tytek Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 waiting for the diesel option Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaykay Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 I need a small wagon with Automatic, specifically sized like the Impreza. The current WRX automatic with the 4EAT with no sportshift or SI-Drive is a miserable specimen. Providing the VTD AWD system, the 2.5Turbo engine, a steering ratio quicker than the Legacy GT and a suspension setup stiffer than the Legacy GT and then putting in the weak 4EAT with no sportshift or SI-drive, is a decision that I simply cannot understand. Especially, for a small wagon that sells for $ 27K+... The product planner who made the decision to put in the 4EAT with no sportshift or SI-Drive in an otherwise well setup WRX Wagon EAT, should be sent into forcible retirement, with all retirement benefits denied. They should also blacken his face, shave his head and list his name in the Subaru hall-of-shame, as someone who wasted scarce Subaru resources in bringing out a product that was specifically designed not to sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaykay Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 Just to be absolutely clear for people who will suggest the 2.5i Wagon as an option, in response to my post above... I drove the 2.5i and its sloppy and slow steering response and weak suspension, along with the FWD biased AWD system (as opposed to the VTD of the WRX EAT), was absolutely not what I had in mind when thinking of a sporty wagon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWP-LegacyGT Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 PDX: What can I say? That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. However, while I don't consider you or anyone else to be a "pussy" for owning an automatic, I take exception to the allusion you make that I fall into a group of people that "don't know how to drive" and call automatic owner's rude names. For us, dealing with substantial traffic isn't an issue. And like a lot of people, I'm sure the day will come when I prefer an automatic myself. But for now, anyway, this is the choice I and millions like me make. If Subaru puts a DSG in an upcoming STi Legacy, that will change in short order. (And BTW, that will mean that I'll have two Subaru's - so much for my being an apparent snob.) If my post appears a bit over-stated, I apologize. But two successive posts in which people make errant assumptions about the kind of person I am gets me a tad upset. PDX - your post does not make sense. You want choice, but you also blast those who want to have choice of transmisson. WTF? If you want slushbox, have it, noone of those enthusiast here who moan lack of LGT wagon with manual transmission, deny you that choice. Alright let me get a couple things cleared up. TurboAWD : I'm in no way shape or form calling you the names of an fellow automatic owner. What I've found in the enthusist community is one of harsh/rash judgemental opinions that tend to lean towards calling owners of automatics the mentioned names because they won't row their own gears. I think it's great that Subaru gave us a choice with a 5 speed sport shift auto that honestly holds it own against Audi's Tiptronic (and I would say is a little bit better than that). You get a lot of performance oriented people in a room and they'll bitch you out for buying a "slushbox" because that's not a "real" car. I for one am sick of being called the names and quite frankly the price/performance ratio is getting to be so close now between the manual's and the automatics... people who argue one is better than the other just need to save their breathe. Also, you seem like a stand up guy, I want to make sure that you know, personally from me, that I'm in no way attacking you, your wife or your decession to get the Outback XT and with the 5EAT. I think it's great that you're part of the family and from the looks of your avatar, you've owned an S4 (or currently own one) so I know you're the type of guy who respects and values the cars he owns. My main points were expressed soley at some of the people on the board that get bent out of shape when it comes to modding/tuning or flicking crap over buying an Auto Vs Manual. I hope that clears the air with that. Unclemat : How doesn't my post make sense? it was my impressions of what Subaru is doing right. My opinion over the fact that I own two Auto's is again taking a stance against people who fling crap at car owners who own Auto's instead of Sticks. If Subaru deems that the LegacyGT wagon doesn't get a manual transmission, that's their agenda, not mine. My point was being made (again....) that sometimes manual owners get too big of a chip on their shoulders. Some other points worth mentioning is if Subaru does get a DSG tranny in their Impreza STI or even a Legacy line (dare I say Legacy STI) sometime in the near future, you bet your ass I'll be swapping up to that because those are some of the best transmissions in the world and some of the more fun cars to drive. Overall I think Subaru is keeping most of the choices available to the market and I think 2008/2009 will be an extension of those choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickster Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 I no longer own my Subie, but I check back here from time to time because I've always liked the looks of the LGT. Basically, last March, on a whim I traded in my WRX (which had been flawless for the five years of ownership. Only required oil changes & scheduled maintenance. Also bought 4 new Michelins Pilot A/S tires) for a CPO VW R32. While the R32 interior has a much more luxurious feel to it, it has not been the pillar of reliability I had hoped for. After three months of ownership, I got stuck in an awful torrential downpour during the summer. Essentially, my engine stalled out while going through some standing water. When all I was said & done, I needed a new engine (old one hydrolocked going through the water). I'm extremely