Vimy101 Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 There is no difference is specs between a spec b motor and a regular LGT motor:icon_mrgr Except for what must be an OEM ECU tweak that results in quicker times (with larger diameter wheels no less) and a higher dyno result. Why wouldn't SOA goose the numbers of its flagship performance sedan? It's easy, costs nothing and warranty claims from wear and tear due to increased performance would be few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Pimp Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 You must have failed your statistics class. A few magazine times and one or two dyno results is not a conclusive result. Stop parading magazine results around as fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 You must have failed your statistics class. A few magazine times and one or two dyno results is not a conclusive result. Stop parading magazine results around as fact. They are, however, the only facts in play. I find it interesting that there is so much resistance among LGT owners to the demonstrated idea that the Spec.B has obviously been OEM tweaked. We all should know by now that a simple ECU remap unleashes a great deal more power from the detuned LGT engine. Why wouldn't Subaru do it? After all, as the flagship of the sedan line it would be the one that car rags would want to test and Subaru would want to look good. The times are faster ( with larger wheels) and the dyno results suggest the reason why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John M Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Hmm - looks like if this turns into a car I keep for another 10 years or so, it may get a full 6spd swap just to knock off 1000+ rpms while cruising. It'll be interesting to see if tuned 6spd's net noticably better highway gas mileage. Note that gearing like that nets 90 mph cruising at 3k rpm -- again, very useful and much improved over the 5spd's interstate manners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trabbic Posted February 27, 2007 Author Share Posted February 27, 2007 They are, however, the only facts in play. I find it interesting that there is so much resistance among LGT owners to the demonstrated idea that the Spec.B has obviously been OEM tweaked. We all should know by now that a simple ECU remap unleashes a great deal more power from the detuned LGT engine. Why wouldn't Subaru do it? After all, as the flagship of the sedan line it would be the one that car rags would want to test and Subaru would want to look good. The times are faster ( with larger wheels) and the dyno results suggest the reason why. Even though this is off topic, I can't resist. There is ONE dyno that shows higher dyno numbers. Have you had your car dynoed? Anyone else with a spec b, that showed higher numbers? EDIT: don't forget also that the 07 dyno you refer to is a car with a 6 speed, so the difference in hp can be attributed to the fact that in 3rd gear in the 6 speed, the overall gear ratio is lower, so the hp number is likely to be higher, than a 3 gear pull in a 5 speed, even if the engine is making the EXACT same power. It is NOT obvious that it has been tweaked, it is possible, but not obvious. Don't forget that the faster numbers could very likely (more likely than extra hp), be traced to the better tires, especially considering the way the car is launched to get a 0-60 and 1/4 mile time. My question for you is why wouldn't Subaru advertise more hp on the Spec B if it actually had it? It would have sold more, they had trouble selling them. Maybe the car that the magazines tested was tweaked (manufacturers have done it before), but my money is in the tires. Now to get back on topic: The 06 spec B is still going to be slower than an 07, to every other speed except 60, thanks to the 6 speed transmission. My vB Garage How to Install Steering Wheel Radio Controls Cubby Gauge Mounting Solutions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 ^ Nevertheless, published times, the dyno result and anecdotal evidence I stumbled across in a conversation with a Subaru dealer do point to a tweaked ECU. Don't forget, if all things were equal powerwise, the 06 Spec.B should accelerate slower than the LGT due to the Spec.'s larger diameter tires. Where there's smoke, there's fire. Are there published 07 Spec.B times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmundu Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 I thought that if they tweaked the ECU, they would need to recertify for emissions? Or is that only applicable to CL settigns, and OL can be changed as needed to suit the manufacturer. If it is the latter, SOA very well could have juiced up the ECM settings. Now the BIG question....Who will grab a ROM image of their stock SPecB? Comparing it to a std LGT rom is cake ,and we will quickly put this rumor to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trabbic Posted February 27, 2007 Author Share Posted February 27, 2007 ^ Why don't you step up to the plate? My vB Garage How to Install Steering Wheel Radio Controls Cubby Gauge Mounting