The New Pontiac GTO

[Whitestar Pilot]

After canceling the Firebird line-up in 02, Pontiac, GM's "performance division" has revived the GTO nameplate. A moment of silence now... to pray for the poor souls (only about 3,000 thusfar) who actually bought one of those atrocities this year. Where to start? Okay first of all, the car is fugly. It is too similiar to the Grand Am--except wait--the dual ram-air inlets on the Grand Am look WAY BETTER than the stupid hood they slapped on the GTO. Second, they put the LS1 Trans Am motor in there. Nice power, but not anything new, and not anything to get excited about. Its been around since the '97 Vette. Since the Trans Am was only... oh, about 300 times better looking than the GTO, I wonder how many wealthy Pontiac enthusiasts ended up buying a Trans Am out of someone's storage barn, rather than opting for this new LS1 Grand Am. And third, to anyone who did buy the GTO, Pontiac has now destroyed your resale value (and screwed the dealers who are still holding onto their Grand Goats), by announcing that the '05 GTO will now be powered by the new LS2 GM Corvette motor. Long gone are the days when Pontiac can power a musclecar with an exclusive motor. So now its the corporate LS2. 400 Horsepower, high 12s right off the showroom floor. That's right folks, anyone who originally bought a GTO is now, less than a year later, driving a completely obsolete model, doomed to be passed from car auction to car auction, much like the fate of the 1984 Crossfire Vette. The whole notion of giving the GTO the LS2 so soon is absolutely ludicrous. In the past, everytime GM introduced a new motor for the Vette, the F-body line-up received that motor 1 to 2 years later. If I remember correctly, this is how it went with the 5.7 Tuned-Port (85 Vette, 87 Iroc, GTA, Formula 350), the LT-1 (92 Vette, 93 New F-body), and the LS1 (97 Vette, 98 F-body). Never did a new powerplant debut in the F-body line-up at the same time as the Vette, but this GTO, being the special little darling that it is, gets the nod for the LS2 the same year as the Vette. Actually what's happening here is that GM is trying desperately to save the GTO from an early grave. They are trying to correct problem #2 I've listed, but in the process have turned their back on the few supporting buyers for the GTO that they originally had. The GTO originally should have been a different platform, powered by a unique powerplant. Nobody has been fooled by this retro-gone-bad blunder, and soon we will all be able to wave good-bye to this monstrosity. And so concludes the rant of a former LS1 Trans Am owner, who ironically, decided to trade for a performance sedan when the time came. But did I even test drive the GTO before buying the Legacy GT? Uhm... no.

[hdow Drgon]

Myself owning an F-body I've come to set a few things straight in your post. The GTO is NOT a replacement for an F-body Trans Am, so don't expect it to look better than a Black WS6 Trans Am. As of October 1st Pontiac has sold 8308 units since December 2003. Oh and 2,678 of those were sold in September alone. If they keep at least 2,500 GTOs sold per month then that's 13,000 at the end of the year, very close to the 18,000 GM wanted for first year sales. [quote]Never did a new powerplant debut in the F-body line-up at the same time as the Vette, but this GTO, being the special little darling that it is, gets the nod for the LS2 the same year as the Vette. [/quote] Let me say again that the GTO isn't an F-body or an F-body replacement. You also forgot to add that the SSR also gets the LS2 with a six speed. [quote]The GTO originally should have been a different platform, powered by a unique powerplant. Nobody has been fooled by this retro-gone-bad blunder, and soon we will all be able to wave good-bye to this monstrosity. [/quote] What platform would it have been put on? GM isn't even finished with all the Kappa variants. Unique powerplant? Ha! This "retro-gone-bad" as you call is a rebadge from Australia. It will be here in 05 with a bit more exterior tweaking and that mighty LS2 once again from Australia. And to top it all off the GTO will be built in America in 07 or 08. So be prepared to be waving at, not good-bye, to that V8, RWD, tire smoking Pontiac.