grateful that insurance covered the damages. Had it not been for insurance, I would have been out of pocket close to $13,000! Since then, I've been on pins & needles as to what may go wrong next. It doesn't exactly inspire me to take the car out for a casual roadtrip as my WRX did. Additionally, a neighbor of mine recently purchased a brand new 2006 Passat with 3.6 engine & 4motion. I swear that car has spent more time in the shop than his garage! There was engine work required & then the high tech HID's have gone out not once but twice! So, for all these very reasons I would consider going back to Subaru for my next car. Peace of mind & reliability are more import to me now. I just hope Subaru will still make a manual transmission Spec B (or some other variation) by the time I get out of my loan in three years or so. -Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Well I'm already out of the Subaru camp, to bring me back about the only thing would be a 'proper' Legacy STI. Otherwise it's off to BMW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gfxdave99 Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Read today another article stating that they will be dropping the impreza name and calling all of them WRX's If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough. - Mario Andretti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew.anderson Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 ...only thing would be a 'proper' Legacy STI. Otherwise it's off to BMW. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d175/AndersonAndrew/subiebmw.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highlander Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 ^^^^^^^ Love it! New decal concept. Thanks! Perfect quarter window size/shape. Vir Est Fatum Ut Perficio Concepta Suus Progenies. - Man is destined to fulfill the capacity of his lineage (i.e. Darwinism) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gfxdave99 Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d175/AndersonAndrew/subiebmw.gif Awesome but it needs a money shot! If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough. - Mario Andretti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tantal Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d175/AndersonAndrew/subiebmw.gif This is really funny, but anyone who really thinks subaru has anything on BMW is just fooling themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highlander Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 This is really funny, but anyone who really thinks subaru has anything on BMW is just fooling themselves. I disagree. $ for $ I think Subaru can hold its own with BMW. Does BMW offer more performance, more class, more style, more luxury? Yes to all, but they all come with a higher premium in purchase price and ownership costs. I happen to like many BMWs (M3, M roadster, M5, 540i, 530i, M1, M6, etc.), but they are all twice the cost of the subaru. If Subaru could produce the same level of car in every way, it too would cost that much. However, the 318/325/328/330s do not offer enough of a difference for me to see where they are a value in anything except bragging rights for throwing BMW keys on the bar. My limited mods have given me performance in excess of a 330i in everything except maybe braking and handling. Yet I'm nowhere near the cost of a 330i or a 330ix. My phrase of "BM Who" started in the late 80's when the Frat Pack at college snubbed many who didn't aspire to drive a BMW, when they were driving mere 318s and 320i's which couldn't hold their own against a Honda. My car at the time was a modded 1st gen RX-7. One of my favorite stories about the RX-7 was that Mazda saw that Porsche was getting outrageous prices for the lack-luster 924. Mazda said we can build a better performer for 1/3 the price and went on to prove it. Again, don't get me wrong. BMW makes some great cars, but every car they make is not great. Vir Est Fatum Ut Perficio Concepta Suus Progenies. - Man is destined to fulfill the capacity of his lineage (i.e. Darwinism) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 Well I'm not a Subaru zealot, I'll go to whomever has a premier drivers car that I don't mind spending a long duration of time in. My GT was fairly comfortable for a decent trip, the Impreza STI I hated for more than an hour. Each had their ups of course, one isn't performance oriented enough, the other isn't quite comfortable for trips and since I'm looking for a good touring car, the 335i sedan is dead-on in my crosshairs. If Subaru can't provide more from the Legacy package, even the '07 Spec B isn't enough, then BMW is looking like a good alternative as well as a few others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highlander Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 Good solid points. My Volvo 740se is much more comfortable on long trips (and the modded turbo 4cyl really cooks too). My LGT is plenty comfortable for say 2 hour trips regularly. 5 hours if I have 8-10 hours rest before I get back in it. I think seating position is something Subaru could improve. Overall the ergonomics of the whole Subaru line is for the smaller frame individual. Larger frame persons (like me) can become cramped for space on long trips. I would love to see a true midsized subie (closer to a 5 series) with a turbo H-6 in it. That's where Subaru is lacking. Marketing the Legacy, Outback, and B9 against the larger sedans/wagons/suvs is short-sighted IMHO. It is overdue to expand the line into a slightly larger wheelbase. They will never make the Suburban / Hummer crowd, but the Explorer / Trailblazer / X-5 is attainable. Vir Est Fatum Ut Perficio Concepta Suus Progenies. - Man is destined to fulfill the capacity of his lineage (i.e. Darwinism) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tantal Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 Go ahead and disagree. If you remove the phrase "for the money" you simply have nothing to stand on. I love my car, and I DO NOT like