Results of the 05 S4 (auto) vs. LGT (manual)...

[Driver72]

Well, first let me say this is the results from this thread I posted: [url]http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4906[/url] Now let me say, basically everyone underestimated the LGT, or overestimated, the Audi S4 (6 speed auto tip). Because all of you who said the LGT will get spanked was WAY wrong! I had 705 miles on my car, he had 804 miles. I wanted to wait until after we had 1000 miles but he's getting his intake and exhaust installed Monday so it was now or never running the cars stock vs. stock. Again, since I knew I'd get him from a dead stop having a manual, we went from a roll. We found a deserted road that was just over a 1/4 mile long from the end to a sharp corner. We pulled up next to each other at the end of the road. And said okay here we go. I left the line medium hard and jumped 1/2 car length, then waited for him to pull up alongside, when he did, we nailed it at the same time. And I have NEVER had a more perfectly matched "race" in all my days. We ran door to door from 10-15 mph all the way to 90ish ( I think I was at about the top of third), when we had to break for the corner. At ANY point through the run we could look over at each other through our windows and be DEAD even. He couldn't believe it. He said he was in tiptronic mode and hitting the up shift at 6000 or so rpms so it would shift by 6500 rpm's But after looking at the stats I realized why. Audi S4 (auto) weight: 3925 pounds LGT-L (manual) weight: 3365 Audi S4 power: 340 hp / 302 tq LGT power: 250 hp / 250 tq Audi S4 Hp power to weight: 11.544 Legacy hp power to weight: 13.46 Audi S4 Tq power to weight: 12.996 Legacy Tq power to weight: 13.46 But he has an auto tranny, I have a manual. So his power to weight is pretty much nullified. And I think our cars might be underrated by 5-10 hp and 10-15 ft-lbs of torque Also, we did this run at about 1800-2000 feet in elevation. Giving me a slight advantage due to the turbo. Had we been at sea level, he'd of probably pulled maybe a 1/2 car length on me from that same 15-90ish mph run. All in all guys, our cars go FASTER than some think, even though they don't FEEL like it. I wanted to try a 3rd gear roll from say 50 to 100+ mph, but we couldn't find a long, straight, flat enough road, that was safe enough to do it in the area where we were.

[deimos]

I figured 5 spd LGT vs Auto S4 would be very close, thought LGT might even pull a bit, but 5spd LGT vs. standard S4 and no contest big-spankin :)

[alostsok]

With all due respect to everyone (and my 05 LGT 5-speed), in terms of performance, the S4 is a better car. One of my relatives owns the 05 S4 wagon triptronic.. Maybe your friend should have thrown the shifter into the "S" mode and not played with the paddles, and the car would have done a much better job than he did. From a roll and from a start.. I drove the wagon for plenty of time when I went back home, and that car is faster than mine. It doesn't thrust you back like the old ones did (I used to own an 00 S4), but it's faster. Not to mention the handling and suspension, both of which are also superior to the LGT. Not to be hatin' or anything, but the S4 is one of the cars that I accepted as superior to mine :) with the shifter in "s", it's a freakin' monster

[Guest JessterCPA]

I would hope it's superior. Its practically twice the price. You get all the amenities, quattro, and 340hp to boot. Sounds superior to me.

[alostsok]

and just to make an even stronger assertion (and to get bitched out even more :) ) I went from my 2000 S4 to the LGT for their similarities on paper (250/250 output on both, AWD, etc.) I am very happy with my car, but the LGT is slower than even a stock B5 S4 (02 and older). Although their power ratings are identical there's is a significant difference in the power curve when the 250hp/250tq comes from a slightly larger V6 (2.7) and two turbos. I know I'l get disagreements on this, but I'm talking purely from my own experience. If I could get another B5 S4 with no miles and at least 3year/36K warranty for the exact same price as my LGT, I would pick the S4. Let the flaming being :P

[ellivnad]

There is a lot to be said about percieved speed as well. Different suspensions, ride heights, field of view out the windows, exterior environment, power curve, road/engine noise, will all effect how fast the car feels. Without driving the cars side by side or using instruments its hard to say which is faster. I think you are probably right though, had he been in sport mode the S4 might have slightly pulled on him.