[Trent Bates]

Rants and suppositions aside, I gave it a thought since I also own a '98 GTP. I felt that the current body styles and interior desgns of both the GT/GTP and GTOs are bland and uninspiring. Everytime I see a GTO, I don't feel excited about it. It's just there. It doesn't do anything for me like a WS6 does. The GTO is known as a Holden in Australia. It's been around for many years in that market. I've seen pictures of it floating around since 1999 I believe. It's a shame that early buyers may be left with a less desirable car, but we face the same fate if Subaru makes big changes for the '06 Legacy and/or offers an STi version.

[eatV8]

When you refer to what looks better it is always personal preference. I personally dislike the look of the Camaros and Firebirds. However the Pontiac GTO/Holden Monaro is VERY old now. That car was based off the 1997 VT Commodore. It's styling is like that of the old monaro(1970's), a coupe version of the sedan, which it ws back when released. While the sedan models have been updated over the years the coupe kept the same face. As for high 12 second ¼ miles, I am not sure since in Aust they have a 300kw (402hp) LS6 powered model (The HSV GTS) and its best time is around 13.3. The chassis is extremly old under that car also. 2006 is when Holden start using the new chassis. Should be pretty good.I didn't know they were going to be building the GTO in USA, I know there is a good possibility that the next GTO will have its own styling while sharing its underpinnings with Holden... In the end you must remember why the GTO is here... GM killed the FOX platform (Camaro suppose to be coming back but Firebird not?) Bob Lutz saw the Holden, liked it and gave it to Pontiac since they had nothing exciting left in the stable. Also about Pontiac using a "unique" engine for the GTO? Could they really justify the cost of a unique engine? Also as to saying about all the people who bought the 2004 with less powerful engine? It always happens, look at all the Z06 owners now sharing an output with the base Corvette, yes a new model but it happens. Also mensioned above, the SSR also gets the LS2. I know this is poorly written and all over the place, but it contains all the info I wanted to get across I think. Cheers

[Whitestar Pilot]

[quote name='§h@dow Dr@gon']Myself owning an F-body I've come to set a few things straight in your post. The GTO is NOT a replacement for an F-body Trans Am, so don't expect it to look better than a Black WS6 Trans Am. As of October 1st Pontiac has sold 8308 units since December 2003. Oh and 2,678 of those were sold in September alone. If they keep at least 2,500 GTOs sold per month then that's 13,000 at the end of the year, very close to the 18,000 GM wanted for first year sales. [quote]Never did a new powerplant debut in the F-body line-up at the same time as the Vette, but this GTO, being the special little darling that it is, gets the nod for the LS2 the same year as the Vette. [/quote] Let me say again that the GTO isn't an F-body or an F-body replacement. You also forgot to add that the SSR also gets the LS2 with a six speed. [quote]The GTO originally should have been a different platform, powered by a unique powerplant. Nobody has been fooled by this retro-gone-bad blunder, and soon we will all be able to wave good-bye to this monstrosity. [/quote] What platform would it have been put on? GM isn't even finished with all the Kappa variants. Unique powerplant? Ha! This "retro-gone-bad" as you call is a rebadge from Australia. It will be here in 05 with a bit more exterior tweaking and that mighty LS2 once again from Australia. And to top it all off the GTO will be built in America in 07 or 08. So be prepared to be waving at, not good-bye, to that V8, RWD, tire smoking Pontiac.[/quote] I don't know where you got those numbers. I have to go to work now, but later I'll research this and post again. The GTO is a dismal sales failure, its ugly and as others have said, its based off a 1997 Australian Holden (I already knew that it was manufactured in Australia, but was unaware that the design was so old). Its not a true American Musclecar by any stretch. Not meant to be an F-body replacement? It replaced the WS6 TA as Pontiac's flagship car. So yes it is, and a remarkably POS replacement at that. And it will be dead soon.