the current bmws with the farkhead bangle styling, and I think the previous generation bmws handle better, but even the current bmws are significantly better cars. You state my case below. Obviously I own a GT an not a 3xx touring, but the GT is not as good a drivers car. I really need to upgrade my suspension, and maybe then it will be close to as good, but the front heavy weight distribution is not in the GT's favor. It's not as good a drivers tool as either the 3 or the 5 series. I never said every car they make is great, and don't get me started on their truck crap. However, even the 3 series touring is a better drivers car than the GT, just not as powerful. If you are a dragstrip, pony car kind of guy then there's no arguing with you (not that I'm arguing), but except for the excellent power advantage of the GT over the 3, it's just not much of a contest. If it were, the Legacy 2.5i would be favorably compared with the 325. It isn't. I disagree. $ for $ I think Subaru can hold its own with BMW. Does BMW offer more performance, more class, more style, more luxury? Yes to all, but they all come with a higher premium in purchase price and ownership costs. I happen to like many BMWs (M3, M roadster, M5, 540i, 530i, M1, M6, etc.), but they are all twice the cost of the subaru. If Subaru could produce the same level of car in every way, it too would cost that much. However, the 318/325/328/330s do not offer enough of a difference for me to see where they are a value in anything except bragging rights for throwing BMW keys on the bar. My limited mods have given me performance in excess of a 330i in everything except maybe braking and handling. Yet I'm nowhere near the cost of a 330i or a 330ix. My phrase of "BM Who" started in the late 80's when the Frat Pack at college snubbed many who didn't aspire to drive a BMW, when they were driving mere 318s and 320i's which couldn't hold their own against a Honda. My car at the time was a modded 1st gen RX-7. One of my favorite stories about the RX-7 was that Mazda saw that Porsche was getting outrageous prices for the lack-luster 924. Mazda said we can build a better performer for 1/3 the price and went on to prove it. Again, don't get me wrong. BMW makes some great cars, but every car they make is not great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codean Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 I work on BMW's for a living however I just bought a 07 spec B. If I could of afforded a 335 I would of got one... but for the options I wanted it would of ended up being 20K more then the spec B. Also, power output of the N54 (335 engine) will be limited by what the stock injectors will flow as I don't forsee anyone making aftermarket direct injection piezoelectric high pressure injectors. BMW's are great cars, Being around these cars day in and day out you forget how other manufactures skimp on quality and fit/finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 The E46 330i with ZHP performance pack looks like quite a nice car, and I'd be hard pressed to get a current Spec B over an '05 version of the BMW. With the Spec B weighing in at 200lbs more, the BMW a couple less ponies but a near perfect 50:50 balance, and a fit and finish and look of a car like this, it's pretty hard to compare for the same price, even though one is 2 years older and a good example may have 15 or 20k miles... http://homepage.mac.com/futureofx/.Pictures/CARS/BMW/05_330i_A.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/futureofx/.Pictures/CARS/BMW/05_330i_B.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/futureofx/.Pictures/CARS/BMW/05_330i_C.jpg Sure one might list mod potential as another area, but with a car that is very well sorted already, other than maybe wishing for a few more ponies, it's a pretty damn capable car. Another possibility is if Acura puts the 2.3 turbo engine and SH-AWD in the next TSX due for MY2008. And if it might look something like this nice concept photo... http://homepage.mac.com/futureofx/.Pictures/CARS/ACURA/2008TSXCONCEPT.jpg I guess what I'm getting at is there are decent alternatives and Subaru really needs something to stand out for those of us looking for refined performance in an AWD or RWD platform. Now granted, I really like the Legacy platform, I just want the performance in the same ballpark as the Impreza STI, but without having to lose the niceties that make a Legacy a Legacy. Look here once again... http://homepage.mac.com/futureofx/.Pictures/CARS/Lineup.jpg I've had both a 2.5GT and WRX STI, neither was quite enough car for me, the Impreza STI lacked the quality and the 2.5GT lacked the performance. There's just a slight void in the product line-up if you ask me. And on the topic of making Subaru's a better handling car, I think that won't happen until they adopt a new strategy, and that would be to move the front axle forward, way forward, I'm talking about placing the front diff at the front of the crank case, not the back, and running the output shaft to the ring and pinion gear through a low-depth dry-sump pan allowing them to also lower the engine, in hopes of gaining a much more neutral CG and weigh bias as well as hopefully making plumbing easier around the engine bay for things like exhaust manifolds and such. I don't see them changing their strategy all-together anytime soon, so we'll just have to keep that engine packed way out in front of the car and deal with handling as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highlander Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 I sure do enjoy a good debate. Great points by all. I'll admit I drove a well equipped 540i Sports edition the other day (2003 model). Still more than a new Spec.B, but very nice value. Vir Est Fatum Ut Perficio Concepta Suus Progenies. - Man is destined to fulfill the capacity of his lineage (i.e. Darwinism) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tantal Posted October 15, 2006 Share Posted October 15, 2006 Yeah, the only reason I have a GT rather than an 04 528 touring is