Politics on replacement keys

[Boulderguy]

So your argument for the average homeowner to own assault rifles is three-fold:

 

1. The Taliban is coming to your house.

2. Assault rifles are really just regular rifles painted a different color.

3. A well-regulated militia depends on kids being able to practice shooting at home.

 

You guys are always good for a laugh :lol:.

 

(BTW, I'm Republican)

[Boulderguy]

My my literacy was good enough to get two degrees from Loyola Marymount University. Brilliant!

Tell me I'm not the only one who saw that...:lol:

 

 

[Another reason to own guns - kill the grammer police ]

[MIKEBRAVO]

Well, thank the Lord that such upstanding citizens as David Koresh, Warren Jeffs and John Allen Muhammed never used their assault weapons to rob the local quicky mart or shoot their wives.

I cant believe you even mentioned Koresh and Jeffs and Muhammed.

 

1. First lets start with Jeffs- how does he relate to assault weapons? He is a polygamist and a pedifile. I dont believe he was up on any weapons charges.
   
2. Koresh- They attacked his home and he attempted in vain to protect him self. His lack of defense was primarily because they were assaulted with a TANK. To add, prior to being assaulted by the ATF they never had any weapons violations, and even during the assult they were within there right to protect them selfs.
   
3. Muhammed- you got me here. He used an assault like weapon to commit a crime. However, I'd like to add, it was a hunting version of the military rifle which does not classify it as assault. Lastly, they could have use any other hunting rifle with the same or more deadly result.

Once again it is not the weapon, it is the person at fault.

[MIKEBRAVO]

So your argument for the average homeowner to own assault rifles is three-fold:

 

1. The Taliban is coming to your house.

2. Assault rifles are really just regular rifles painted a different color.

3. A well-regulated militia depends on kids being able to practice shooting at home.

 

You guys are always good for a laugh :lol:.

 

(BTW, I'm Republican)

1. The Taliban is the least of my worries. More so it is Islamist extremists, hell bend on world conversion or else.
   
2. Yes, assault rifles are just regular rifles painted. They are no more accurate the civilian hunting rifles. In fact due to the materials the use to make them they are often times LESS accurate.
   
3. Yes, you never had a BB gun. Shooting like any other sport can, and often does, build character and responcibility.

I am not against regulation, but I am against banning a proven and safe product because YOU think you know whats good for me. It is humorous, because I would support tighter restrictions on all hand guns. They are far more dangerous then any rifle. In fact, I never owned a hand gun until just resently. However, its concealability and light weight and durable contruction is very helpful on a long backcountry ride.

[Boulderguy]

However, its concealability and light weight and durable contruction is very helpful on a long backcountry ride.

YOU'RE BIKING WITH A GUN?!? WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?!?

[Boulderguy]

Next you'll tell us the only reason your town wasn't swallowed in flames recently is b/c God's on your side...

[Boulderguy]

1. The Taliban is the least of my worries. More so it is Islamist extremists, hell bend on world conversion or else.
   
2. Yes, assault rifles are just regular rifles painted. They are no more accurate the civilian hunting rifles. In fact due to the materials the use to make them they are often times LESS accurate.
   
3. Yes, you never had a BB gun. Shooting like any other sport can, and often does, build character and responcibility.

OK, so your argument is now:

 

1. Islamists are at your front door trying to convert you.

2. Assault rifles are actually safer than hunting rifles in the hands of civilians b/c they're less accurate.

3. Killing animals in your yard builds character & responsibility.

 

Uh, ok.

[MIKEBRAVO]

YOU'RE BIKING WITH A GUN?!? WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?!?

3dog bites, 10 rattlesnakes, 2 mountian lions, two loose bulls, a pot farmer, and 2 black bears, one with a cub. Its more for shock and awe then deadly force. I also carry pepper spray. The real scary thing was, I was fixing a flat when the bear and her cub came up. I thought I was a gonner, they weren't as big as I thought they would be.

[highlander]

Well, thank the Lord that such upstanding citizens as David Koresh, Warren Jeffs and John Allen Muhammed never used their assault weapons to rob the local quicky mart or shoot their wives.