[hdow Drgon]

I think all of our statement are poorly written Eat V8, but you did get your point across. 8) [quote]It's a shame that early buyers may be left with a less desirable car, but we face the same fate if Subaru makes big changes for the '06 Legacy and/or offers an STi version.[/quote] Same with all the "gotta have it" crowds. G6 GTP will be offered mid year, but the G6 is out now, you mentioned the Legacy owners now, Mazda 6 AWD, There's a Volvo car out there that's got an engine swap next year, a bit backwards, but the next Mustang Cobra will be NA, so the 03/04 Cobra owners got damn lucky. The C6 Corvette now and the Z06 version next year. Caddy CTS-V and the STS-V comes out next year I believe. And just for kicks: Playstation/Xbox at $299.99 and now at $150. [quote]I don't know where you got those numbers. I have to go to work now, but later I'll research this and post again. The GTO is a dismal sales failure, its ugly and as others have said, its based off a 1997 Australian Holden (I already knew that it was manufactured in Australia, but was unaware that the design was so old). Its not a true American Musclecar by any stretch. Not meant to be an F-body replacement? It replaced the WS6 TA as Pontiac's flagship car. So yes it is, and a remarkably POS replacement at that. And it will be dead soon.[/quote] Research all you like, the only way those numbers are off is if Pontiac has sold more. Ugly doesn't matter when the numbers are there. As far as the 97 Holden the GTO was based from, need I remind you the last time your F-body platform was updated? Research that while you're at it. The GTO did NOT replace the WS6 Trans Am. GM did not ANYWHERE say/publish/commercial say/press note that anywhere. Also the WS6 TA isn't Pontiacs flagship car and even that doesn't matter since they were changing the direction of the company. Anyone else notice that Pontiac and GM in general are offering better quality products? ;) Oh, and I'll wager any amount that the GTO is here to stay buddy.

[Whitestar Pilot]

I wouldn't get too excited about a Legacy STi either, the STi Impreza didn't come out until 04, right? The WRX has been around since??? I don't expect any Earth-shattering changes in the Legacy for a couple of years. LS1 Corvettes are now obsolete, but they had a nice run. The Z06 is not obsolete, nor should any buyer of a Z06 feel outclassed by the C6 Vette. Another thing that really upsets me is that the Trans Am in 03 could have had an optional LS6 powerplant, and it would have sold in much larger quantities than the Australian LS1 Grand Am that they've badged the "GTO."

[hdow Drgon]

[quote]LS1 Corvettes are now obsolete, but they had a nice run. The Z06 is not obsolete, nor should any buyer of a Z06 feel outclassed by the C6 Vette.[/quote] Let's break this statement down to logistics for ya. The LS2 is UNDERrated at 400hp/400tq at the crank and I've got picture proof of an LS2 vs LS6 Dynograph if you REALLY must see it. The C6 has better build and interior quality than the Z06, The C6 is only 150lbs heavier than the C5 Z06, BUT has more cubes. Also research where the wheels are on the new C6. It's not like you'll ever see a stock Z06 race a C6, but alot of the Z06 owners have already bought their C6 and many current Z06 owners that are holding out for the C6 Z06 are counting how many mods it takes to stay ahead of the C6 Z51 package. LS2 vs LS6 Dynograph: [url]http://64.81.147.40//albums/album50/P4237723.jpg[/url]

[eatV8]

I know!! Instead of GM bringing the Holden Monaro here as the GTO maybe GM should of given people like you a real USA muscle car? Perhaps a re-skinned Impala SS with that supercharged V6 and front wheel drive to boot? :lol: Not only is the GTO here to stay, but watch for more of the Holden Commodore based cars making their way to the USA when the all new chassis etc arrives. Holden Commodore Ute, El Camino anyone?! :D SS Commodore Sedan - GM's affordible RWD V8 to challenge the Hemi powered 300c and Dodge Charger to come...