Solutions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 ^ What's involved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HansGT Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Best published time for the 06 Spec.B is 5.1 seconds. Best published '05 GT Limited MT is 5.23...Autoweek 7/05. It all depends on the drive/launch/car/conditions. With sticker OEM rubber and firmer suspension a stock '06 spec should be faster to 60 than a stock GT. (who's stock?) '07 Spec B...probably slower as we've seen noted here due to extra shift and 100 extra lbs. But with the loss of the cat in the up, could be spooling a bit faster and add a couple extra ponies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmundu Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 ^ What's involved? Find someone local who has the Tactrix 1.2 cable & laptop, or buy one.($80). Then just use ecuflash to pull a copy of the ROM. I can compare them for you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 ^ 18" wheels should be a significant penalty. I doubt there was any wheel spin on either vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Find someone local who has the Tactrix 1.2 cable & laptop, or buy one.($80). Then just use ecuflash to pull a copy of the ROM. I can compare them for you... meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trabbic Posted February 28, 2007 Author Share Posted February 28, 2007 ^ 18" wheels should be a significant penalty. I doubt there was any wheel spin on either vehicle. Depends on how much they weigh. And saying there was no wheel spin just reinforces how little you know. Have you ever really launched your car? When stock I ran my best 1/4 mile with wheel spin on a prepped track. And magazines don't run their cars on prepped tracks, so I am sure they get significant wheel spin (mostly the fronts) when the test a car like the legacy. My vB Garage How to Install Steering Wheel Radio Controls Cubby Gauge Mounting Solutions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Depends on how much they weigh. And saying there was no wheel spin just reinforces how little you know. Have you ever really launched your car? When stock I ran my best 1/4 mile with wheel spin on a prepped track. And magazines don't run their cars on prepped tracks, so I am sure they get significant wheel spin (mostly the fronts) when the test a car like the legacy. By all accounts, the OEM 18"s are deemed heavy by the experts around here. There are no complaints of wheel spin upon launching stock LGTs on dry roads on this entire site that I'm aware of and no accounts of wheel spin in the published reports. Having larger diameter tires is like having taller gears in every gear. For instance, at 75 mph I'm turning 3k rpms in the 06 Spec.B. Quick launches are aided by lower gears. The gearing is in effect increased by having taller tires. That is basic, fundamental stuff. Ever ridden a ten speed bike? Starting in tenth gear is not an advantage in a sprint. And still the 06 Spec.B pulls the faster times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 A difference of 5.1 to 5.23 can EASILY be conditions of the track and atmosphere. I know that the published error band for braking tests in the mags is +/-15 ft, so I would guess 0-60 times have a +/- .2 S band at the very least... Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 ^ Yep. But the fastest times are posted by the Spec.B. In the comparison tests, one can determine relative conditions (heat, humidity, altitude, etc.) by times noted for the other car(s). Then you have the larger diameter 18" wheels which should result in an acceleration penalty yet the Spec.B times are faster on the whole than LGT ones.. I realize that I am challenging the conventional wisdom that developed on this site which tried to explain away the quicker 06 Spec.B times. I'm merely attempting to get people to think outside the box to focus on the boxer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trabbic Posted February 28, 2007 Author Share Posted February 28, 2007 By all accounts, the OEM 18"s are deemed heavy by the experts around here. A search I just did found guesses of about 4lbs per wheel, so 16lbs. Why don't you weigh your wheel and tire combo and post it up, and I will do the same, so we can make an accurate comparison. Also don't forget about the lighter suspension, it lowers unsprung weight, which will counter the effects of the heaver wheels. There are no complaints of wheel spin upon launching stock LGTs on dry roads on this entire site that I'm aware of and no accounts of wheel spin in the published reports. Trust me if they are doing it right, the wheels will slip and spin, especially on a regular road. I know from experience, obviously you don't . I am not talking about crazy smoke generating wheel spin, but it does make a difference, enough of a difference to shave a couple tenths off, if you could reduce it, by using better tires. Read the 1/4 mile threads, people talk about how better tires lowered their times. The published reports will only discuss wheel-spin if it is excessive, which it will not be in any awd car. Having larger