Direct MP3 connection without the head unit?

[AWDFan]

One of the few things holding me back on the purchase of a Legacy GT Limited is not being able to connect my MP3 player into the audio system. This is important to me because I spend a lot of time commuting in my car. In my current car I am using a hard-wired FM modulator daisy-chained into the antenna connection, and I am disappointed with the sound quality. The FM unit introduces very noticeable distortion at higher frequencies and volumes (even with the HU volume set low, as I don't blast my stereo like the local kids in their riced up Cavaliers and Civics). So now I'm only considering direct-wire options without FM modulators. Centerpunch's "iPod direct connection" method as described in the sticky thread in this forum is ok, but I really don't want to hack up the stereo in a brand new $30k car. However, his alternate idea of bypassing the HU and running a separate amp in parallel for the MP3 player interests me. How feasible would it be to run a separate amp that connects in with the existing speakers (which I'd probably replace with aftermarket speakers anyway)? What type of components would I need (amp features/specs, etc.)? Somewhere you'd have to have a switch to select between the HU and MP3 sources going to the speakers. Would you run the HU into the amp (with a LOC) and switch at the amp's input, or run the amp and HU in parallel and switch on the amp's output? (I presume the former, since it'd be a pain to switch all the speaker wire sets on the output of the amp.) Is there room behind the dash somewhere to install a separate amp? Also, would it be possible to have an "auto" switch that selects the MP3 source if it detects a real signal from the MP3 side, otherwise it selects the HU? Or would you have to have a toggle switch? (I can live with the toggle switch as that is what I use now to select between MP3 vs. antenna input.) I know some newer FM modulators can do this, I'm just wondering if there is a discreet part that does the same job. I have some basic knowledge of electronics and audio stuff in general, but i don't know that much about car audio specifics, so I am hoping somebody here can weigh in on this issue. I can perform the installation but I'm not sure how to design the system (although I'd consider a local audio shop for the work if the price were reasonable). Any suggestions?

[GTWag]

I would be interested in more info too!

[AWDFan]

Well, no other replies so far, but after a bit more digging I think there is hope. There are some nice goodies at [url]http://www.davidnavone.com/index.htm[/url], which I found from a link somewhere. In particular, there is an A/B voltage sensitive switch (N-806) like I was hoping for. He also has the "best LOC in the world", the four-channel NE-774V for only $35. The AMP-100 might also be interesting, although it's only a two-channel model. Seems like good value for the money if his performance claims are accurate. The switch apparently uses pre-amp levels, so I am thinking a workable system might use the MP3 player into one side of the switch, HU into the other. Then after the switch comes an amp that drives the speakers. But there are some issues to resolve. The HU presumably can output four channels, but the switch only appears to support two channels per A/B side. It seems like to make it work with these components, you'd have to mix/bridge the front and rear HU outputs for each side into a single channel, which is not particularly appealing. I might see if I can contact Dave Navone, or at least get some feedback on carsound.com (another great site I just found). Apparently the forums on that site attract a lot of professional installers. If I come up with something, I'll post back here.

[usaplanb]

Glad you found this info. I was thinking the same thing you were, but couldn't find a switch or volume control, so this is really good to know. I'm def. interested to hear if you find anything out.

[usaplanb]

Just remembered... I have the factory sub installed too, so any thoughts on how I would integrate this into the system. Do i need another amp, or how do I get output to the sub? I keep running into little problems when i try to plan out how this will work

[AWDFan]

[quote name='usaplanb']Just remembered... I have the factory sub installed too, so any thoughts on how I would integrate this into the system. Do i need another amp, or how do I get output to the sub? [/QUOTE] Actually, that's a good question. I was wondering about that myself but forgot to mention it in my previous post. If I can find anyone who knows car audio to help me on this issue, I'll ask about the sub too.

[Mindflayer]

You chain of thought follows mine. I am concerned about locating and fitting in the components. Let me know how your research goes!

[AWDFan]

I just got my login and posting access authorized on carsound.com so I can post some questions there. In the mean time, I have a question for you guys. Does anyone here know how the factory sub (for those who have it) is wired into the system? My understanding is that the usual method is to have a crossover that splits the main inputs into the standard four speakers and the sub. But I suppose the crossover could be built into the HU, with a separate line from the HU going straight to the sub. Also, what about the tweeters in the upgraded 6-speaker system? I would think they'd be fed off the front speaker signals using a crossover, but I really don't know how Subaru designed their system.