[agctr]

Well said eatV8, with the US not really having ANY car maker in the US that exports, expect more cars from Australia (especially Holden Commodores) to be shipped into the US. To accomodate this, Australia's Monaro design will be taking on a new nose development program as we have found that our nose doesnt meant the safety and crash standards of the US. All you have to look at is the difference between the USDM and JDM front and rear bumperbars. For us to change the nose everytime a car leaves the factory here in Oz to go to the US, the expense of making the new nose is quite expensive, thus making a new nose here that will be incorporated into our AUSDM model would be more price competitive. America is a massive market for our Holden brand here in Australia and with us importing your V8 engines and us exporting our cars back to the US, it can only extend ties and bonds between our to countries more. As eatV8 stated above, America be ready for the onslaught of homegrown Australia V8's. GAME OVER Adam.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Instead, when the new holden/gm RWD platform arrives, perhaps the sedan Commodore will be the answer to the Dodge Charger sedan, and 300C SRT 8. And better yet, will wrench the name Impala SS back from that abysmal FWD excuse that it is now. I was thinking the other day, if in the truck/SUV crazy market out there, if a new El Camino/Ranchero style vehicle would succeed. The quad-cab small trucks (Nissan, and Subaru's Baja seem to be in that class already.) Who knows, maybe another retro nameplate in the near future. Now if they can just design it so that it isn't ugly. GM designers seem to be having a hard time with that over the last decade or more.

[hdow Drgon]

[quote name='IwannaSportSedan']Instead, when the new holden/gm RWD platform arrives, perhaps the sedan Commodore will be the answer to the Dodge Charger sedan, and 300C SRT 8.[/quote] Well...the holden/gm platform is already finished. It's called Kappa. The cars planned for it won't be out to compete with the Charger Sedan or the 300C SRT-8, that's what the GTO is for. [quote]And better yet, will wrench the name Impala SS back from that abysmal FWD excuse that it is now.[/quote] Prepare for 5.3 V8 and RWD.....soon. [quote]I was thinking the other day, if in the truck/SUV crazy market out there, if a new El Camino/Ranchero style vehicle would succeed. The quad-cab small trucks (Nissan, and Subaru's Baja seem to be in that class already.) Who knows, maybe another retro nameplate in the near future. [/quote] GM has been looking to do this, but there was something that needed to be passed in Aussie territory for the El Camino bring back. Agctr may be able to elaborate a bit more on it, but if I find the info again, I'll be sure to post it. EDIT: Link found: [url]http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200408/s1175638.htm[/url]

[IwannaSportSedan]

Kappa is too small. That is what the Solstice, and the still-born Vauxhall VX Lightning, and potentially new Saabs and opels are to be based on. Supposedly the VX Lightning will be built as a new saturn roadster, which is the worst possible thing to happen to the only truly great GM concept car in entirely too long. Of course it was penned by a Brit, not by the corporate designers in the US who can't seem to get-r-done. Evidently Vauxhall can't use it because it doesn't meet the EU Nanny-state's pedestrian safety standards, because the hood isn't two feet above the engine block, and doesn't cave in like tin-foil, or some stupid thing. Other proposed cost-sharing measures may get the kappa platform re-engineered for the euro market, and make it possible. Kappa is a compact to mid-sized platform. The Holden Commodore and Monaro are more mid-fullsize cars than that. I can't imagine they would downsize the Holdens like that. Maybe, Stranger things have happened. I am gonna toss my lunch if they convert the current ugly impala to RWD and put a V8 in it. It would be one more missed opportunity to right the wrongs that have been done in the General's name. The GTO can't really hope to compete with a 4 door sedan and wagon. There is no match on interior useability and utility. And the sedans and wagons won't handle, accellerate or brake like a GTO coupe. If anything, the GTO competes with the Mustang Cobra. GM can't convince anyone to buy a big coupe GTO to someone who needs 4 doors, or a wagon interior. Won't happen. A Holden full-size sedan/wagon variant, sold as a Pontiac or Chevy (Tempest, Bel Air, and Nomad, anyone?) might do the trick. With GM's badge engineering, Buick might get it as a luxo-RWD model, like a RoadMaster, or something. Maybe even the replacement DeVille, if they can make it over enough, and stretch it a bit. Thank God, or which ever deity you pray to, that Subaru isn't lorded over by GM, and they can still make their own cars. Here's hoping they always will.