[05LegacyGT330Ci]

[quote name='alostsok']and just to make an even stronger assertion (and to get bitched out even more :) ) I went from my 2000 S4 to the LGT for their similarities on paper (250/250 output on both, AWD, etc.) I am very happy with my car, but the LGT is slower than even a stock B5 S4 (02 and older). Although their power ratings are identical there's is a significant difference in the power curve when the 250hp/250tq comes from a slightly larger V6 (2.7) and two turbos. I know I'l get disagreements on this, but I'm talking purely from my own experience. If I could get another B5 S4 with no miles and at least 3year/36K warranty for the exact same price as my LGT, I would pick the S4. Let the flaming being :P[/QUOTE] And yet none of the numbers give evidence to your claim. Handling and braking I would hope it would be better but acceleration has been proven to be even if not worse, I have yet to see better times from the B5. Oh yah and the B5 S4 Avant used to be one of my "dream" cars, the RS4 was the real dream though :( Song of Post- Led Zeppelin- Gallows Pole

[Deer Killer]

[quote name='alostsok']Let the flaming being :P[/QUOTE] It's your money.

[alostsok]

oh yeah, it is: that's why I bought a new LGT ;)

[RobY]

[quote name='05LegacyGT330Ci']And yet none of the numbers give evidence to your claim. Handling and braking I would hope it would be better but acceleration has been proven to be even if not worse, I have yet to see better times from the B5. Oh yah and the B5 S4 Avant used to be one of my "dream" cars, the RS4 was the real dream though :( Song of Post- Led Zeppelin- Gallows Pole[/QUOTE] Agreed the B5 feels faster because of its fat starting torque. However In acceleration stock for stock it cannot match the Legacy given equal drivers. Stock B5 S4's dyno around 175-185 whp on the dynos I have seen. The Legacy is lighter and dynos on average 20hp more. Objectively comparing performance numbers the legacy exceeds the performance of the B5 S4 eventhough it may not FEEL like it.

[alostsok]

i won't object :)

[SC GT]

[quote name='alostsok']I know I'l get disagreements on this, but I'm talking purely from my own experience. If I could get another B5 S4 with no miles and at least 3year/36K warranty for the exact same price as my LGT, I would pick the S4. Let the flaming being :P[/QUOTE] Wow, don't go too far out on a limb with your controversial opinions. :rolleyes:

[deimos]

[quote name='RobY'] Objectively comparing performance numbers the legacy exceeds the performance of the B5 S4 eventhough it may not FEEL like it.[/QUOTE] Well put..I think that this applies to a lot of discussions on this forum regarding cars "feeling" faster, the only way to really tell is a timeslip or instrumentation. Especially when you have a lux vehicle made to feel smooth and controlled that betrays the speed you are actually travelling at.

[John M]

Un-do Subaru's boost programming with a MBC and watch how much low end torque you can add. It makes a night and day difference in how the car drives in everyday situations. And for those counting, my car has been at 17 psi for about 2500 miles :D

[wunderkind]

one thing with the S4 that the LGT will not do better is to increase your relationship with your dealership mechanic. ;)

[Beanboy]

Been there and done that with an older S4. Beat him by not all that much, but it was consistent. His heated seats never worked right, his HVAC controls are flickering, and when I saw how much it costs to replace the timing belt, I almost asked if he was serious. Is it true you have to pull the whole front clip off to change the timing belt? Luckily his turbos are okay, heard the whole engine has to be dropped for those...is that true? Gotta love the Germans, engineering for engineering sake, hehe. Actually, it was his experience as well as some of those with E36 M3s that turned me off from going the used German performance sedan route. I get AWD and a wagon body to boot. -B

[evolutionmovement]

I used to like German cars until I had to work on them and became familiar with VW's major problems including substandard wiring and engine failures. Now to top it off, I think most of them are damn ugly (not that the Germans have cornered the market on that to be fair). Porsche no longer excites me either, which is too bad, but that's what happens when you don't do anything special for decades. Another few years and they'll almost be like Morgan. Blindfolded chimps could work on a Subaru and the parts are cheaper than some American cars. I've always had fun in my Subarus (even the ones with 73 HP) while I've never gotten excited by the M-B and VW/Audis I've driven and that's the stuff that matters to me rather than some incidental acceleration numbers (though it looks like Subaru's got that too). Steve

[RobY]

