offthacliff Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Guys Keefe said it best.... Its a BOXER... The pistons are horozatally oposed.... So the car shimmys side to side as a result of the engine shimmying back and forth. I think its nothing to worry about, and nothing to do with octane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 [quote name='offthacliff']Guys Keefe said it best.... Its a BOXER... The pistons are horozatally oposed.... So the car shimmys side to side as a result of the engine shimmying back and forth. I think its nothing to worry about, and nothing to do with octane.[/QUOTE] It does this when there is a misfire or bad mixture, not when all 4 cylinders are working correctly. This happens to I4's with problems as well, it just shakes the car on a different axis. chug chug chug chug shake chug chug chug chug chug chug shake shake, etc. Oh, and I'm getting really tired of problems getting dismissed. There's no need to be defensive - unless you have a financial stake in subaru. I don't know how long we went on about the stuttering problem being "just a turbo car" to "don't stab the throttle" to "your using the wrong gas" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offthacliff Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Wow! nobodys being defensive, but look at the numbers... Its not just one or two guys getting the shake its almost everyone (seems its the norm for this car)... also, seems its when it Idles at a certin osscilation. It is a shake from side to side> it is a boxer>, put two and two together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan42025 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Although mine is smooth most of the time, I do notice it shakes when the air con cycles on. The rpms jump a bit, deliberately so I think but the car shakes for a second or two then goes away. This is while ildling in drive. Got so bad at one stage I almost took it back to the dealer. Instead I first tried injector cleaner in the fuel and it fixed it after a long drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyDB Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Our LGT shakes only when my wife and I are.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob N Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 [quote name='Deer Killer']It does this when there is a misfire or bad mixture, not when all 4 cylinders are working correctly. This happens to I4's with problems as well, it just shakes the [url="http://0-2u.com/?go=car"]car[/url] on a different axis. chug chug chug chug shake chug chug chug chug chug chug shake shake, etc. Oh, and I'm getting really tired of problems getting dismissed. There's no need to be defensive - unless you have a financial stake in subaru. I don't know how long we went on about the stuttering problem being "just a turbo [url="http://get-data.net/?go=car"]car[/url]" to "don't stab the throttle" to "your using the wrong gas"[/QUOTE]It's normal for a boxer engine, go read up on them. Totally different than other engines. Boxers have always been a little "ruff". It's part of the charm, hell, Porsche has the same thing but you can't feel it as well because the engine is in the back. I've owned a WRX, 2 Legacy SUS's (still have my 97), Legacy SW, RS2.5 and now the LGT2.5. All have the "shake" syndrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottenspam Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 I realize that this is being well addressed the "Shuddering" issue and idle shake. What I find interesting about the comments is what peoples perceptions of a problem are. ITs interesting to me that people think there is something wrong with their car when a 2.5 liter 4 cyclinder has some shakes at idle. Its a big 4 banger, and this engine is extremely smooth compared to what was on the market just 5 years ago. We've become so used to toyota and honda balance shafted 4's and V6's that we think an engine that has vibration isn't running right. I remember the 87 legend's 2.5L V6 was soo smooth and quite we often started it a second time becasue we didn't realize it was running. I think people expect that level of refinement from a 30K car, and a 2.5 liter 4 just can't deliver it. All subaru boxers shake at idle, some more some less. My only cocern with my car is that it was smooth when I bought it and developed a little shake at idle with some miles. This is not a DEFENSE of subaru, its just subaru dosen't build a toyota engine. While its not as smooth, it least it has some power unlike what toyota generally puts in its cars. Its just part of the subaru trade off. The shuddering issue I also wonder if it really is an issue. There isn't a 4 cyclinder on this planet that will be smooth when you stomp it at low RPM's. Hell the turbo dosen't really spool till 2500-3000rpm's its at the very bottom of the power range for this engine. IT's power peak is at 3600rpm's. There is going to be some response irragularieties at lower RPM as the engine is a turbo, turbo's take time to spool and its a big 4 so it may buck a little. This ain't honda, or saab which all stick balance shafts on their 4's, its a big unblananced shafted 4! Yeah I know Boxers blah, blah inherently balanced, bottom line is outside of the theoretical world it ain't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 [quote name='Bob N']It's part of the charm, hell, Porsche has the same thing but you can't feel it as well because the engine is in the back. [/QUOTE] Actually, they run on 6 pistons, so the resonance is less noticable. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 [quote name='rottenspam']ITs interesting to me that people think there is something wrong with their car when a 2.5 liter 4 cyclinder has some shakes at idle...... We've become so used to toyota and honda balance shafted 4's and V6's that we think an engine that has vibration isn't running right. The shuddering issue I also wonder if it really is an issue. There isn't a 4 cyclinder on this planet that will be smooth when you stomp it at low RPM's. Hell the turbo dosen't really spool till 2500-3000rpm's its at the very bottom of the power range for this engine. IT's power peak is at 3600rpm's. There is going to be some response irragularieties at lower RPM as the engine is a turbo, turbo's take time to spool and its a big 4 so it may buck a little. This ain't honda, or saab which all stick balance shafts on their 4's, its a big unblananced shafted 4! Yeah I know Boxers blah, blah inherently balanced, bottom line is outside of the theoretical world it ain't.[/QUOTE] #1 No, it's not "vibration" it's a transient shake. No counterbalance shaft will fix it. A V6 could do the same thing, so could a V8. #2 wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong.. The issue has already been confirmed as bad ECU tuning. [url="http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=91289&postcount=27"]http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=91289&postcount=27[/url] [url="http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=81966&postcount=100"]http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=81966&postcount=100[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rottenspam Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 [quote name='Deer Killer']#1 No, it's not "vibration" it's a transient shake. No counterbalance shaft will fix it. A V6 could do the same thing, so could a V8. #2 wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong.. The issue has already been confirmed as bad ECU tuning. [url="http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=91289&postcount=27"]http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=91289&postcount=27[/url] [url="http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=81966&postcount=100"]http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=81966&postcount=100[/url][/QUOTE][color=black]I think you missed my point..... My point was that people perceive these issues the idle shake, and shuddering to be defects in their cars. I was merely pointing out that I conclude its an inherent design feature of the engine. [/color] [color=black] [/color] [color=black]I realize there is a transient shake I have it (note my previous posts). Yes, a counterbalance shaft will help quell that. It can balance out nth order vibrations. Yup I agree its transient in nature, I don't think you read my other posts, I noted exactly that. I'm glad we agree why argue? Besides how do you know a counterbalance shaft can't quell a shake?[/color] [color=black] [/color] [color=black]#2 I'm glad that you can repeat what others have already said. I'm well aware of those threads, I've already read and contributed. I can read what they said understand what they say but I don't agree with the conclusion. I know what a lot of people think the "shuddering" problem is the result of an ECU bug but the only people who claim its a result of that bug are ones who would benefit from selling the fix. Something I think a lot of people have lost site of. I'm sure the next thing they'll try and sell is a fix for the vibration. My conclusion is its an inherent design feature of subaru's GT engine, and people think its a problem because of their perceptions. Does that mean there is something actually wrong? Of course since people have already concluded there is something wrong someone else thinks they can make a buck off that perception to sell you something....[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offthacliff Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Deer Killer, whos being defensive now...lol Rotten, I agree with you, and let me add, that a change in Idle, such as can be expected with a remap, will change the speed at wich the pistons are moving and thus change the Occilation, It could get less precievable, it could get worse! So Dkiller's info from Vishnu is not compleatly wrong; however, the "Vibration" never was a "problem" in the first place... I kinda like it. Reminds me of my dads old 454. If some people are experiencing irratic Idles and misfires they should contact SOA and use there warranty. I know I would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan42025 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 This is all amusing. Subaru advertise the advantages of it's boxer, one of which is the smoothness of the engine compared to others. Are they telling fibs or are we seeing a real problem with some engines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 [quote name='rottenspam'][color=black]feature[/color][/QUOTE] Do you work for microsoft? Yes.. feeeeeature. A countershaft can't stop something that's completely random. Just to confirm [url="member.php?u=2049"]myUsername[/url]'s original post. It only happens when the engine is warm. There's some odd mixture or ignition problem when at warm idle (and even upwards of 1500rpm), and not at cold idle. Thus you can rule out anything mechanical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 it idles at different rpm's when cold and when warm........ My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 [quote name='mwiener2']it idles at different rpm's when cold and when warm........[/QUOTE] yeah < 1500 rpm. Unless you blip the throttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 [quote name='fan42025']This is all amusing. Subaru advertise the advantages of it's boxer, one of which is the smoothness of the engine compared to others. Are they telling fibs or are we seeing a real problem with some engines?[/QUOTE] I just think the engineer who did our maps had a liquid lunch before he tuned them in one afternoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan42025 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Hmm. Sounds like I found a good reason to get an Ecutek. BTW Deer Killer 1.618, are you into EW? If you are you will know what I mean. [quote name='Deer Killer']I just think the engineer who did our maps had a liquid lunch before he tuned them in one afternoon.[/QUOTE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 [quote name='fan42025']BTW Deer Killer 1.618, are you into EW? If you are you will know what I mean.[/QUOTE] It's a cool idea, but I think superceded.. Using that proportion with such large granularity isn't going to work very well when you're part of the system you're playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken S Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 [quote name='fan42025']This is all amusing. Subaru advertise the advantages of it's boxer, one of which is the smoothness of the engine compared to others. Are they telling fibs or are we seeing a real problem with some engines?[/QUOTE] The boxer is relatively smooth for a large displacement 4-banger with no balance shafts. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 [quote name='fan42025']This is all amusing. Subaru advertise the advantages of it's boxer, one of which is the smoothness of the engine compared to others. Are they telling fibs or are we seeing a real problem with some engines?[/QUOTE] What they mean is the oscillations.. the elapsed time for the pistons to travel in unison (left in - right out, right in-left out at 180 degree phases) unlike an I-4 where it's just one-down, 2nd piston half way down, 3rd piston full down, 4th piston full up). Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan42025 Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 Worse than that - it doesn't work enough like so many other ways to be worth the trouble, at least on its own. [quote name='Deer Killer']It's a cool idea, but I think superceded.. Using that proportion with such large granularity isn't going to work very well when you're part of the system you're playing.[/QUOTE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moriarty Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 That's I how I know it's still running Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwjd Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Hey guys, I had the same problem with my 2.5i. It had a really low idle, took it into the dealer, and got my first oil change. They also raised the idle. After the change, in park/neutral, pretty smooth (Vibrations barely perceivable), however once you put it in drive (ie. Stopped at traffic light) it starts to shake a little cuz the rpm drops. Its odd, sometimes on warm/cold days it'll get better...some days warm/cold it'll get worse...However, while driving...its very smooth...thank goodness I think what makes it worse is the fact that Subaru advertises the boxer engine as a smooth engine because of the horizontal opposed action when its not. Yes I understand big displacement, no balance shafts, but if Subaru wants to play with the luxury brands...its got to do better...especially since most of the money Subaru spends on its car is either engine/transmission/awd... Sorry for the whining everyone...just letting off some steam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parousia Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 [url]http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7403&highlight=radiator+fan[/url] This was the problem for me in my new Legacy.... Was very quite and smooth when new then I noticed some vibration and noise coming form the engine compartment and I checked to find that the driver side rad fan was vibrating and running constantly... Parousia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 You know guys, now that I think about it this condition is caused by a lean condition at hot idle (< 1500 rpms) Sometimes it will misfire in one cylinder leading to an imbalance that "shakes" the car. This is because of trying to aggressively meet EPA standards I assume. During cold idle the engine will be running rich enough that it won't do this. I manually adjusted the lean mixture in my last car to "fix" this problem.. can AP/ecutek adjust closed loop parameters at 650 rpms? Thanks Parousia for reminding me (just got me going with the "vibration" thing, the poll would have said "vibration" if that's what it was, it's something entirely different.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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