[hdow Drgon]

[quote]Kappa is a compact to mid-sized platform. The Holden Commodore and Monaro are more mid-fullsize cars than that. I can't imagine they would downsize the Holdens like that. Maybe, Stranger things have happened.[/quote] Model year 2008, mid-size platform, V8 and RWD. Oh, and think Chevy for the Kappa platform. XP54 Platform to be exact. Think about that...... 8) As for the Imp SS I didn't mean for THAT to go on Kappa.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I can't imagine that Austrailians are going to be happy, with their big, muscular Holdens getting downsized to the size of a current Malibu, or a Saab 9-5. I know those are currently FWD, but I was under the impression that the platform known as "Kappa" was a global RWD platform that was mid-sized at it's largest. Maybe something for the new Saturn L-series. I think the Caddy CTS might be that big, or slightly bigger. Which platform is the new Caddy STS based on? That seems a bit more appropriate for a Holden/Pontiac/Chevy/Buick badge engineering excercise.

[hdow Drgon]

I did make a mistake though. I meant Zeta not Kappa. Derr hur hur The new STS is on Sigma

[Whitestar Pilot]

[quote name='Whitestar Pilot'][quote name='§h@dow Dr@gon']Myself owning an F-body I've come to set a few things straight in your post. The GTO is NOT a replacement for an F-body Trans Am, so don't expect it to look better than a Black WS6 Trans Am. As of October 1st Pontiac has sold 8308 units since December 2003. Oh and 2,678 of those were sold in September alone. If they keep at least 2,500 GTOs sold per month then that's 13,000 at the end of the year, very close to the 18,000 GM wanted for first year sales. [quote]Never did a new powerplant debut in the F-body line-up at the same time as the Vette, but this GTO, being the special little darling that it is, gets the nod for the LS2 the same year as the Vette. [/quote] Let me say again that the GTO isn't an F-body or an F-body replacement. You also forgot to add that the SSR also gets the LS2 with a six speed. [quote]The GTO originally should have been a different platform, powered by a unique powerplant. Nobody has been fooled by this retro-gone-bad blunder, and soon we will all be able to wave good-bye to this monstrosity. [/quote] What platform would it have been put on? GM isn't even finished with all the Kappa variants. Unique powerplant? Ha! This "retro-gone-bad" as you call is a rebadge from Australia. It will be here in 05 with a bit more exterior tweaking and that mighty LS2 once again from Australia. And to top it all off the GTO will be built in America in 07 or 08. So be prepared to be waving at, not good-bye, to that V8, RWD, tire smoking Pontiac.[/quote] I don't know where you got those numbers. I have to go to work now, but later I'll research this and post again. The GTO is a dismal sales failure, its ugly and as others have said, its based off a 1997 Australian Holden (I already knew that it was manufactured in Australia, but was unaware that the design was so old). Its not a true American Musclecar by any stretch. Not meant to be an F-body replacement? It replaced the WS6 TA as Pontiac's flagship car. So yes it is, and a remarkably POS replacement at that. And it will be dead soon.[/quote] Alright, after further digging, I would say that 8,000 units as of Oct 1 is accurate. I can't find production #s for the Firebird, but by comparison, GM produced 42,000 Camaros in 2002 (Firebird #s will obviously be lower). At current pace 13,000 GTOs sold? Out of 18,000 produced? Thats pretty sorry, really it is, as any new car dealership manager will tell you. One thing that REALLY hurts this car is the $31-32K pricetag. I believe the WS6 TAs were fetching in the upper $20Ks, maybe touching $30K in the final runs of 02. So why would the GTO be more expensive??? Sounds like badge mark-up to me, and that's another reason why I didn't even give this car a look. Thank God for small miracles, too. If I were one of the 8,000 people that bought this car, I'd be pretty upset to see its resale value tank as dealerships scramble to unload 5,000 unwanted units at the end of year closeout, with 400-horse 05 models sitting next to them. I guess I'm just one of those people that meant it when I said I'd never buy another GM if they canceled the F-body. IF the LS2 motor doesn't save this car, it will die. Just like the set of Battlefield Earth II, they will shut the program down, folks (That's programme, for you guys in Australia :lol: ). Somebody at GM better get off their lazy arse and design a new Trans Am (like they should have done in 04), or they can continue to give up market-share to Mitsubishi, Mazda, and Subaru (yes I know they own 25% of Subaru, God Help Us All).

