Kw Coilover Owners Must Read, Safety Issue

[m sprank]

No warranty if not the original owner. That is how it works. $410 for the rear pair is a steep discount.

[BarManBean]

No warranty if not the original owner. That is how it works. $410 for the rear pair is a steep discount.

 

I get that. This type of failure is just quite extreme, IMO (like you said, you've never seen it in person before). Seems an obvious manufacturing issue weather it's the metal, the weld, or the incorrect bushing being installed.

 

It's fine, I'm over it. Pay to play and all that.

[m sprank]

I completely understand from the end user perspective. I also see the manufacturer perspective. While I dont always agree, I do understand. In a perfect world you would have no out of pocket expense.

[grovlet]

well - for me this just sealed the "No Sale" on KWs.... I'm actually planning out a suspension upgrade for later this year or next spring - and they were on the list.

 

But for me - New England roads have to many potholes to avoid them all - and the fact that KW denied warranty claims to what they've already acknowledged is a bearing issue if out of spec? Nope - while they seem reputable I will not deal with the chance the wife is driving and suddenly blam - failure!!!

 

Sorry KW - Customer Lost! (Actually RCE) - Although that could put the GTWorx Bilstein option back up to the top!

[BarManBean]

Yeah, a bit frustrating really. I messaged an employee directly at KW earlier this week and he basically told me not to contact them again. I've come across another member that had a similar issue and he was afforded rear replacements at no cost it seems, so I'm not really sure why they are choosing to treat my situation differently (other user was also not an original owner).

 

I may still be calling them next week...

[m sprank]

well - for me this just sealed the "No Sale" on KWs.... I'm actually planning out a suspension upgrade for later this year or next spring - and they were on the list.

 

But for me - New England roads have to many potholes to avoid them all - and the fact that KW denied warranty claims to what they've already acknowledged is a bearing issue if out of spec? Nope - while they seem reputable I will not deal with the chance the wife is driving and suddenly blam - failure!!!

 

Sorry KW - Customer Lost! (Actually RCE) - Although that could put the GTWorx Bilstein option back up to the top!

 

KW did not deny a warranty claim. The interweb is rife with misunderstandings and communications that end up becoming "truth".

 

No warranty was denied. There was no warranty to claim. KW has a very inclusive/thorough warranty on their coils for the ORIGINAL PURCHASER. If you buy them second hand there is no warranty. You can attempt to make a warranty claim and it will be denied because you NEVER HAD a warranty.

 

Buy a brand new car. Sell it while it is still under the factory warranty. Guess what? Warranty can be void. Sure some aftermarket and extended warranties can be transferred to the new owner. Just as some government regulated devices must carry a warranty. But not the standard original warranty. Same thing applies here. Second owner, no warranty.

 

Heres food for thought. RCE sold the coils originally under their own brand name, not KW. Why does RCE not supply a brand new set of coils to the (now) owner?

[BarManBean]

KW did not deny a warranty claim. The interweb is rife with misunderstandings and communications that end up becoming "truth".

 

No warranty was denied. There was no warranty to claim. KW has a very inclusive/thorough warranty on their coils for the ORIGINAL PURCHASER. If you buy them second hand there is no warranty. You can attempt to make a warranty claim and it will be denied because you NEVER HAD a warranty.

 

Buy a brand new car. Sell it while it is still under the factory warranty. Guess what? Warranty is void. Sure some aftermarket and extended warranties can be transferred to the new owner. Just as some government regulated devices must carry a warranty. But not the standard original warranty. Same thing applies here. Second owner, no warranty.

 

Heres food for thought. RCE sold the coils originally under their own brand name, not KW. Why does RCE not supply a brand new set of coils to the (now) owner?

 

^^I get that. But this type of failure isn't a warranty situation, IMO--it's a manufacturer / assembly defect and it's a potentially serious safety issue. When a car manufacturer issues a TSB, it applies to the vehicle itself regardless of ownership. To me, this is a similar situation.

 

My specific shocks say "Racecomp Engineering, Made by KW". Regardless of who sold them, it's pretty clear who made them.

[cheeseenlo]

I didn't want to get involved much more than I needed to.