[quote name='Beanboy']Been there and done that with an older S4. Beat him by not all that much, but it was consistent. His heated seats never worked right, his HVAC controls are flickering, and when I saw how much it costs to replace the timing belt, I almost asked if he was serious. Is it true you have to pull the whole front clip off to change the timing belt? Luckily his turbos are okay, heard the whole engine has to be dropped for those...is that true? Gotta love the Germans, engineering for engineering sake, hehe. Actually, it was his experience as well as some of those with E36 M3s that turned me off from going the used German performance sedan route. I get AWD and a wagon body to boot. -B[/QUOTE] The entire front clip has to be removed for a turbo swap. It usually take the average mechanic 1 week to swap the s4 turbos 1/2 a week if you are good. As not only the engine but the transmission needs to be pulled as one unit through the front of the car. You also have to dissasemble the front suspension just to get the engine/tranny out. Its pretty involved.... [url]http://www.msnusers.com/dirtymotorsports/s4ttswap.msnw[/url] The germans are great at designing in extra money as the k03's on the car like to explode (more so if chipped) providing thier dealers a weeks worth of revenue straight out of your pocket. [url]http://audiport.com/survey/turbo/turbo_result2.htm[/url] [url]http://audiport.com/survey/turbo/turbo_result.htm[/url] Whereas Ive done a turbo swap in a WRX in less than 1/2 hour with the heat sheilds off and air tools.

[wunderkind]

See, an S4 owner is a generous person. Why? He pays for a stranger's kids through college. :)

[jdanhires]

[quote name='Beanboy'] Is it true you have to pull the whole front clip off to change the timing belt? Luckily his turbos are okay, heard the whole engine has to be dropped for those...is that true? Gotta love the Germans, engineering for engineering sake, hehe. -B[/QUOTE] Yep. On my '97 A4 with the 2.8 you remove the front bumper and the the front subframe 'moves' to an outboard position (the a6's actually have a hinge to swing the front out). It gives about 8 inches to work on the front of the engine. I'm no mechanic, but it took em a good 8 hours to do it. Dealership wanted $1600 for it. Ouch. 3 months ago, the bolt that holds the serptine belt tensioner to my block sheard in half. I was able to extract the stub from the block without removing the front bumper, but replacing the belt was a PITA. They literally give you 2 inches of room. Here's the A6 timing belt replacement. [img]http://www.audiworld.com/tech/pics/eng39_3.jpg[/img] John

[javamon]

[quote name='Beanboy']Actually, it was his experience as well as some of those with E36 M3s that turned me off from going the used German performance sedan route. I get AWD and a wagon body to boot.[/QUOTE] Hmm, I think E36 M3's are quite a bit "better" on the service route than you give them credit for, but, they are "higher" maintence than most. But the thing is, BMW did make the E36 easy enough for a team of monkeys to work on, so that frequent preventitve matinence isn't hard to do yourself. Pick up a copy of bentley's, and you don't even have to guess on socket sizes or torques, let alone proceedures. Just don't take it to a dealer. However, I'll add to the S4 discussion (trashing?). I've got a friend who's got one...Blew a turbo (thanks to a loose line, tricking the computer into thinking the turbo was down on boost, and correspondingly, it ordering max boost all the time) so he decided to take the oppertunity to put k04's and a new tranny in (the old one was in the process of breaking). Took about 2.5 weeks after the turbos came in...went out, at 13psi (good for about 300-350...who knows really) and it did haul some ass. Sometime later he saw some fluid. Well, make that a lot. Tranny that Audi sent was leaking from quite a few places. Out of action for another few weeks... It was pretty quick while it lasted, made the m3 feel a bit slow by my ass's accelerometer, and I imagine once he turns it up to ~23psi, it'll be outright retarded (500hp is the target). But I figure it'll spend a large part of its life in a mechanic's care...

[05LegacyGT330Ci]

I wouldn't a car that made 500 hp when I could never drive it, call me silly maybe but I like to have something I can count on even if the power is less. Song of Post- Led Zeppelin- In The Light

[javamon]

I didn't say I did either, but it's sure fun to ride in when it's not yours...heh. I can't wait for a full boost run. Well, actually, I can, cause it's broken :p But yeah, that's why I didn't look for more than a few minutes at a stock S4 and why I bought an "old" m3 with low miles and only 240hp ;)

[05LegacyGT330Ci]

Perhaps its time for you to get some boost of your own, time to call AA Tuning and get a nice turbo kit on there hehe. Really though those kits are reliable from all accounts I've hard as long as you don't go silly with them. Song of Post- Led Zeppelin- Out On The Tiles

[javamon]

Haha, yeah, I wish. I have heard good things, like you said. A different rear end to get traction + 350hp or so...not much would be able to touch it. But alas, the budget isn't unlimited, I'm not jaded with the power yet, and it's not exactly slow as is. Someday, maybe, but I think I'm gonna first rice it out and put some HID's in the euro projectors I already picked up, so I can make it look like your 330 (in the dark :cool: ) Speaking of your 330, you could add some boost to it, too...