[hdow Drgon]

[quote]I guess I'm just one of those people that meant it when I said I'd never buy another GM if they canceled the F-body. [/quote] Well...that's your reason to bash the GTO. If you're just bitter with GM because they dropped the F-bodies then why should I continue to argue about the GTO with you? Your mind is made up. As far as your sales figures go you're wrong, the final years of the F-body SS and WS6s were [b]$35,000[/b] cars. So, WS6 Trans Am vs GTO, $35k new vs $32k new, rickety interior vs well made interior, back seats for dwarfs vs beack seats for adults, straight-line performance vs all around performance, and last but not least, boy racer vs mature looks. And to TOP all of that off, GM incentives have put the GTO at $27k MSRP. A STEAL at that price. I'm still searching for a daily driver and the Leg GT is definitely an option, but the GTO and C5 Corvettes on sale are definitely keeping me from just pulling the trigger, but I need a practical daily driver. Not something in the garage that I heard at night saying, "Mod me" Another thing, Mitsubishi is bankrupt in Japan last I heard. and I really am sorry to say it again, but the GTO is here to stay and the Firebird is definitely dead.

[eatV8]

Camaro is suppose to be making a come back, but the Firebird is not. Both being GM this makes sence to me. Ok there will be Loyal Pontiac buyers wanting a Trans Am, but the performance car market is getting so packed at the moment I think the GTO is a good idea. It appeals to a different persons needs. Why have two cars so simular competing in a tight market (camaro and trans am) The LS2 will definatley boost sales and now everyone has got their beloved hood scoops they bitched about it should help also... Thats one more thing I just dont get. The original GTO was a basic looking car with a big engine under the hood. It wasnt some extreme car that just grabbed attension. It blended in... Which the Holden does in my opinion :roll:

[hdow Drgon]

[quote name='eatV8']Camaro is suppose to be making a come back, but the Firebird is not. Both being GM this makes sence to me. Ok there will be Loyal Pontiac buyers wanting a Trans Am, but the performance car market is getting so packed at the moment I think the GTO is a good idea. It appeals to a different persons needs. Why have two cars so simular competing in a tight market (camaro and trans am) The LS2 will definatley boost sales and now everyone has got their beloved hood scoops they bitched about it should help also... Thats one more thing I just dont get. The original GTO was a basic looking car with a big engine under the hood. It wasnt some extreme car that just grabbed attension. It blended in... Which the Holden does in my opinion :roll:[/quote] EatV8 hit it. Zeta variant called "Torrana" will supposedly be the Camaro architecture. The ORIGINAL GTO was a Ferrari and Pontiac DARED to say that the 60s GTO was a direct competitor to that of Ferraris. To be factual all the hood scoops/body moldings that the "original" pontiac GTO had were, in fact, not functional. And as EatV8 put it the original pontiac gto looked just like the pontiac tempest.

[scubie02]

You know, I was sort fo scratching my head initially at the GTO, because I have to admit I sort of agreed with the "it looks like a big Cavalier" crowd. But once I got a chance to sit in one I have to say I was much more impressed--the interior is light years ahead of most GM interiors. And I have heard that there are incentives out where you can supposedly get one for $26k! Thats a pretty amazing drop. Of course they will need it to unload the ones left now if the new ones will get that big of a hp boost. Sure, the performance isn't really blistering as it now stands, but its still respectable and its more og a GT car anyway--a comfy cruiser. Still, if it were me, I'd have to be looking at the new mustang, especially the new svt one or whatever they are going to call the 400+hp one with IRS for 2005.

[eatV8]

Also being an LS1 cheap power adding is right at hands :) If the LS1's become very cheap when LS2 comes out I may consider one...