 

I am the the other owner that BMB mentions about getting the rear set replaced free of charge. Remember JuxtaGT had his replaced as well. I put it this way towards KW, we could argue about this being a warranty claim or a manufacturers defect. The main principle is that the product failed. Is the product intended to fail in this fashion? Probably not. When followed by manufacturers instructions for rebuild procedures, this involves replacing seals, o-rings, snap rings etc. The shock body is not replaced in any way. So in theory the body should endure all conditions. The shock body is not a wear item.

 

As for KW offering partial coverage or any coverage at all to replace the parts, that's complete ignorance. I think the manufacturer here should acknowledge the fact that it's a design or manufacturing flaw. This should really be addressed consistently among all of those affected by this type of failure. Each case should be handled the same. Tell me if my logic is correct. It seriously upsets me how KW is taking this out on BMB. This could have endangered many others on the road including himself. It should not be taken lightly.

[StoplightAssassin]

Buy a brand new car. Sell it while it is still under the factory warranty. Guess what? Warranty is void.

 

Where did you get that idea? That's not how vehicle warranties work.

 

Some warranties like Hyundai's 10yr/100k warranty are reduced in terms to the second owner if the car isn't certified by Hyundai, in which case the powertrain warranty is reduced to 5 yrs/60k.

[grovlet]

Guys - Look I see it as an issue - because your talking about a part that is critical to maintaining control over a vehicle....

 

I get the warranty claim rights - but for them to take a stand over $400 is showing they don't care about what the issue may be turning into and how big it could be. I imagine if an accident occurs due to this failure - it could be much larger than $400 they could be liable for.

 

So for KW to take that lightly and act with the idea that it's a ONE OFF issue when now we are seeing multiple occurrences... To me - I just don't want to to be in that situation.

 

So for me I'll show my stance by not purchasing the product - it's really that simple. (And I'm also voicing my choice so that it's noted vs. just not buying product with no awareness I was planning on it)

 

PS - I think is where Forums like this can be helpful to flush out ideas around issues like this - as I feel like there's good awareness here to allow folks to make their own decisions on how a product like this fits into their own situational usage.

[m sprank]

Where did you get that idea? That's not how vehicle warranties work.

 

Some warranties like Hyundai's 10yr/100k warranty are reduced in terms to the second owner if the car isn't certified by Hyundai, in which case the powertrain warranty is reduced to 5 yrs/60k.

 

Edited my post as it can be voided/modified. If the warranty states that is is valid only to the original purchaser than thats how it plays out. I went shopping for a used car today for my mother. Several cars/trucks we looked at were still covered by a warranty that would not be transferred to her as the new owner.

 

As for KW offering partial coverage or any coverage at all to replace the parts, that's complete ignorance. I think the manufacturer here should acknowledge the fact that it's a design or manufacturing flaw. This should really be addressed consistently among all of those affected by this type of failure. Each case should be handled the same. Tell me if my logic is correct. It seriously upsets me how KW is taking this out on BMB. This could have endangered many others on the road including himself. It should not be taken lightly.

 

If the issue was design/engineering/manufacturing you would think there would be more complaints of failure. Maybe that is why KW is not treating it as a design/engineering/manufacturing issue. They do not know exactly how the coils have been used or treated, but maybe they see signs of something they feel is excessive or outside the intended usage. Could be KW knows something we dont, like the lower mount gets damaged by running too low and their records could show multiple replacements of inner seals on those coils, so they feel they were run too low for too long (Devils Advocate). They do have records of hundreds if not thousands of sets sold and used without issue. They have feedback from shops and teams that use the coils for racing applications (we ran KW V2's on MAX track LGT for a while) without issue, as well as their own in house testing. So, the 3 forum members who have had an issue (iirc) might not be enough to trigger a corporate response... 3 out of how many? The cars have been out of production for 6 model years now. If the coils coming in broken are on their second+ owner and are up to 10 years old how is this to be deemed a manufacturing flaw? I think the coils should have been breaking in far larger numbers, far faster. Materials do have a lifespan. KW's warranty is also voided by using the coils outside their intended usage/specifications.