 

Yeah, because they wouldn't have done the same thing with shotguns, pistols, or muzzle loaders.

 

The key ingredient to all of their crimes was intent and behavior, not the weapons.

[MIKEBRAVO]

OK, so your argument is now:

 

1. Islamists are at your front door trying to convert you.

2. Assault rifles are actually safer than hunting rifles in the hands of civilians b/c they're less accurate.

3. Killing animals in your yard builds character & responsibility.

 

Uh, ok.

You are worse then my wife , putting words in my mouth.

1. Islamist EXTERMIST- much different then you garden variety Muslim. They take the whole religion thing to the next level. You know, believe or die. Kindda like the Catholics did during the Cursades. The only good non believer is a dead nonbeliever, so they will help you out and let God himself try to convert you.
   
2. No rather, Assault rifles are NO more dangerous then hunting rifles.
   
3. Who said anything about killing animals with a BB Gun. The rule in our house is if you kill it you eat it! With the exception of course of Gophers and moles, which I dont allow my son to shoot but rather use traps. Gopher and mole holes dangerous for the horses you know.

[MIKEBRAVO]

Next you'll tell us the only reason your town wasn't swallowed in flames recently is b/c God's on your side...

Well now, I suppose you could say that, but God had nothing to do with the fire, an arsonist did. As you WELL know, fires in the Inland Empire are like earthquakes, they happen........alot. If they bother you, you move, like you did:lol: . Now you have to worry more about cold and freak blizzards, then the ground shifting and heat.

[highlander]

OK, so your argument is now:

 

1. Islamists are at your front door trying to convert you.

2. Assault rifles are actually safer than hunting rifles in the hands of civilians b/c they're less accurate.

3. Killing animals in your yard builds character & responsibility.

 

Uh, ok.

 

1. Radical Islamists are not seeking converts, they are seeking domination. Focus on the Radical, not the religion.

 

2. No, you have drawn the wrong conclusion. Hunting Rifles are equally as deadly 'Assault Rifles' of similar caliber, yet are not regulated due to cosmetic reasons. The same arguement applies to knives. Many laws exist prohibiting 'switchblades' (true name is automatic knives), 'butterfly' knives (aka Balisong), and double edged daggers (dirks). These knives are no more dangerous or lethal than a 8" butcher knife or a surgical scalpel, yet they became prohibited because criminals thought they were cool. Face it, they are cool (as far as knives go). No real reason to ban them other than cosmetics and public hysteria.

 

3. Where did he say you had to shoot animals in your yard? I grew up with air rifles on the target range and only went hunting once old enough to obtain a hunting license. Not everyone is shooting living creatures to learn the discipline.

 

Who's trying to stereotype the arguments here?

[MIKEBRAVO]

1. Radical Islamists are not seeking converts, they are seeking domination. Focus on the Radical, not the religion.

 

2. No, you have drawn the wrong conclusion. Hunting Rifles are equally as deadly 'Assault Rifles' of similar caliber, yet are not regulated due to cosmetic reasons. The same arguement applies to knives. Many laws exist prohibiting 'switchblades' (true name is automatic knives), 'butterfly' knives (aka Balisong), and double edged daggers (dirks). These knives are no more dangerous or lethal than a 8" butcher knife or a surgical scalpel, yet they became prohibited because criminals thought they were cool. Face it, they are cool (as far as knives go). No real reason to ban them other than cosmetics and public hysteria.

 

3. Where did he say you had to shoot animals in your yard? I grew up with air rifles on the target range and only went hunting once old enough to obtain a hunting license. Not everyone is shooting living creatures to learn the discipline.

 

Who's trying to stereotype the arguments here?

Sounds like we were separated at birth. :lol:

[highlander]

Mom always said I should have been born on the left coast.

[Boulderguy]

Mom always said I should have been born on the left coast.

Idaho may be more appropriate. Then again look out - it's about to turn blue.

 

We don't really have freak blizzards or much cold, I'm more worried about the mtn lion that just ate my cat.

 

So it's always fun berating y'all about your ideas, I really need to get to work tho.

 

About that hunting thing, I think guns should be banned from hunting altogether - where's the challenge in pointing a gun & squeezing one off? Bow hunting, much better, much harder. Underwater spear hunting, now we're talking!

 

Just doesn't seem like much of a challenge to use guns, it doesn't exactly prove superiority of man vs animal, more like weapon vs no weapon.

 

The indians had it right tho - for hundreds of years the mark of a man was capturing a deer. By hand. How? They'd outrun it, literally.

 

Man has greater stamina when he's fit, he'd simply run after the deer, tracking it, chasing it. After a few hours the deer would exhaust itself & lay down. The man would kill it with a knife. Can you imagine the modern sportsman attempting that challenge, supersize belly & all?

 

I vaguely remember something in this thread about keys...

[ZinFreak]

Reading this thread reminds me of all the things that are wrong in the United States. We find more to divide ourselves that unite us. Unfortunately, you're playing right into the hands of the politicians. They want you at each other's throats. Makes selling their crap so much easier.

 

Anyway, getting this thread back on topic, here's the legislation passed by the California legislature (signed into law by our Republican "Governator".

 

This assumes you'd rather read what the new law is as opposed to tearing each other to pieces.

 

Opposition to the bill was scant.

 

Be well, folks, play nice.

 

BILL ANALYSIS ------------------------------------------------------------ |SENATE RULES COMMITTEE | SB 1542| |Office of Senate Floor Analyses | | |1020 N Street, Suite 524 | | |(916) 651-1520 Fax: (916) | | |327-4478 | | ------------------------------------------------------------ UNFINISHED BUSINESS Bill No: SB 1542 Author: Migden (D), et al Amended: 8/23/06 Vote: 21 SENATE TRANSPORTATION & HOUSING COMMITTEE : 9-2, 4/18/06 AYES: Lowenthal, Ashburn, Cedillo, Ducheny, Kehoe, Machado, Simitian, Soto, Torlakson NOES: McClintock, Runner NO VOTE RECORDED: Dutton, Margett SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE : 3-1, 4/25/06 AYES: Dunn, Escutia, Kuehl NOES: Ackerman NO VOTE RECORDED: Vacancy SENATE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE : Senate Rule 28.8 SENATE FLOOR : 26-5, 5/18/06 AYES: Aanestad, Alarcon, Alquist, Ashburn, Cedillo, Chesbro, Denham, Ducheny, Escutia, Florez, Kehoe, Kuehl, Lowenthal, Machado, Migden, Morrow, Murray, Ortiz, Perata, Romero, Scott, Simitian, Soto, Speier, Torlakson, Vincent NOES: Ackerman, Cox, Dutton, Margett, McClintock NO VOTE RECORDED: Battin, Bowen, Dunn, Figueroa, Hollingsworth, Maldonado, Poochigian, Runner, Vacancy ASSEMBLY FLOOR : Not available SUBJECT : Motor vehicles: key information access CONTINUED SB 1542

 

Page 2 SOURCE : Automobile Club of Southern California California State Automobile Association DIGEST : This bill establishes a statutory scheme whereby a motor vehicle owner or family member could, through the use of a registered locksmith, access the needed information from the motor vehicle manufacturer to enable the locksmith to reproduce a replacement key that would enable the vehicle owner to enter, start and operate the motor vehicle. Assembly Amendments (1) require a vehicle manufacturer to retain and make the information required by this bill available for at least 25 years from the date of manufacture; (2) specify that the bill does not apply to a vehicle line of a motor vehicle manufacturer that sold between 2,500 and 5,000 vehicles of that line in the prior calendar year in the state, and sunsets this provision on January 1, 2013; (3) specify that the bill does not apply to a manufacturer make that sold fewer than 2,500 vehicles in the prior calendar year in the State; (4) specify the duties imposed on a manufacturer pursuant to this bill may be performed either by the manufacturer or by an agent through a contract; and (5) state that the provisions of this bill are severable.