[Whitestar Pilot]

[quote name='§h@dow Dr@gon'][quote name='eatV8']Camaro is suppose to be making a come back, but the Firebird is not. Both being GM this makes sence to me. Ok there will be Loyal Pontiac buyers wanting a Trans Am, but the performance car market is getting so packed at the moment I think the GTO is a good idea. It appeals to a different persons needs. Why have two cars so simular competing in a tight market (camaro and trans am) The LS2 will definatley boost sales and now everyone has got their beloved hood scoops they bitched about it should help also... Thats one more thing I just dont get. The original GTO was a basic looking car with a big engine under the hood. It wasnt some extreme car that just grabbed attension. It blended in... Which the Holden does in my opinion :roll:[/quote] EatV8 hit it. Zeta variant called "Torrana" will supposedly be the Camaro architecture. The ORIGINAL GTO was a Ferrari and Pontiac DARED to say that the 60s GTO was a direct competitor to that of Ferraris. To be factual all the hood scoops/body moldings that the "original" pontiac GTO had were, in fact, not functional. And as EatV8 put it the original pontiac gto looked just like the pontiac tempest.[/quote] You don't have a link to a picture of this 'Torrana,' do you? Also, I figured something was up with the factory rebates when I keep seeing a brief shot of the GTO on TV and the commercial says, "Stop by your dealer today for a GREAT DEAL." Another reason for poor sales may be that Pontiacs are just plain expensive to insure. Coverage for my 05 LGT actually dropped $50 over 6 months when I switched to it from my aging 99 Trans Am. There's no doubt the LS1 GTO has tons more 1/4 mile potential than an LGT though, I would never suggest otherwise.

[eatV8]

[quote name='Whitestar Pilot'][quote name='§h@dow Dr@gon'][quote name='eatV8']Camaro is suppose to be making a come back, but the Firebird is not. Both being GM this makes sence to me. Ok there will be Loyal Pontiac buyers wanting a Trans Am, but the performance car market is getting so packed at the moment I think the GTO is a good idea. It appeals to a different persons needs. Why have two cars so simular competing in a tight market (camaro and trans am) The LS2 will definatley boost sales and now everyone has got their beloved hood scoops they bitched about it should help also... Thats one more thing I just dont get. The original GTO was a basic looking car with a big engine under the hood. It wasnt some extreme car that just grabbed attension. It blended in... Which the Holden does in my opinion :roll:[/quote] EatV8 hit it. Zeta variant called "Torrana" will supposedly be the Camaro architecture. The ORIGINAL GTO was a Ferrari and Pontiac DARED to say that the 60s GTO was a direct competitor to that of Ferraris. To be factual all the hood scoops/body moldings that the "original" pontiac GTO had were, in fact, not functional. And as EatV8 put it the original pontiac gto looked just like the pontiac tempest.[/quote] You don't have a link to a picture of this 'Torrana,' do you? Also, I figured something was up with the factory rebates when I keep seeing a brief shot of the GTO on TV and the commercial says, "Stop by your dealer today for a GREAT DEAL." Another reason for poor sales may be that Pontiacs are just plain expensive to insure. Coverage for my 05 LGT actually dropped $50 over 6 months when I switched to it from my aging 99 Trans Am. There's no doubt the LS1 GTO has tons more 1/4 mile potential than an LGT though, I would never suggest otherwise.[/quote] The Torana will be debuted at the Sydney International motor show. Based off the Kappa with a Twin Turbo version of GM's Global V6. This thing will be #$%!ing quick! [url]http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/D63A22FB57F502FACA256F17001C1F1E[/url]

[hdow Drgon]

[url]http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/6/web/270000-270999/270292_92_full.jpg[/url] [url]http://69.56.135.118/~hrt433/vy/images/slr6200.jpg[/url] [url]http://69.56.135.118/~hrt433/images/pscomp4.jpg[/url] These are some chops of Torrana use for Aussie cars. The Sydney show Torrana will be a sedan and from Eat V8s article this is the most important thing in there: [quote]Mr Lutz agreed the concept could form the basis for a new medium rear-wheel drive architecture that Holden would develop for the GM world, along the same lines as the Zeta large and long wheelbase architecture.[/quote] I'm trying to get more info now. Oh, and what do EatV8 and I get for giving you all of this information? :wink: :woowoo: