt.com/forums/search.php?searchid=3887468 Are you running an intake? That dip in AFR at 3200 rpm is usually (but not always) due to an improperly scaled MAF in the mid MAFg range. Somewhere in the 100 to 160 g/s range. The easiest way to check that is with a wideband in 5th gear at constant partial throttle. You should double check your AFR Learning A, B, C, and D just to make sure. look for my pics thread, i have my complete mods list on the first post of th first page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERLoft Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 What did you make on the 100oct? I'm actually going to have to go back for the 100 map. The dongle and the ProTuner software didn't like my car, so Dan had to adjust the map on the laptop, upload it to the AccessPort, reflash the car, disconnect the AccessPort and hook up the laptop to log every time he made a change. It was a slow process, so we're hoping that Cobb gets something out to improve connections. I figure we'll do the 100 map in a month or so. 2013 █S4 - Glacier White - DSG - B&O - Tech Package - Sports Diff - Napa - RS4 Grille - Stasis Exhaust - APR Intake - KW Variant 1 - Stern Control Arms - CR-15 - Stasis RSB - Moog Endlinks - PC Hyper Black Peelers - Deval Front Lip - ECS Rear Diffuser - Carbon Imports Ducktail - ECS Mirror Caps - Relak Paddle Extensions - Autostyle Floor Mats - LED Interior - V1 - Blackvue DR900s - [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostjunkie Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 That is a very wide variance, I hope the one at Yimi's was having trouble. 12.1 equals lots of trouble on CA91 or any normal pump gas for that matter. We had a group tuning weekend a couple of of weeks later and had a couple customers with widebands in their cars. They jived with our wideband. It it possible that it is reading .1-.2 leaner than actual, but no way is it 1 full point leaner than reality. Ed's car run fine in 3rd gear, but it pulled a ton of timing during a 4th gear pull. That would seem to indicate that it was running a bit leaner than optimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostjunkie Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Nice comparisons, I am suprised you didn't put down more at Yimi's..... I'm not surprised at all. Everyone seems to think that Dynojets read a lot higher than some other dynos. The difference between a Dynojet and a lower reading Mustang (ie: properly calibrated and with no user correction factors) is usually 10% give or a take. Ed's car actually showed only a roughly 6-7% difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infamous1 Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I'm not surprised at all. Everyone seems to think that Dynojets read a lot higher than some other dynos. The difference between a Dynojet and a lower reading Mustang (ie: properly calibrated and with no user correction factors) is usually 10% give or a take. Ed's car actually showed only a roughly 6-7% difference. Oh no I do believe that, but just the fact that I put down 247whp/278TQ on Tuning Technologies dynojet with a TDC OTS map blitz intake, Xo2 CBE and a gutted UP/DP. And that was in 90 degree heat and uncorrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyd2005 Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 We had a group tuning weekend a couple of of weeks later and had a couple customers with widebands in their cars. They jived with our wideband. It it possible that it is reading .1-.2 leaner than actual, but no way is it 1 full point leaner than reality. Ed's car run fine in 3rd gear, but it pulled a ton of timing during a 4th gear pull. That would seem to indicate that it was running a bit leaner than optimal. I agree except I don't know why it would run leaner in 4th than in 3rd. I don't think a WBO2 would be off by 1 point. It can be off by 0.1-0.2 but not a whole point. If it was off by a whole point that would indicate a faulty sensor and the readings would be really erratic. Take a look at that dip in AFR. It's in all the dyno runs. There's clearly a problem with the MAF scale in the mid range. If there is a problem with the MAF scale in the low end between 40-60 g/s, then that will drive AFR Learning D which will throw off the AFR at WOT. AFR learning takes time to set up. If the ecu had been recently flashed as during tuning, then it won't show up. The AFR Learning only affected the dyno chart at Yimi because the ecu probably had not been reflashed or reset. Take a look at the last dyno plot done at Yimi. Clearly, there is timing being pulled between 5000 and 6400 rpm. I would at the very minimum check the AFR learning. Ed can use the free haxored ecuexplorer program available on Cobb's website. It won't be able to log AFR learning A, B, C, and D individually. However, you can log AFR Learning #1 Current and then do a WOT log from 2000 to 4000 rpm to check AFR Learning C and D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostjunkie Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I agree except I don't know why it would run leaner in 4th than in 3rd. I don't think a WBO2 would be off by 1 point. It can be off by 0.1-0.2 but not a whole point. If it was off by a whole point that