2005 Audi S4 (6 Tip Auto) vs. 05 LGT-L (5MT)

[Driver72]

So, I get a call from my buddy today telling me he finally did it, he got his 2005 Audi S4 (he knows the 2006 models are changing, but he likes the current body style better). A bit of background. 3-4 months ago he got a 2004 Audi A4 1.8T with the Ultra Sport Package and the 5 speed Tip Auto. He planned on modding it to the tune of Chipping, Intake, exhaust, brakes, and a few other things. He wanted at least 250 hp out of it. He got the auto because he was tired of a manual in LA traffic. He really wanted the S4 but wasn't ready for a few hundred bucks extra payment a month, not too mention the 15 mpg gas mileage. A month or so later when I got my 05 LGT Limited sedan with manual, he started talking about doing a few runs once his A4 is modded. He thought I got the auto, and once he heard I got a manual he knew even with the mods his A4 1.8T wouldn't stand a chance. Buyers remorse set in and he started longing for the S4. He kept talking about ditching his A4 (3 months after getting it) for the S4. He's also a camera operator, but he's on a hit primetime TV show so he can afford the trade in loss, and the payments of the S4. Well this week, he tells me he's getting the S4. I thought it would be a manual, but he said, with all the S4's power, and the S4 having a 6 speed auto tip, he didn't see a need for the manual. He said it's programed MUCH better than the A4's tip auto and shifts MUCH faster and smoother. Oh, by the way, he also got his new wife a 2005 VW Touareg V6 as well...she loved it, so he made a two car deal. So to get to my question, I've only seen performance stats on a S4 manual, nothing on the auto. Anybody know what they are. Audi states a 0-60 time of 5.6 seconds on the auto. They state a 0-60 time of 5.3 for the manual, but a couple tests have gotten 5.0 flat for it and 13.4's at 102-103 mph. So, I'm guessing, stock for stock, it would be a driver's race. Except from a roll, at which point I think he'd pull away. What do you all think?

[LandShark]

I think you friend suffers from penis envy. And his S4 will toast you until you mod to Stage 2. Audi reports 5.6 sec 0-60 for tiptronic. Probably more like 5.2 or 5.3 sec. C&D reports 5.0 flat for manual. (That's 0.3 faster than Audi claims). S4 has 340 hp @ 7,000 rpm / 302 ft-lb torque @ 3,500 rpm Curb weight = 3,925 lbs. That V-8 is the main reason. Electronically speed limited to 155 mph

[Driver72]

Nah, he's one of my best friends. I don't think he was trying to "one up me" or anything. He's not that way at all. He's doesn't even want to "race" me or anything, It's just I think he was a bit nervous about spending the money to get the S4, and was "settling" on the A4 1.8T. But after the dealer worked him a deal on the S4 ($400 above invoice) his lease payments only rose by $80 or so dollars a month. He had to put down an additional $1,500 and took a $2,500 hit on the trade in for the A4 1.8T. So for $4,000 more and only $80 buck more a month, he's got the S4 instead of the A4 1.8T. He's also a photographer, who has a picture that's been published in over a couple dozen different magazines worldwide, and even on a billboard. He wants to do some shots of our two cars and some car to car driving shots as well. When we do it, I'll post the pics. So, I'll get spanked huh? I figured I might have a 1/2 car length advantage right out of the gates, and then he'd start pulling up right away. I knew without the advantage of a hard manual tranny launch, I'd get smoked from a roll. Once we both get a 1000 miles on our cars, I'll let you guys know the outcome too. And maybe I'll get him to go to the dyno shop with me as well.

[agctr]

Let the truth be known Go up against the S4 and you will get hosed.... PERIOD. Hence the reason here in Australia anyway that you could buy 2 GT's and then some for the price of the S4. Adam.

[RobY]

With the diffrence in money you could Just "green" the car and put multiple buslengths on him... and still have money for another legacy. :D If he asks about the shiney turbo under the hood you can say... "Oh that little guy... dont worry about that little guy" He wont know what hit him until he hears a distinctive WHOOOOOOOOOOOOSHHH! slowly fading away as he watches you pulling hopelessly ahead in the distance. Then he will think to himself... DAMN I should have got an Forced induction car... Now im stuck with a massively large naturally aspirated V8... With AUDI intheshopeveryweek "heritage" :D That being said... he will pull you stock vs stock... STGII you should be even. New turbo... hes pretty much F'ed...