price and power. Even if they were the same price (new), with the power deficit, I would so take the 5 series, without thinking about it. at all. And I'd spend the next ten years bitching about how much my insurance and maintenance costs are more than the subaru. But I would still take the 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psmwrx Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 ^^ I'd take a GT over a 528 any day because of price, and the boxer engine. Back to the original post, the only thing that'll make me reconsider a Subaru is if the Impreza stops being made in Japan. I know the fit and finish isn't great on the Impreza, very similar build quality to Legacy models made over here. Production plant workmanship isn't the reason, the out-sourcing of parts to North American companies for things like brake rotors, etc., is enough to make me rethink it. That's just my opinion though. Things like options don't bother me much as I realize smaller car companies can't offer wide ranges of models while fighting to keep the price relatively competitive. I personally think the latest generation of Legacy is the best value for money in the industry today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tantal Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 ^^ I'd take a GT over a 528 any day because of price, and the boxer engine. snip. I said if there were no difference in price Id take the 528 even with the power disadvantage. It is that much better a car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLA GT Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 I have a like/ not happy thing going on with my Legacy GT. I usually have a German car in my garage. Lately it's VW's, which depending on model, can easily take on a BMW in several categories, especially fit, finish, features, material quality, performance, etc.. I have a fully loaded 06 Jetta diesel with factory navigation that I like a lot better than a loaded 325 with navigation. The interior design, layout, quality and room is far superior to the BMW. I've owned 3 Three Series BMW's and one X5. My Legacy GT wagon replaced a Passat wagon - long story short I wish I still had the old Passat - I can't ever get comfortable in the Legacy and the material quality and especially the total lack of features that are standard in the most basic VW Rabbit have got me looking forward to getting rid of the Legacy - my first and last Japanese car. At this point I don't see myself in a BMW ever again either. One thing I have to disagree with is the maintenance costs of keeping a BMW on the road. I've put 150,000 miles on my 3 series and don't think maintaining a BMW is much different than any other car. Plus when they are new the first 50k miles all maintenance is included. I'd get my oil changed more than the factory recommends so I paid for a few oil changes during that 50k period - and went on to put another 100k miles on them after that with no major issues or significant costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highlander Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 And on the topic of making Subaru's a better handling car, I think that won't happen until they adopt a new strategy, and that would be to move the front axle forward, way forward, I'm talking about placing the front diff at the front of the crank case, not the back, and running the output shaft to the ring and pinion gear through a low-depth dry-sump pan allowing them to also lower the engine.... I think this has merit, but would have to be done so as not to push the motor rearward much or you end up with the old Cobra front leg room issue with the bellhousing sitting where your right foot wants to be. We now return you to your original topic. Vir Est Fatum Ut Perficio Concepta Suus Progenies. - Man is destined to fulfill the capacity of his lineage (i.e. Darwinism) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdw Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 This is my first Subaru. When I bought this car (05 LGT), I really wanted an AWD wagon that was quick, handled well and had a manual trans. Given those criteria, there were only a few other cars that qualified with a Volvo V50 being closest price wice. I'll have my car for another 4 or 5 years but if it meets an unfortunate demise, I'm not sure what I'd replace it with. Prices on the V70R are really good now but I'm not sure I trust a Volvo. Audis and Beemers are too much $. I'd consider a Spec B sedan and with fold down rear seats at least it's more useful than the 06. If they made a Spec B (or better yet, STI) wagon, I wouldn't even shop around, I'd go straight to the Subaru dealer. I understand why some models are never available with a manual but to offer it for a year and then stop seems really, really stupid especially when the part is readily available. Subaru has a real opportunity to be a poor man's BMW. Just offer manual transmissions and STI versions across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntadime Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 I can't believe I did it too. Should have been "no." I own 2, an 05 Impreza for my daughter and an o\an 5 LGT for me. The Impreza was an example of loving something that is also good for you. When we went car shopping, I couldn't believe she fell in love with a car that was safe, efficient and I could afford. The LGT was a left over. The comparison with BMW and Audi doesn't hold for me since the $23000 I spent is in a different league then the $40,000 a new 330xi would have cost. And my brother has an Audi wagon, new. Every once in a while he actually gets to drive it, usually back and forth to the dealer for repairs. I did the "car with a personality" thing twice. 1980 Fiat 2000 and 1985 Alfa Romeo Spider. Never again. Too much work, too much money spent. The LGT is a pefect compromise. I like it so much, I'm having a moonroof put in. The only thing that was mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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