 

ANALYSIS : Existing law does not address the issue of owner access to vehicle key information. This bill: 1.Makes various findings and declarations regarding the need for vehicle owners to be able to gain entry to and operate their vehicles in a timely, convenient, and reliable manner. 2.Requires motor vehicle manufacturers of new motor vehicles sold or leased on and after January 1, 2008, to provide the means whereby registered owners may, through a registered locksmith, access the information that is necessary to permit the production of a replacement key or other functionally similar device by the registered

 

SB 1542 Page 3 locksmith that will allow the owner to enter, start, and operate the vehicle. 3.Requires the means to access this information to be available by telephone or electronically 24 hours a day and seven days a week. 4.Specifies security procedures that must be followed by the vehicle's registered owner, the registered locksmith, and the vehicle manufacturer in order for the needed key duplication information to be made available by the manufacturer to the locksmith, and immunizes the manufacturer and locksmith from liability for theft of the vehicle if the statutory procedures are followed. These procedures include having the locksmith verify the identity of the requesting vehicle owner, and that the registration address matches the owner's address, and having the locksmith destroy all information in his or her possession that was accessed from the vehicle manufacturer after giving it to the vehicle owner. Manufacturer responsibilities would include requiring the locksmith to confirm his or her registration, complying with other reasonable authentication procedures, and confirming the verifications described above. 5.Defines, for the purposes of this bill, a "registered locksmith" as a locksmith licensed and bonded in California that has registered with a motor vehicle manufacturer and has been issued a registry number and security password by the manufacturer. A registered owner would also include a lessee of the vehicle when the lessee's name appears on the vehicle registration. 6.Defines, for the purposes of this bill, "information" to include the vehicle's key code, immobilizer or access code, and any successor technology or terminology. 7.Defines, for the purposes of this bill, "motor vehicle" to mean a passenger vehicle, but not a housecar, motorcycle, or other two-wheeled motor vehicle. 8.Exempts from this bill's requirements, until January 1, 2013, a vehicle manufacturer's vehicle line that sold between 2,500 and 5,000 vehicles in the prior calendar

 

SB 1542 Page 4 year in California. 9.Specifies that this bill does not apply to a vehicle line of a motor vehicle manufacturer that on January 1, 2006, does not provide for the reproduction of a key or other functionally similar device that allows the vehicle to be entered, started, and operated, by anyone other than the vehicle manufacturer itself and only itself, provided that the vehicle manufacturer operates a telephone or electronic request line 24 hours a day and seven days a week and, upon the request of the registered owner or his or her family member, furnishes to the registered owner at a reasonable cost within one day of the request or via the next overnight delivery, a replacement key or other functionally similar device that will allow the vehicle to be entered, started, and operated. 10.Sunsets the provisions described in # `9) above on January 1, 2013. 11.Specifies that this bill does not apply to a manufacturer that sold fewer than 2,500 vehicles in California in the prior calendar year. 12.Allows vehicle manufacturers to perform the duties assigned to them by this bill either by themselves or through the use of a contract agent. 13.Provides that if, subsequent to January 1, 2008, a vehicle line of an exempted manufacturer provides for the reproduction by anyone, other than the vehicle manufacturer itself, of a key or other functionally similar device that will allow the vehicle to be entered, started, and operated, this bill's provisions will apply to that vehicle line. 14.Provide that this bill's provisions are severable, so that if any particular provision is held inactive, that invalidity will not affect this bill's other provisions.

 

FISCAL EFFECT : Appropriation: No Fiscal Com.: Yes Local: Yes

 