 

KW coils are covered for manufacturing defects for the life (original purchaser) of the coil. Coils do not last as long as humans. KW knows when the coils were originally produced by the serial numbers. I have never had them deny warranty due to a coil reaching the end of its useful life, but I do not doubt they have and continue to do so.

 

My specific shocks say "Racecomp Engineering, Made by KW". Regardless of who sold them, it's pretty clear who made them.

 

Denso make parts for Subaru. Subaru installs them in their cars. If their is a warranty issue, do you go to Denso or Subaru? Subaru. Same here. RCE sold the coils, KW made them for RCE (private label).

 

If KW picked up part of the tab, why is RCE not picking up the other? It only makes logical sense applying the same logic that leads second owners to believe they should have some warranty for an aftermarket "race" part.

 

Like I said, I see both sides. I buy parts with my hard earned money just like all members. But, I also walk the other side of the street as a vendor and shop owner. In this case, I agree with the manufacturer. I feel they already went above and beyond by offering a reduced price replacement outside the warranty.

 

Felt like someone needed to stand up for KW as they are not here to defend themselves. How many Megans went BOOM?:eek:

[BarManBean]

How about this. It's as simple as a precedent that has been set previously. An owner in the same situation (2nd owner, same failure) was afforded a replacement at no cost. Why am I any different?

 

One of two situations is going on here, as far as I can tell.

 

1. There is a manufacture issue that is playing out over time and KW is aware of it, in which case they should be replacing things as they fail or in advance of failure in an effort to maximize safety and prevent mishap.

 

2. KW *doesn't* now what's going on and doesn't know why things are failing (even in small numbers, as you indicate). If this is the case, KW should be clambering for me to send in the broken parts so that they can inspect them to improve on things for the future.

 

Since they haven't asked for the broken parts back, I'm led to believe that they have an understanding of the issue and don't need to see my parts for examination. Why would they not want the broken part back for inspection? They rebuilt them less than 1 year and 7k miles ago and didn't see an issue. Sorry, but that doesn't make sense to me.

 

None of this really matters though. This is between me and KW / RCE at this point and I'll be in touch with both as necessary moving forward. I'm a proponent and understander of "pay to play", but really--a shock body should NEVER be a wear item of any sort on anything short of a dedicated racecar application.

[AZP Installs]

If RCE is private labeling them, then it is between the end user and the private labeller. Would you try to get your window switches on your subaru replaced by Nissan since they are the ones who produce the window switches for Subaru? Nope you would have them fixed/replaced by Subaru.

 

My opinion is that while ultimately KW is responsible for this, they are only responsible to RCE who they sold them to be sold under the RCE name.

 

Additionally, all aftermarket parts are generally labelled for "off road use only" and not setup for on road use which would void the warranties because public roads are generally tougher on suspension parts than a nicely paved road course.

 

-Mike Paisan

 

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[nm]

Additionally, all aftermarket parts are generally labelled for "off road use only" and not setup for on road use which would void the warranties because public roads are generally tougher on suspension parts than a nicely paved road course.

That's generally a cover to try to avoid liability should shit go down. The warranty would pretty much have to specifically exclude that. I don't know why this is even an argument, as these shocks are clearly not under warranty anymore.

 

FWIW, I'm at almost 100k mi with one rebuild, a few ice races, lots of track days and autocrosses on my tarmacs.

[BarManBean]

Again, I'm not arguing anything to do with a warranty here. According to KWs messages to other users, they assembled my pair of shocks, along with some others, with the incorrect bushing. That's it.

 

But I guess certain people have the opinion that since I purchased them second hand 7k miles ago and on a zero mile rebuild, that makes it no longer a mistake that KW made and should correct. I guess if Drew888 still owned them then it should be no question the KW should be replacing them? That just seems silly.

 

I'm the one dealing with the issue at the moment and I'll deal with it via RCE and KW as I feel needed. I think those that need info on the quality of KW parts have it in spades and can make their own decisions based on their own research. You'll find both good and bad things I guess.

 

Overall I'm happy with the performance of the coilovers, moderately frustrated at the apparent quality control of the parts (mine were misassembled, and the issue was not corrected during the rebuild), and somewhat disgusted at the customer service and overall "give a shit" factor from what I've seen. Others are more than welcome to have their own perceptions and opinions.

