kartracerboy - I'm too lazy to look up the post where you told me Masa was

[fweasel]

a better driver than Raikkonen. Your boy may be under contract for a few more years, but he won't be winning any championships:p

[KartRacerBoy]

LoL! Yea, the funny thing is that before Kimi began testing, I posted on the Autosport F1 chatsite (last fall) that I thought Kimi would win the championship (most reliable car, faster driver than Massa, McLaren unreliability). It is to laugh!!!

 

Massa was ultra fast in the off season but once Kimi figured out the setup for his Ferrari, he was strong. Each only had two DNF/DSQ. Each had their bad luck with mech issues in qualifying so it really evened out. I think the difference was that Massa can be ultra-fast on his day (especially when he's on pole), but Kimi is more consistently fast and is more of a fighter. I will note that without Massa playing the patsy and giving up 1st place in the final race of Brazil, Hamilton still would've won the championship.

 

I was a fan of Alonso b4 this year. What a cry baby. If you want to be #1 driver, prove it on the track. Hamilton, a rookie, equalled his pace or more much of the year. When Alonso was faster on a particular weekend, he only was just faster and only finished a place ahead generally. [Exceptions in Germany (flat in qualifying then stupid tire strategy in race)] When Alonso was slower than Lewis, he was usually at least 2 places behind at the end of the race (4 of 60). But of course, Hamilton made silly rookie mistakes in 3 races (Germany - slicks too early; China - too long on worn out tires leading to off in pit lane; Brazil - racing Alonso on 1st lap and losing 3 places).

 

Kimi had the most wins (5 real wins and one gift in Brazil for 6 total). He did a great job and perhaps it was justice given the spying scandal (but I don't think so - Hamilton just made too many rookie mistakes and McLaren pit calls have always been more marginal than Ross Brawn at Ferrari). Hamilton threw away the championship and Kimi just showed his maturity. And he's faster than I gave him credit for but he's still no Schumacher/Senna/Prost.

[KartRacerBoy]

And Massa might win a championship if he learns to fight a little more.

[fweasel]

And Massa might win a championship if he learns to fight a little more.

I don't see that happening. I do see Hamilton learning A LOT from this season and as long as he can hold a good seat, maintain proper management, he's primed to break some serious records. I like everything about him.

[KartRacerBoy]

a better driver than Raikkonen. Your boy may be under contract for a few more years, but he won't be winning any championships:p

 

fweasel, wake up!!! Yea YOU!

 

Do you think Kimi will get his game together and take it again in 2008? Or is Massa this year's MASTER OF GOING FASTER (kudos to George Harrison)? Or will it be Lewis Hamiliton?

[fweasel]

way to bump a post from last year, slacker. Kimi's done. He won his championship, owns two boats, has an enzo in the garage... he's bored and his F1 career is over with, IMO.

 

Masa has definitely earned my respect this season, but I still say he won't win a championship.

 

I'm routing for the little guys this year. I like Kubica and his attitude. I hope Bordais gets one sold performance under his belt to solidify his position on the team for another year to make up the learning curve. I believe he's one of the most talented drivers on the track.

[KartRacerBoy]

Did you see the Spa race today. What a great race, espec the last 2 laps. Wow.

 

Lewis may do it this year, but he needs to learn to race for points. When he gets into the bottom of the points, he makes stupid decision (as does his team) in his desperation to claw back to the top. Massa is better at maximizing points on a bad weekend.

 

Kimi's still only 23 points out with 5 races to go. Maybe McLaren will throw it away again!

[PhilT]

Lewis showed today that he has got what it takes, as long as he doesn't do anything stupid, the title is his !

[PhilT]

Utter Bullshit !!

 

Hamilton gave the lead back to Raikkonen after taking a short cut, then over took him again legally, why on earth he should be stripped of the win is beyond me

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7602830.stm

[KartRacerBoy]

I've got to agree. Hamilton was within the rules to the letter. And he was FORCED OFF the track by Kimi. I had no problem with that (last few laps) but it was go off or take them both out. Lewis then let Kimi past and glued himself to the gearbox of the Ferrari. What the hell was he supposed to do? Let Kimi past and give him two car lengths, too?

 

The FIA stewards are jokes. It was clean, hard racing. The only contact I saw was when Kimi tapped Hamilton at La Source. Perhaps they hit when Kimi pushed Hamilton off, but if so, incidental contact. Again, the stewards are jokes.

[f1anatic]

McLaren appeal

http://www.fia.com/belgiumgp/documents/BEL_08_Document_52.pdf

 

FIA decision

http://www.fia.com/belgiumgp/documents/BEL_08_Document_49.pdf

 

i think it was unfair, but then in all fairness, there was an advantage to be gained. And Hamilton retook Kimmoid right away on the next straight, had it been a lap later, he would not have been investigated.