[Need4Speed]

Don't let the MP3 connectivity issue stop you from getting the LGT. I had an aftermarket MP3 system in my previous car and I thought I could never live without it. Well... here I am burning regular CDs from my MP3 files and waiting for the aftermarket (or some of the geniuses here) to come up with some good solutions for adding audio equipment to the LGT. I hope you get some good answers soon to your questions.

[Magowin]

I'm debating on getting a portable MP3 player and getting a Belkin Tunecast II wireless FM modulator or the Sony Xplod 565RF 10 disk changer and hardwiring in the RF modulator.

[usaplanb]

Ok... I might end up running into problems, but I decided to give this setup a shot. I just ordered the NE-8V LOC, N-806 switch, and the N-22V volume control, along with a kenwood 4 channel amp. The NE-8V is only a 2 channel LOC, but since the switch is only 2 channels, it didn't make sense to have the 4 channel LOC. So I'm just going to set my the HU's fader to front, and use the front speaker outputs... small compromise. Then I'll have the switch between the iPod and the LOC output (and the volume control is for the iPod). The switch will connect to channel A on the amp. The amp has a setting to send 2 input channels into 4 speakers to fix that issue. Only question is how the factory sub is going to get into this whole mess... apparently it gets its signal from the rear speaker lines. That'll be the last priority. I'll probably do the install in a couple weeks (damn final exams) and post the results.

[PGT]

[quote name='AWDFan']Well, no other replies so far, but after a bit more digging I think there is hope. There are some nice goodies at [url]http://www.davidnavone.com/index.htm[/url], which I found from a link somewhere. In particular, there is an A/B voltage sensitive switch (N-806) like I was hoping for. He also has the "best LOC in the world", the four-channel NE-774V for only $35. The AMP-100 might also be interesting, although it's only a two-channel model. Seems like good value for the money if his performance claims are accurate. The switch apparently uses pre-amp levels, so I am thinking a workable system might use the MP3 player into one side of the switch, HU into the other. Then after the switch comes an amp that drives the speakers. But there are some issues to resolve. The HU presumably can output four channels, but the switch only appears to support two channels per A/B side. It seems like to make it work with these components, you'd have to mix/bridge the front and rear HU outputs for each side into a single channel, which is not particularly appealing. I might see if I can contact Dave Navone, or at least get some feedback on carsound.com (another great site I just found). Apparently the forums on that site attract a lot of professional installers. If I come up with something, I'll post back here.[/QUOTE] David Navone and Richard Clark are two gurus of the 12 volt audio world. They have a solid rep as engineers and can be trusted with their advice. Definitely let us know what feedback you have about using the inline preamp to allow the iPod signal - I have all the audio gear ready and waiting (except the LOC's, etc). But, I will have to fight over the iPod as my girlfriend is picking up her MINI Cooper S tomorrow and it has an AUX in for the iPod. Hmm....Christmas present maybe?

[AWDFan]

[quote name='usaplanb']I just ordered the NE-8V LOC, N-806 switch, and the N-22V volume control, along with a kenwood 4 channel amp. The NE-8V is only a 2 channel LOC, but since the switch is only 2 channels, it didn't make sense to have the 4 channel LOC. So I'm just going to set my the HU's fader to front, and use the front speaker outputs... small compromise.[/QUOTE] Excellent! I was trying to figure out how to use all four speaker channels out of the HU, but I like the simplicity of your idea. After all, the front and rear speakers on each side should be getting the same signal anyway (before fader adjustment). [quote name='usaplanb'] Then I'll have the switch between the iPod and the LOC output (and the volume control is for the iPod). The switch will connect to channel A on the amp. The amp has a setting to send 2 input channels into 4 speakers to fix that issue.[/QUOTE] When you say the volume control is for the iPod, you mean that it's to balance the two inputs to the switch (namely, the LOC and iPod)? If so, wouldn't you probably need it on the LOC side instead? I'd guess that the iPod puts out a lower voltage signal the the LOC (which goes up to 9V according to the Navone site), but I could be wrong. [quote name='usaplanb'] Only question is how the factory sub is going to get into this whole mess... apparently it gets its signal from the rear speaker lines. That'll be the last priority. I'll probably do the install in a couple weeks (damn final exams) and post the results.[/QUOTE] Hmm, if the factory sub gets its signal from the rear speaker lines, wouldn't that imply a crossover (and maybe another amp) in there somewhere? Does the sub have an extra amp or power line running to it? If you're not planning to rewire the sub connection, or replace it entirely, why not just let your add-in amp run it off the rear speakers like it already does? Then you only have to mess with wiring in the dash. Please keep us posted, and post pics of your install if you can. I'm especially interested in how you run the power for the amp. That sounds like the trickiest part. What's funny is I just noticed your location. It turns out that I live right between you and Patagonian GT (Germantown, MD), although I work closer to the latter (in Reston).