diameter tires is like having taller gears in every gear. For instance, at 75 mph I'm turning 3k rpms in the 06 Spec.B. Quick launches are aided by lower gears. The gearing is in effect increased by having taller tires. That is basic, fundamental stuff. Ever ridden a ten speed bike? Starting in tenth gear is not an advantage in a sprint. And still the 06 Spec.B pulls the faster times. FINALY, something on topic to talk about. Re-read the thread, a little taller gear does not necessarily hurt acceleration times that much. We are not talking about the high gear on a bike vs the lowest gear here. The difference is pretty minor. See the attached file. In addition, the comparison I just ran shows that the taller overall gear ratio provided by the tires actually HELPS the spec B be faster in the 1/4 mile, it helps the trap speed by a couple mph, and et is .05 better. Remember that this comparison does NOT take into account any extra hp that may or may not be there. Also it does NOT take into account the significantly better grip provided by the summer rubber.05GTv06SpecB.pdf My vB Garage How to Install Steering Wheel Radio Controls Cubby Gauge Mounting Solutions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 ^ The 06 Spec.B also weighs more than the LGT by most accounts and still posts the faster times. Why is there such resistance to the simplest explanation? If I remember it right (and I might not be), the post that had the dyno result indicated the 07 Spec.B to have 20 whp more than LGT it was compared to (and the LGT appeared to perform within specification). Can you factor that into your software program and run the numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudy Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Why the emphasis on 0-60? The only things that really matter or 1/4 ET and trap. ET will give you how quick a car will cover a distance, and trap will put to rest any discussion about which car is putting more power to the wheels, after you take into account the difference in weight. 0-60 just shows who has 2nd gear optimized to hit an arbitrary speed. With respect to the power issue, you also have to consider it's not just the SpecB that may or may not have more HP, but all the 07's. With the removal of the up-pipe, possible/minor change in the turbocharger, and likely an opportunity to retune the ECU slightly to accommodate the lack of a 3rd cat and the addition of the smog pump, I think it's more likely any power differences are across all the 07's and not exclusive to the SpecB. Regarding wheels. The Miata community is insane about putting the smallest/lightest rims on the cars. People downsize the brakes in order to fit 14" on some models. That being said, while the theory of a shorter final drive and less rotational mass should produce better acceleration, I've never seen anyone post before/after 1/4 mile times after downsizing rims that suggests it's noticeable. I hear people talk subjectively about steering/handling "feel" improving, but I haven't seen any objective timeslips posted that say it's good for a .1 or .2. And that's on a low power, lightweight car where it should make an obvious difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 ^ I believe the fastest published OEM 06 Spec.B 1/4 mile time is 13.9 which is quicker than the fastest OEM LGT time if I recall correctly. Lower gearing will get a car into its power band more quickly. The Spec. with its larger diameter wheels effectively has higher gearing and still runs faster times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmundu Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Will someone with a SpecB please pull a ROM image, and send it to me!!! We can put this to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trabbic Posted February 28, 2007 Author Share Posted February 28, 2007 Lower gearing will get a car into its power band more quickly. The Spec. with its larger diameter wheels effectively has higher gearing and still runs faster times. Having lower gearing does not always mean the car will be faster, your not reading what I have posted. The 6 speed car and 5 speed car are so close (at stage 2 and above) that there is really no difference. Even though the 6 speed is geared lower. In fact the 5 speed might have a slight advantage, because it can keep in gear longer. So actually the opposite can be true of what you said, especially on a car with a wide powerband. You are also ignoring (or dismissing) the MAJOR factor of the better rubber. Tires are a HUGE factor in standing start acceleration. My vB Garage How to Install Steering Wheel Radio Controls Cubby Gauge Mounting Solutions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 ^ I've been referring to the 06 Spec.B that has the 5MT. Don't blame the R92s for yet more poor performances. OEM LGTs aren't lighting up the fronts on hard dry pavement acceleration. The 06 Spec. gets quicker times despite being heavier and having taller gearing (the 18"s). What might account for that? Could it be greater power? That could definitely account for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.