would indicate a faulty sensor and the readings would be really erratic. Take a look at that dip in AFR. It's in all the dyno runs. There's clearly a problem with the MAF scale in the mid range. If there is a problem with the MAF scale in the low end between 40-60 g/s, then that will drive AFR Learning D which will throw off the AFR at WOT. AFR learning takes time to set up. If the ecu had been recently flashed as during tuning, then it won't show up. The AFR Learning only affected the dyno chart at Yimi because the ecu probably had not been reflashed or reset. Take a look at the last dyno plot done at Yimi. Clearly, there is timing being pulled between 5000 and 6400 rpm. I would at the very minimum check the AFR learning. Ed can use the free haxored ecuexplorer program available on Cobb's website. It won't be able to log AFR learning A, B, C, and D individually. However, you can log AFR Learning #1 Current and then do a WOT log from 2000 to 4000 rpm to check AFR Learning C and D. The car ran the same AFR's in 4th gear as 3rd gear. However the length of the run in 4th gear is so much longer that an edgier tune will end up pulling some timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostjunkie Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Oh no I do believe that, but just the fact that I put down 247whp/278TQ on Tuning Technologies dynojet with a TDC OTS map blitz intake, Xo2 CBE and a gutted UP/DP. And that was in 90 degree heat and uncorrected. Uncorrected huh... that's new for Tuning Technologies. Almost all their posted dyno plots are with "Standard" correction, which inflates the numbers. BTW, the Blitz intake seriously messes with MAF scaling. That could have easily led to sub optimal AFR's, skewed load scaling and sub optimal results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostjunkie Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I'm actually going to have to go back for the 100 map. The dongle and the ProTuner software didn't like my car, so Dan had to adjust the map on the laptop, upload it to the AccessPort, reflash the car, disconnect the AccessPort and hook up the laptop to log every time he made a change. It was a slow process, so we're hoping that Cobb gets something out to improve connections. I figure we'll do the 100 map in a month or so. The same crap just happened to me on a customer's car. It was pretty dang frustrating and more than a little time consuming. I only had to deal with it when I was more or less done with the tune. Kudos to Dan for toughing that situation out for an entire tune. I would have launched my laptop through the windshield halfway through! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infamous1 Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Uncorrected huh... that's new for Tuning Technologies. Almost all their posted dyno plots are with "Standard" correction, which inflates the numbers. BTW, the Blitz intake seriously messes with MAF scaling. That could have easily led to sub optimal AFR's, skewed load scaling and sub optimal results. This was a year ago, but you were right I checked the sheet again they did use STD correction. By the the way the Blitz held a tight AFR in all 3 runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyd2005 Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 This was a year ago, but you were right I checked the sheet again they did use STD correction. By the the way the Blitz held a tight AFR in all 3 runs. AFR learning D is only set up if you drive constant throttle between 40 and 60 g/s. The dynojet is not a loadable dyno so you can't do this on the dyno. You can do a million WOT logs and your AFR won't change but if you drive on the freeway and then come back, your AFR will most likely change if your AFR Learning D hadn't been set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edkwon Posted August 17, 2008 Author Share Posted August 17, 2008 Just got retuned with my VF40 18G, 740 cc injectors, Cobb SF intake, AVO fuel pump, boost solenoid, Perrin EL headers at HB Speed in Orange County, CA http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/9462/cimg0257kk2.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenaciousC Posted August 17, 2008 Share Posted August 17, 2008 Great thread. So if I understood correctly, you ran 230whp, ~205whp, and ~250whp on three different dyno's with the same exact car/tune. Crazy...there clearly needs to be a standard by which people can measure power. That's just criminal lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jomamma Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 did Jon have the dyno shipped from TDC to HB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edkwon Posted August 18, 2008 Author Share Posted August 18, 2008 Great thread. So if I understood correctly, you ran 230whp, ~205whp, and ~250whp on three different dyno's with the same exact car/tune. Crazy...there clearly needs to be a standard by which people can measure power. That's just criminal lol. that's exactly the point i was trying to make with this thread. same car, same mods, same tune, same 91 oct california gas. same elevations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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