[usaplanb]

[quote]When you say the volume control is for the iPod, you mean that it's to balance the two inputs to the switch (namely, the LOC and iPod)? If so, wouldn't you probably need it on the LOC side instead? I'd guess that the iPod puts out a lower voltage signal the the LOC (which goes up to 9V according to the Navone site), but I could be wrong.[/quote] This is where i'm a little confused. Does the LOC adjust its input to a fixed level? If so, does this mean I can not use my HU's volume control. I was thinking (possibly incorrectly, since I'm not a car audio whiz) that I would be able to adjust the HU's volume using the volume control on the head unit, but I also needed a way to adjust the ipod's volume into the amplifier (since I'm going to use the fixed level line output, not the headphone jack), so that was what I was going to use the volume contol (N22-V) for. I'm hoping i'm not wrong here, otherwise i may end up having to order more little goodies. [quote]Hmm, if the factory sub gets its signal from the rear speaker lines, wouldn't that imply a crossover (and maybe another amp) in there somewhere? Does the sub have an extra amp or power line running to it? If you're not planning to rewire the sub connection, or replace it entirely, why not just let your add-in amp run it off the rear speakers like it already does? Then you only have to mess with wiring in the dash. Please keep us posted, and post pics of your install if you can. I'm especially interested in how you run the power for the amp. That sounds like the trickiest part.[/quote] That's a good call with the sub. I'm probably going to leave it as it is. It is a powered sub (amp and sub in one little black box under driver's seat), and I'm guessing there's a crossover built into it. The power for the amp is what I'm most worried about, simply because this is the first time I've taken apart my car and added or changed anything electrical, so I'm going to be taking advantage of this forum and my more electrically inclined friends to help with this part. I don't think it is terribly difficult in the end, though. If I do run into trouble, or just get fed up, I'll have a professional run the power to the amp for me. I'm really excited to get started on this, but exams will probably keep me from getting to this for about 2 weeks (hopefully I'll be alive after that too)... although there is a good chance that the amplifier next to my desk will talk me into starting early. Once i get going, I'll be sure to keep you updated. Again, this kinda thing is a first for me, so feel free to chime in with suggestions, or tell me how bad i messed up, etc. Thanks for the feedback...

[AWDFan]

[quote name='usaplanb']This is where i'm a little confused. Does the LOC adjust its input to a fixed level? If so, does this mean I can not use my HU's volume control. I was thinking (possibly incorrectly, since I'm not a car audio whiz) that I would be able to adjust the HU's volume using the volume control on the head unit, but I also needed a way to adjust the ipod's volume into the amplifier (since I'm going to use the fixed level line output, not the headphone jack), so that was what I was going to use the volume contol (N22-V) for. I'm hoping i'm not wrong here, otherwise i may end up having to order more little goodies. [/QUOTE] I believe the LOC is essentially a transformer, which allows you to trade off voltage for current. In the case of the LOC, the high-level input voltage is stepped down to a lower level pre-amp voltage (with a commensurate gain in current to conserve the total power). The in/out ratio is determined by the transformer coils (which is presumably fixed), which means the output voltage should fluctuate linearly with the input voltage. So unless the LOC is doing some fancy voltage regulation to keep a particular output level, the HU volume knob should work the LOC output voltage just fine (assuming you don't clip). It looks like the Navone LOC has L and R level adjustment pots built in, so I don't think it is auto-leveling. As for the volume control on the iPod side, my only concern is whether the volume control is necessary. The volume control only allows you to turn the voltage down. I suspect the iPod's line out will be too low compared to the LOC output, so the iPod would sound quiet compared to the HU even without using the volume control. That's why I suggested putting the volume control on the LOC side, to bring the HU's signal down to match the iPod. It may be that the level control on the LOC is enough to do this by itself, but I don't really know for sure. I think you will definitely have to play with the system a bit after it's assembled to find the right balance of component settings. The HU volume knob should allow you to control the HU sound volume, but you'll have to use the iPod's volume control to adjust it's output level. Hmm, _unless_ you use the volume control box _after_ the switch so that it can adjust levels on both sources (assuming they're already balanced going into the switch). But using the volume control box for general volume control may not be convenient from the user's perspective unless you mount it somewhere easy to reach and run the cables all over. That doesn't sound very appealing to me. As for the sub, I don't have any personal experience to offer you. However, if you're not already familiar with wire gauge and fuse sizing I'd suggest reading a bit on [url="http://www.bcae1.com/"]http://www.bcae1.com/[/url]. That site will help you figure out what gauge wire and size fuse the amp power line would need (and where to place the fuse, which is as close to the battery as possible). If you're replacing the existing powered sub you might theoretically get away with using its power line, but I'd guess it's probably not rated for the amount of current that an after market sub would require.