[Deer Killer]

[quote name='agctr']Let the truth be known Go up against the S4 and you will get hosed.... PERIOD. Hence the reason here in Australia anyway that you could buy 2 GT's and then some for the price of the S4. Adam.[/QUOTE] Don't you guys get a Spec B? I think the power/weight ratios are pretty damn close. (where's that vid of it beating the rs6 on a race track?)

[SUBE555]

The big factor on the RS6 versus 2.0GT Spec B is weight. The RS6's massive brakes couldn't hold up after the first lap and a half or two due to it's mass I'm told. It's got the power, but power isn't everything, even if your power to weight ratio is better. Tsukuba I believe is a fairly tight track, thus difficulty if it's a bigger car. The 4.2L V8 in the S4 should have you especially after launch. Cobb Stage 2 might have you ahead (if it's only slightly lower on ponies) with a great power to weight ratio, like others have said, new turbo, he's own3d. Just look out, I think next year the RS4 is supposed to come stateside. 3L V6 bi-turbo I believe and somewhere around or greater than 400hp. I've wanted an RS4 Avant (something you could never get in the USDM or would cost you about 3 arms and 4 legs if you could afford it), and that made about 380hp and gobs of torque. The GT is my closest thing to it, and it's much more affordable, I'm more than happy with a slightly modified GT that should be able to stick with Audi RS cars that have significantly more power, but significantly more mass at the same time. :D

[Driver72]

I'll let you guys know how it goes, we're going to meet up the week of Thanksgiving for a photoshoot and some runs. I don't know if we'll go from a stop, maybe a time or two, but I want to eliminate the launch equation and just let the motors go at it from a roll at varying speeds, and see how close the LGT (manual) can stay to the S4 (auto).

[Deer Killer]

[quote name='Driver72']I'll let you guys know how it goes, we're going to meet up the week of Thanksgiving for a photoshoot and some runs. I don't know if we'll go from a stop, maybe a time or two, but I want to eliminate the launch equation and just let the motors go at it from a roll at varying speeds, and see how close the LGT (manual) can stay to the S4 (auto).[/QUOTE] Inertia isn't as much of a problem when you're not trying to accerate as fast (i.e. not first gear). You're eliminating your advantage.

[agctr]

***UPDATE*** 1. The new RS4 will be a NA Engine Only and will be a 4.2L V8 with a rumored 317Kw 2. NO Leg/Lib would EVER compete with an S4, S6, RS4 or RS6 PERIOD Adam.

[RobY]

With the 2.5 EJ25X series people are getting close to 400 AWHP on pump gas. On race gas people are getting 450 AWHP on the stock engine so Id say yeah... It would pull it pretty bad. Thats over 500 BHP! As far as never compteting never say never... With a green it would even smoke an RS4 pretty bad.

[GBY]

If he's a good driver then you'll be buying the drinks.

[agctr]

Yeah it may but its NOT considered STOCK then. We are talking stock V stock, Im not sure I have EVER seen a STOCK GT or even an STi for that matter doing Sub5's or even just above 5's all day ever day STOCK ONLY. Please dont kid yourself, the Scooby is no RS6. Adam.

[RobY]

Well you never said stock.... :D

[agctr]

Well I even think a Modded RS6 would KILL a Modded GT. Mate, the RS6 comes STANDARD with 331Kw, the Scooby comes with 180Kw, the RS6 comes with twice the Kw and then some........ Adam.