SB 1542 Page 5 SUPPORT : (Verified 8/28/06) Automobile Club of Southern California (co-source) California State Automobile Association (co-source) City of Arcadia; Mayor of Burbank; Mayor of Canyon Lake; Mayor of Chino Hills; City of Encinitas; City of Hemet; Mayor of Hesperia; City of La Quinta; City of Los Angeles; Mayor of Norwalk; Mayor of Pasadena; City of Poway; Mayor of Redlands; Mayor of Redondo Beach; Mayor of Riverside; Mayor of San Bernardino; Mayor of San Clemente; Mayor of Santa Monica; Mayor of Tulare; City of Azusa Police Department; City of Downey Police Department; City of Guadalupe Police Department; Indio Police Department; Inglewood Police Department; City of Long Beach Police Department; City of Palm Springs Police Department; San Diego County Sheriff's Department; San Fernando Police Department; City of Santa Maria Police Department; City of Santa Monica Police Department; Signal Hill Police Department; University of California, Riverside Police Department; Apple Valley Fire Protection District; Chino Valley Independent Fire District; Corona Fire Department; El Cajon Fire Department; Kern County Fire Department & Office of Emergency Services; City of Redlands Fire Department; City of Riverside Fire Department; City of Santa Monica Fire Department; City of Tulare Fire Department; Town of Apple Valley; Association of California Insurance Companies; Associated Locksmiths of America, Inc.; California Association of Area Agencies on Aging; California Locksmiths Association, Inc.; Chambers of Commerce of Arcadia, Burbank, Canoga Park/West Hills, Chino Valley, Costa Mesa, Crenshaw, Downey, Hanford, Inglewood/Airport Area; Lakewood, Lindsay, Lompoc, Long Beach, Mid Valley, Montebello, Montrose, Pacific Palisades, Poway, Rancho Cucamonga, San Diego North, San Pedro Peninsula, Santa Clarita, Santa Maria Valley, Torrance Area, Ventura, and Winnetka; Valley Industry & Commerce Association; Consumers for Auto Reliability and Safety; Consumers Union; IKEA California, LLC; Keena Communications; Kern Transportation Foundation; Liberty Publications West; Personal Insurance Federation of California; Personnel & Management Association of Aztlan

 

OPPOSITION : (Verified 8/28/06) SB 1542 Page 6 Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers California Motor Car Dealers

 

ARGUMENTS IN SUPPORT : According to both the Automobile Club of Southern California and the California State Automobile Association (the AAA Clubs), " motorists are finding it more and more difficult to get replacement keys for their vehicles due to enhanced technology that requires special manufacturer's codes to mobilize the vehicle engine. Some manufacturers have provided the information necessary to reproduce a replacement key that operates the vehicle exclusively to their own dealers whose service departments only operate during regular business hours. Such limited access to this information can cause motorists not only significant inconveniences and added expense, but also could threaten their safety and well-being especially under circumstances when a replacement key is needed after normal business hours, on weekends, or when the motorist is in a remote location."

 

ARGUMENTS IN OPPOSITION : Despite the new security protocols adopted in this bill, the California Motor Car Dealers persist in their contention that this bill could compromise the anti-theft systems developed by vehicle manufacturers. CMCDA also expresses a second "fundamental" concern that the cost of any key replacement system contemplated by this bill will ultimately be passed on to all consumers, whether or not they lose their keys. JJA:do 8/28/06 Senate Floor

[MIKEBRAVO]

Idaho may be more appropriate. Then again look out - it's about to turn blue.

 

We don't really have freak blizzards or much cold, I'm more worried about the mtn lion that just ate my cat.

 

So it's always fun berating y'all about your ideas, I really need to get to work tho.

 

About that hunting thing, I think guns should be banned from hunting altogether - where's the challenge in pointing a gun & squeezing one off? Bow hunting, much better, much harder. Underwater spear hunting, now we're talking!

 

Just doesn't seem like much of a challenge to use guns, it doesn't exactly prove superiority of man vs animal, more like weapon vs no weapon.

 

The indians had it right tho - for hundreds of years the mark of a man was capturing a deer. By hand. How? They'd outrun it, literally.

 

Man has greater stamina when he's fit, he'd simply run after the deer, tracking it, chasing it. After a few hours the deer would exhaust itself & lay down. The man would kill it with a knife. Can you imagine the modern sportsman attempting that challenge, supersize belly & all?

 

I vaguely remember something in this thread about keys...

Now thats sick!!!!!!Terrorize and torture an animal for hours the brutaly hack it to death when it has given up all hope.

 

How about this instead, as you approach a clearing full of clover, you see a 8 point buck mounting one of three does. You set up, aim, and as a he finishes with the look of satisfaction on his on his mug and not a care in the world, you let one rip. Dropping him with one blow killing him instantly. Now thats the way to die. Naked, satisfied in a field with your b*tches.