[usaplanb]

So basically, my car is a mess right now, and my hands are missing some skin. Running wires has been the most time consuming part, and considering I've never pulled my car aparat, this is certainly an adventure. Still, I've managed to take out the rear seat, run wires from the cargo area up to the front of the car and into the area around the head unit. There's a lot of crap that needs to be run. The things holding me up now are finding a place to run the amp power line throught the firewall (although I think people have mentioned it here a lot for boost gage installation), and I also need to figure out how to hook up the amp turn on wire. I'd like to have it turn the amp on when the car is on, but I really have no idea what I need to plug that into to make it work. The other one to figure out is for the switch, which I guess will just connect to the HU's power cable to tell it when to switch one way or the other. If you happen to have specific info on what to do with the amp turn on cable, or any other stuff, please don't hesitate to help me out! Anyway, I'll keep you posted and if I figure out how to put up pictures, I'll show you a few of my messy car.

[AWDFan]

So don't keep us in suspense! How did your install go? Got it finished?

[usaplanb]

Sorry for not posting in a while... I was on a family vacation to florida that lasted a bit too long. Anyway, I may have gotten myself in over my head. I've run most of the wiring to where it needs to go, but I'm having trouble getting into the engine compartment for the amp power cable. In addition, i'm not sure I trust myself to wire the amp turn on cable. These I may go have professionally installed (anyone know of anywhere good in central to northern NJ area?), but the rest of the wires are set. I think I'm going to keep the iPod in the little compartment above the radio, along with the volume control. The amp is going in the trunk since there's no room for it anywhere else. The wiring can be seen in the picture. It goes under the rear seat, under the carpeting and under the center console up into the dash area. While it required taking out a few very stubborn plastic plugs, getting under the carpet wasn't too bad. For the amp ground, I attached it with one of the bolts in the rear seat assembly, which bolts to the frame. Seemed like a good place for it. Now I just wish I decided to study electrical engineering. The pictures were taken a week or so ago, but not much has changed. Kinda getting fed up with this... at least the car still drives the same

[AWDFan]

I hope you had a good vacation. My vacation was too short because my wife and I were sick all Christmas weekend. I'm still just getting over a nasty head cold. Anyway, it's looking good. Thanks for the pics! :) Have you actually hooked up the system all together yet? One thing I thought of but forgot to mention before was to suggest hooking up the whole system (as much as possible) before running all the wires everywhere to make sure it works. Otherwise you run the wires and if something doesn't work you don't know if it's an installation problem or a design problem. I guess that's academic now, although you could still run the amp cable through the window and under the propped-up hood for a quick hook-up just to test the system. I'm really curious to know how well the components you spec'ed out work. Also, I'd say if you really feel uncomfortable about some aspect, take it to a professional installer. It's worth the money to not make a major screw-up on a new car. As for myself, I found out today that it's going to cost about $450 at the dealership to stop my SL2's engine from leaking coolant (bad intake gasket, apparently). The temptation to trade my car in for a new Subaru is strong right now, but I'll think I'll spend the cash to keep the old car running for a few more months. Besides, I'll hit 100k miles very soon. :rolleyes:

[usaplanb]