[f1anatic]

Video

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M]YouTube - Lewis Cuts chicane?[/ame]

[f1anatic]

http://colunas.globoesporte.com/files/148/2008/09/hamilton_kimi_blog.jpg

[KartRacerBoy]

McLaren's telemetry shows Lewis 6 mph slower over the start/finish line. I don't know what the exact language of the rule is, I cannot fathom, having let Kimi past, having been side by side in the chicane b4 Kimi pushed Lewis off, the FIA can say Lewis gained an advantage by going off, letting Kimi by, and then by braking better.

 

I mean, how stupid does the FIA think the world is?

[f1anatic]

6 mph > 6 kph

 

McLaren contends that its data showed that after lifting to let Raikkonen back through, Hamilton was 6km/h (4mph) slower than the Ferrari as they crossed the start/finish line.

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43860

 

Lewis fanbois...should see that Louise was not pushed off anywhere. He got a harsh - too harsh of a penalty...but he should have been penalized. Not his first doing of this kind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0xiGkc1yBY&eurl=http://www.f1zone.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=3142&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=1365

[KartRacerBoy]

How was he not pushed off? He was side by side and Kimi drove him off the edge of the road. No contact, but if Lewis didn't go off (and don't tell me KR didn't know he was there), they would've made contact. As I said b4, I think the move was hard but fair, but Kimi made him go off. He could've given him room but he chose not to. This was the result.

 

Lewis just maximized the situation and was smarter than Kimi. The rule has been if you gain a place by going off track, let the other guy repass and situation solved. Lewis did exactly that but being smarter than most, he then attacked again and gained the spot back.

[f1anatic]

watch the first videos again. I seriously hope, that you do not actually believe that anyone other than Kimmi had the racing line. Overzealous overtaking attempt, Louie cut the chicane on his own making. But that aside, he did not properly back up. I find it harsh, but just.

[KartRacerBoy]

Kimi was slightly ahead but Lewis had his front wheel half way up the Ferrari. And Kimi just drove to the outside of the track. Have you raced? Do you seriously think Kimi didn't know Lewis was right next to him. He pushed him off the track to maintain his advantage!

 

So Lewis let him ahead again which is what the FIA has always required. They have not required someone to give up car lengths as well. If that's the rule, right it down so people know it. Don't be arbitrary and capricious and make it up as you go along. That's not rule making -- that's idiocy.

[PhilT]

Watching the in car video shows how pathetic the ruling is.

 

Lewis clearly let Kimi past after his short cut, and Kimi was dead ahead of him for a fraction before they both shimmied and Lewis went past again.

 

The McLaren obviously had superior handling as soon as it started to rain, that's why Lewis caught Kimi so quickly at the end, and out braked him to pass him for the second time.

 

If it the stewards thought it unfair, Lewis should have been told to let him past one more time again, and he would still have been able to get past him a 3rd time.

 

It's nothing to do with "fan boy", it's called being fair.

[LGT_Ltd_wagon]

When the driver reentered the track from the escape road he should allow who ever he "passed" to be in front. Not reenter the track at full racing speed and then decide when you will "let" the driver that should be in front of you "pass" you back. This is why he was penalized.

As far as being forced off in the corner when you are going for an outside pass the driver being passed doesn't have to change their line to allow you to pass unless you are clearly in front.

I'm a fan of Lewis but you could see he was flustered answering Peter Windsor Question regarding the incident in the Press Conference

 

Jib

[KartRacerBoy]

I'm a fan of both Kimi and Lewis. Both are the kind of drivers that can come from the back of a pack. I don't think either did anything wrong.

[camber]

Lewis was fair as he could be in such challenging conditions. It was a complete BS decision.

 

Also, I find it quite odd that Ferrari weren't the ones that decided had an issue with the pass. It was stewards that decided to invetigate the pass and no other team(including Ferrari) asked for the pass to be investigated.

[camber]

Have the stewards made an error of fact?

 

monday 8th september 2008

 

http://www.planet-f1.com/images/248181.jpg

 

 

either lewis hamilton was punished for leaving the racetrack or he was punished for gaining an advantage when he did so. The stewards have got themselves into a muddle for claiming it was both...

 

the three race stewards who imposed a 25-second race penalty against lewis hamilton have raised more questions than answers - and possibly erred in legal judgement - in declaring that they punished the mclaren driver for leaving the racetrack by describing it as 'fact' that he gained an advantage when cutting the chicane.