 

Oh, I like keys too, got to keep this on topic

[highlander]

Can you imagine the modern sportsman attempting that challenge, supersize belly & all?

 

 

Got to remember to disable webcam....got to remember to disable webcam......

 

 

The intent behind the key law has merit, but the legislators failed to think it through to the end.

 

If the MFGS stop making the immobilizers standard, then insuarance goes up.

If they MFGS require keys, codes, databases to be maintained 24/7 car prices go up.

Locksmiths will now have the ability to charge $200 for your key, plus the service call.

 

The valet key securely hidden on the car sounds better and better.

 

 

I look for cars to eliminate the metal keys anyway.

 

Many no longer use them for ignition..... Locks are just the next step.

[MIKEBRAVO]

Assembly Amendments (1) require a vehicle manufacturer to retain and make the information required by this bill available for at least 25 years from the date of manufacture;

25 years WOW

[highlander]

How many dealers will still be im business under the same corporation after 25 years?

 

Who's responsible when they sell, do under, or go the way of Oldsmobile?

[MIKEBRAVO]

YOU KNOW WHAT, THIS WHOLE THING IS DUMB. Its not the auto makers responciblity if we lose our keys. However, how bout this, issue each new owner the code on purchase, they inturn send it to AAA / insurance co who issues it to the locksmith who uses it immobilize the immobilizer. Both AAA and insurance co are 24 hour businesses with a vested interest in your well being.

[Deer Killer]

YOU KNOW WHAT, THIS WHOLE THING IS DUMB. Its not the auto makers responciblity if we lose our keys. However, how bout this, issue each new owner the code on purchase, they inturn send it to AAA / insurance co who issues it to the locksmith who uses it immobilize the immobilizer. Both AAA and insurance co are 24 hour businesses with a vested interest in your well being.

No, this is WHY government exists, to protect the weak from from the strong - i.e. anarchy. Automakers basically have monopoly power to do as they wish. If it wasn't for the government you would have to buy subaru branded fuel for $6 a gallon because anything else would void your warranty.

 

Real conservatives are fundamentalist douchebags who can't see past their own nose and stick to a small set of rules because this is all they can comprehend - exactly like religious fundamentalists. That being said a lot of people who call themselves conservatives are not really conservatives. The constitution and the 2nd/etc amendment are liberal ideas.

[zmarko]

Its not the auto makers responciblity if we lose our keys.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

[ZinFreak]

YOU KNOW WHAT, THIS WHOLE THING IS DUMB. Its not the auto makers responciblity if we lose our keys. However, how bout this, issue each new owner the code on purchase, they inturn send it to AAA / insurance co who issues it to the locksmith who uses it immobilize the immobilizer. Both AAA and insurance co are 24 hour businesses with a vested interest in your well being.

 

Sounds like MIKEBRAVO is advocating the bill's language

 

Page 2 SOURCE : Automobile Club of Southern California California State Automobile Association DIGEST : This bill establishes a statutory scheme whereby a motor vehicle owner or family member could, through the use of a registered locksmith, access the needed information from the motor vehicle manufacturer to enable the locksmith to reproduce a replacement key that would enable the vehicle owner to enter, start and operate the motor vehicle.

 

The locksmith is the "proxy" to get the information from someone. Doesn't matter who the proxy is, you'd pay that proxy to maintain the information.

Personally, I could give a crap about the bill. And I care less for how you guys are treating each other.

 

Fact of the matter is that the manufacturers build in security into the vehicle, I shouldn't be constrained into having to buy a new key from the dealer. If you lose your key(s), you become hostage to the dealership. They could charge whatever they want.

 

Yes my key is my responsibility, but if my alternator dies, I don't have to buy a "special" alternator from the dealer for $4,000. I can go to Napa auto parts or whoever and buy it at a competitive price.

 

It's called free market capitalism. The government seriously frowns on anti-competitive behaviors.

 

Be well, don't be a$$holes.

[PolarDog]

Just curious, has anyone here locked themselves out of their car?