Well, I found what seems to be a very skilled audio installer in the area, and the guy who helped me went over everthing with me about what I was doing. He was really helpful, but while the idea sounds good in principle, he seemed skeptical that the gains will work out in the end, in addition to noise issues. It could work, but he seems to want to investigate other options. I told him about centerpunch's direct connection idea, so I may give him my HU for a few days to see if he thinks he can wire it up. In any event, it'll work out one way or another. I may just end up with an amp though that I have to sell :-(

[IwannaSportSedan]

usaplanb, Does your amp have speaker level inputs? Otherwise could you get a 4 channel LOC? That way if your audio installer does mod your head unit, just run the HU's outputs to the amps (through LOCs if need be) and have more power going to your speakers. More power will let the stereo play cleaner and easier at almost all volume levels. Then you are getting your money out of your amp, and more effortless sound quality. So it will go in a line from ipod->HU->Amp->spkrs. instead of your original plan of switching ipod vs. HU both into amp, then speakers. I am hoping for the satelite selector to come into play with some sort of input option there. Damned limited upgradability... Why are car manufacturers so willing to cut off aftermarket audio upgrade routes, when they don't offer the options at all, in the first place? [/Rant]

[usaplanb]

Well, I just spoke w/ my installer (Gino's in Piscataway, NJ), and my car's done. Sadly my parents picked it up and my friend is bringing it down this weekend, since I had to go back to school before it was finished... so I can't report w/ any pictures or specifics. All I know is that the installer sounded very proud of himself for figuring out the direct connection (he does a ton of work on porche's, maserati's, and other super pricey cars... who'da thought a little subaru would cause so much trouble). He said he ended up making a new ribbon cable too so that, if necessary, I could just plug the old one back in and no one would know it had been modified. He also threw in a switch to flip between CD and ipod inputs. In any event, it cost me about $400, but it sounds like he did an awesome job. I should tell him to start producing these ribbon cables... he'd make a fortune on this site. IwannaSportSedan- My amp does have speaker level inputs, although i've been told that the ones integrated into the amp are pretty crappy, so if i was to use the amp, i'd go w/ the LOC (i have a 2 channel one that i was going to use). I could still wire up the amp, which is a bit more powerful than the stock stereo, but it really isn't big enough of an amp to make a big difference (Kenwood KAC-6401 30W x 4 channels... kinda wimpy). I was always pretty happy with the stock sound quality to begin with (the factory sub seems to help out quite a bit). Anyway, when I get my car back, I'll give you more of details on the setup, and if I don't feel too lazy, i'll take it apart and post some pictures up here. Oh, and is anyone interested in an opened but never used Kenwood KAC-6401... I got it for about $110 from etronics.com. I'd sell it for $140 shipped (within US) with monster cable amp wiring kit if anyone's interested. also have a lot of stuff from navone enginnering that i listed on previous pages if anyone's interested.

[AWDFan]

[quote name='usaplanb'] In any event, it cost me about $400, but it sounds like he did an awesome job. I should tell him to start producing these ribbon cables... he'd make a fortune on this site. [/QUOTE] No kidding! If it's it's as good as it sounds (no pun intended), I might be interested in one at that price point. Did he give you any idea how long an install would take, if he had to do it over again? I could maybe drive up to Jersey for a Saturday day trip if he could do it during the course of a single day. Of course, I'd need to have the car first, which might be put on hold for a while since I'm now looking to buy a new house. [quote name='usaplanb'] Anyway, when I get my car back, I'll give you more of details on the setup, and if I don't feel too lazy, i'll take it apart and post some pictures up here. [/QUOTE] Please do! I'd be curious to know more about this switch to flip between CD and ipod inputs (how it's located/mounted) and how the sound quality is overall.

[usaplanb]

He didn't tell me much about it... said he spent about four hours figuring some stuff out, but that may have been fabricating this ribbon... and if he had to do it again, he wouldn't need to do all the reverse engineering. I'm gonna give him a call once i get my car back and ask him about what was involved and tell him there's a lot of people that would love to have this done. Where are you from by the way? He's in piscataway, NJ, which is kinda central northern-ish jersey. I could tell you how far the trip might be. Can't wait til sunday night and i get to see it!

[AWDFan]

[quote name='usaplanb']Where are you from by the way? He's in piscataway, NJ, which is kinda central northern-ish jersey. I could tell you how far the trip might be. Can't wait til sunday night and i get to see it![/QUOTE] Oops, I should set the location in my user preferences. I'm in Germantown, Montgomery County (about 1 hour's drive to the SW corner of the Baltimore beltway).