[m sprank]

To recap... The original findings from KW (in 2007) when the first failure occurred:

 

 

"With our Quality control, we are unsure of how this would happen. It is still a bit of a mystery how this could have missed our testing. Both the quality control manager, R&D, as well as the owner of company already have been told about the issue, and it will be reviewed. We have gone over both our stock here and the stock in Germany, but we don't have any other of this coilover with the incorrect bushings pressed in. We have also checked the stock in Germany, and have received the same answer. Your particular system seems to be the only one with the incorrect bushings pushed in.

 

With that said however, let everyone know to measure out the inside sleeve. Check to see the measurement. The inside sleeve should not be less than 42.5mm, if it is they have an incorrect bushing. Please let them know to get in touch with me ASAP so I can get them taken care of. I don't expect to find anyone else with this, but it is better to have the information out there just to be sure. The failure in your kit was caused the system not having enough movement because of the small inside sleeve. I have seen people mentioning the welds in the thread, however the welds would not be the problem. The constant stress this incorrect sleeve caused will have caused the problem."

 

The same user who reported the original failure had the exact same failure occur 5 years later. This accounts for 2 of the 3 failures. 2 of them being the same owner and same car. BMB has recently reported (2014) the 3rd known failure and his set is of unknown age and also used.

 

First 2 sets were KW branded. Third set is RCE branded.

[BarManBean]

I know of 4 failures involving 3 owners, just to clarify. I don't know the exact time frame frame of that 4th failure, but could easily find out.

[m sprank]

I did not see a post here (I could have missed it) and I did not find any other complaints (like I said, could have missed it).

 

So, possibly 4 failures over 7 years (with 50% being on 1 car).

[BarManBean]

Not that that really changes things in terms of overall statistics.

[BarManBean]

I did not see a post here (I could have missed it) and I did not find any other complaints (like I said, could have missed it).

 

So, possibly 4 failures over 7 years (with 50% being on 1 car).

 

Basically. Although I would rephrase to say "at least 4 failures over 7 years, with 2 of those on the same vehicle / owner".

 

I say it that way because I honestly wouldn't expect every failure (of any part, not just this part) to be posted here on the forum (or any forum). I.e. the fourth failure that I'm aware of was not on the forum.

 

Are there more? I dunno. Does it matter if there are more? I dunno.

[m sprank]

No, but it points to a possible problem with the car or set up. I am wondering if the effected coils were ridden below or at the "minimal ride height" spec given by KW. I am familiar with the original car and owner of your set and I recall the car being set up low and I know they were driven VERY hard.

 

Either way, 4 failures over 7 years sounds like a very small percentage. Obviously there could be more we will probably never know.

[BarManBean]

IIRC, drew said he ran 235/40r18s with the coils. Doesn't sound like the car would have be too crazy low with that setup. And these *do* let you go fairly low while still being in spec.

 

And I imagine they're designed to be driven on given performance and price point. Either way, the set was sent back out of KW's shop 7k miles ago, you'd like to hope that there were no issues following a fresh rebuild, but honestly I don't know how that process works.

[m sprank]

You can go well below KW's recommended ride height with 235/40/18's. I know, I have done it many times. Max even ran them with that size tires (KDW2's) and at the minimum ride height setting for track duty. Although they only lasted a few track events running that way (and going off track).

 

Drew likes his car low. He complains about the ride height being too tall now on the Epic/Koni set up.

[BarManBean]

Yeah, nothing terribly low about epics.

 

Thinking about it though, I would think that running the coils higher would make for a longer fulcrum to put stress on the lower connection point.

[m sprank]

But the "shock" that the body would take is far greater when the strut bottoms out and they would bottom out far more often with the lower ride height.

 

Low ride height and minimal travel, slam two bumps in secession at high speed and the coil is rigid when it hits the second bump. So the force of the impact should be greater on the shock body than if it actually had travel.

 

I too could be wrong. My personal experience with rigid suspensions is that the impacts are far more violent. Thats why I qualify for 40% disability. "Lost" my right arm to a packed up rear suspension.