[RobY]

If it is naturally aspirated they are going to have a HELL of a time trying to get more power from an already tapped naturally aspirated engine. As with most already high specific output naturally aspirated engines what you see is pretty much all you are ever going to get. A 3.0 biturbo would be killer a 4.2l NA is underwhelming. The cheapness and ability of the Subaru to become super fast for super cheap comes from one attribute. An engine designed and built for boost. This is the case with many japanese sports cars most notably the Toyota supra Twin turbo. 2jz-gte and the Nissan Skyline GT-R RB26-DET which are capable of LAUGING at boost that more than TRIPLES its stock horsepower. [url]www.to4r.com[/url]

[endeavorc]

The RS6 is a Bi-Turbo 4.2L V-8. The MTM version in mild tuning has seen 510HP, with an exhaust, more aggresive tuning hits close to 550HP very easily. sorry, corrected hp figures

[agctr]

Yup have to agree the boys at MTM know how to tune that baby and under the hood it looks pretty damn sweet too. Chops some .5 off the 0 - 100/60 which is extremely impressive. Well pointed out endeavorc Adam.

[Driver72]

[quote name='Deer Killer']Inertia isn't as much of a problem when you're not trying to accerate as fast (i.e. not first gear). You're eliminating your advantage.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I know. I'll probably try one or two runs from a stop too, and he'll brake torque and see how long I can stay out front (which might only be up to like 30 mph). But knowing the S4 is faster, there's really no need to abuse my clutch and tranny doing too many (if any) starts from a dead stop. Other than just too see if I could get a car length on him, so I could get the jump, then merge in front of an S4 if someone in an auto S4 needing a smack down on a two lane freeway on ramp that merged into one! :D But doing a "run" from a roll at different speeds, gives you a better idea of the car's engine and gearing abilities. If say from a 20 mph roll, I start in first and we go to say 80 mph and I'm within a couple car lengths, I'd be pretty happy. Then I'll probably try a 40-80+ from 2nd gear. And knowing that 3rd gear is our "strong" gear from a roll, do a 60-100 mph starting in 3rd.

[RobY]

[quote name='endeavorc']The RS6 is a Bi-Turbo 4.2L V-8. The MTM version in mild tuning has seen 510HP, with an exhaust, more aggresive tuning hits close to 550HP very easily. sorry, corrected hp figures[/QUOTE] OMG!! 4.2 Biturbo where do I sign up! Im such a boostwhore... :D

[SUBE555]

Should be interesting to see the results and details. Adam, last thing I heard was V6 and biturbo like the old RS4, but that's been some time, it's still what's sitting on the Edmunds site as a possibility, but just that. Considering the larger A6 line, RS model gets the larger turbo V8, the smaller A4, RS model may get the enlarged turbo V6, a larger version of the potent 2.7TT we knew of in the last turbo S4 and RS4 (available outside of North America.) Personally if I had the choice, I'd rather see a twin-turbo, 3.0L V6 in the RS4 for sake of what the old model RS4 was capable of and it being a better fit into that chassis as well as weightwise as well as tuning potential. 6-Cylinder turbos are a glorious thing as RobY mentioned though the Japanese inline 6's really are the most potent.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I wanna see a twin turbo H6. Well, another one, besides the Stuttgart ones, although, those are ultimate. Twin turbo V6 this, twin turbo I6 that, I wanna twin turbo flat 6. and AWD. Built to Subies standards. (they do seem to be good at designing flat turbo engines.) Let Audis suck on modded Legacy STi exhaust.

[agctr]

*** UPDATE *** It has been confirmed by Martin Winterkorn (Chairman of AUDI, Ex Chairman of Porsche) AUDI wants to show off its engineering prowess by offering a NA engine in the RS4. This was also later confirmed by Wolfgang Hatz (AUDI's engine boss) by saying that AUDI wants to show the World that they can deliver high powered naturally aspirated engines. The RS4 should weigh in at 1600Kg which will have the power to weight ratio to compete against its other German and International Rivals. What does all this mean? 4.2 V8 NA ONLY with 317Kw with a lot of lighter internal mods with extensive exhaust enhancements. Adam.

[Deer Killer]

[quote name='agctr']What does all this mean? [/QUOTE] [size=5]BOOM.[/size] Hey, it's what happens when you re-invent all your technology every year :) At least Audi's internals were very reliable, especially when compared to an M3, which is the kind of engine the turbo experts are now trying to make.

[agctr]

Yup have to agree, the AUDI boys make a good engine and turn out some of the best gear. Its certainly keeping the rest of the World honest and has helped our Japanese friends bridge some of the gap. Adam.