 

Refusing to publicly explain their decision, the three stewards - nicholas deschaux, surinder thatthi and yves bacquelain - instead opted to announce their ruling in a press release through the fia.

 

Short on words, the statement, which began by confirming that the 'stewards determine a breach of the regulations has been committed', listed as 'fact' that hamilton 'cut the chicane and gained an advantage' and specified as 'offence' the 'breach of article 30.3 (a) of the 2008 formula one sporting regulations and appendix l chapter 4 article 2 (g) of the international sporting code.'

 

while post-race debate focused almost exclusively on whether hamilton had gained an advantage when he cut the chicane and if he then surrendered it, the 'offence' for which the stewards declared he had been punished made the issue totally irrelevant.

 

Article 30.3 (a) of the 2008 formula one sporting regulations' makes no mention of whether an advantage had been gained and instead states that 'during practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the provisions of the code relating to driving behaviour on circuits'. The near-identical appendix l chapter 4 article 2 (g) of the international sporting code adds that 'the racetrack alone shall be used by drivers during the race'.

 

In other words, hamilton was purely and simply punished for leaving the racetrack when he cut the chicane.

 

Such a vague and all-encompassing stipulation in the rulebook gives the stewards considerable latitude. In effect, it allows them to punish any and every driver in the field on every occasion they leave the tarmac. However, given that hamilton was far from being alone in leaving the race track on sunday then their decision to focus exclusively on the mclaren driver's whereabouts is bound, once again, to prompt talk of bias and witch-hunts.

 

Were the stewards to have been inclined to maintain a consistent line then they would, for instance, have had to punish kimi raikkonen for leaving the racetrack at the pouhon corner as he strived to retake the lead. Likewise, nico rosberg, with whom both hamilton and raikkonen nearly crashed before the finn temporarily regained the lead of the race as he overtook both cars under a yellow flag, should, if the stewards' application of the rules was consistent, have suffered an identical punishment to hamilton for sliding off the track and on to the grass.

 

Technically, as the team cannot dispute that hamilton left the racetrack, the citation of articles 30.3 (a) and chapter 4 article 2 (g) leave mclaren with no room for manoeuvre or appeal.

 

However, their legal team is instead bound to focus upon the line in the stewards' ruling that reads 'fact - cut the chicane and gained an advantage'. In fact, the question of whether hamilton gained an advantage remains a matter of dispute rather than 'fact' - the only 'fact' is that it is the stewards' opinion that hamilton gained an advantage. By claiming otherwise, and seemingly basing their right to impose a penalty upon their claimed 'fact', the stewards may have made an error that will enable mclaren to contest their ruling.

 

For while mclaren cannot argue against the fact that hamilton left the track, they can argue against the assertion that it is a fact he gained an advantage and the rights of the stewards to claim it is a fact and act accordingly. Were the stewards to be found wrong in doing so then the legitimacy - as well as the accuracy - of their ruling would then have to be called into fresh question.

 

pete gill

 

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3265_4116523,00.html

[f1anatic]

planet-f1 is a ludicrous F1 site.

 

He gained an advantage by immediately overtaking following a deliberate track excursion which saw him first overtake then immediately tuck behind the rightful leader and overtaking at the next corner. One action lead to another. Hamilton fanbois should really just realize that hamilton made a rush decision and instead should have waited till the top of Eau Rouge (or next corner) to overtake. Nobody would have even raised an eyebrow.

[KartRacerBoy]

planet-f1 is a ludicrous F1 site.

 

He gained an advantage by immediately overtaking following a deliberate track excursion which saw him first overtake then immediately tuck behind the rightful leader and overtaking at the next corner. One action lead to another. Hamilton fanbois should really just realize that hamilton made a rush decision and instead should have waited till the top of Eau Rouge (or next corner) to overtake. Nobody would have even raised an eyebrow.

 

f1anatic, your constant use of Lewis fanbois is really quite ludicrous given your Ferrari fanbois. I'm told even your underroos are Ferrari red. But seriously, Lewis' move on the outside of the chicane was ambitious, but he was halfway up on Kimi when Kimi forced him off. When Lewis got back on track he was ahead of Kimi and then relinquished the lead but glued himself to Kimi's gearbox. So he gained no advantage compared to where he went off track.

 

Massa's blog says: "Incidents like this have often been discussed in the official driver briefings when it has been made absolutely clear that anyone cutting a chicane has to fully restore the position and also any other eventual advantage gained." I think Lewis did that since he was side by side with Kimi when he went off and he pulled right behind him and then outbraked Kimi. I don't see how any unbiased (ie, non Ferrari fanbois ) observer could rationally say otherwise.