Vimy101 Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Becuase the intake should have nothing to do with the problem I am seeing. We first thought is was an engine management issue... so that was the first step. Now that we know it is not that, we will start stepping backwards. If you dont know, K&N is a good tunable intake for the LGT. TDC, the company that tunes them, has tuned these intakes and never seen an issue like this with the install. Subaru did a good job, you are right. But this should not be happening. I have run other intakes on my car with no problems. I am familiar with all sorts of AM miracle products. We used to have many discussions about them on the NICO site. The consensus was that highly trained engineers would not leave easy (and cheap) performance gains lying on the table. We had some very highly qualified people posting complete with dyno results and graphs, etc. The only time AM products - K&N included - ever produced better results was in extremely narrow rpm bands under certain conditions but the gains were marginal at best (5hp) and more than offset by overall engine performance losses and long term reliability concerns. At the very least, you could revert to the OEM intake set up to verify that the problem definitely lies with the intake or not. You have a CAI for your K&N, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted August 11, 2006 Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 I am familiar with all sorts of AM miracle products. We used to have many discussions about them on the NICO site. The consensus was that highly trained engineers would not leave easy (and cheap) performance gains lying on the table. We had some very highly qualified people posting complete with dyno results and graphs, etc. The only time AM products - K&N included - ever produced better results was in extremely narrow rpm bands under certain conditions but the gains were marginal at best (5hp) and more than offset by overall engine performance losses and long term reliability concerns. At the very least, you could revert to the OEM intake set up to verify that the problem definitely lies with the intake or not. You have a CAI for your K&N, right? I am going to swap intakes for sure... trust me. I have the K&N Typhoon which is a short intake with heatshield. Comes with everything. I know there are no power gains.... I did it for sound and looks. I like to hear my stock BPV... that is mostly why I got it. It is actually not that loud under woot... its when I tap the gas on the highway and it sucks air like none other. No flamming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REM87O Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 The consensus was that highly trained engineers would not leave easy (and cheap) performance gains lying on the table.QUOTE] In your analysis, did you consider the role other departments play in the production and release of a vehicle? Marketing and finance have a role as well and I don't think they other considerations. Subaru has shown it will ax features to save a few pennies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 The consensus was that highly trained engineers would not leave easy (and cheap) performance gains lying on the table.QUOTE] In your analysis, did you consider the role other departments play in the production and release of a vehicle? Marketing and finance have a role as well and I don't think they other considerations. Subaru has shown it will ax features to save a few pennies. They might do that for an Ipod connection (dammit!) but not for easy and cheap efficiency gains that increase engine performance and therefore CAFE mpg considerations. It would be cheaper from a manufacturing standpoint to do away with the fancy OEM CAI system and slap on an intake right next to the motor. Of course, then you'd be sucking in hot air from around the engine and that is a major efficiency robber that would suck power potential from the engine and decrease mpg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REM87O Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 They might do that for an Ipod connection (dammit!) but not for easy and cheap efficiency gains that increase engine performance and therefore CAFE mpg considerations. It would be cheaper from a manufacturing standpoint to do away with the fancy OEM CAI system and slap on an intake right next to the motor. Of course, then you'd be sucking in hot air from around the engine and that is a major efficiency robber that would suck power potential from the engine and decrease mpg. I see what you are saying. Nobody wants an Ipod connection! lol I am doing the Jazzymt (sp) mod. It's lame we don't have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted August 11, 2006 Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 Back OT. I will slap the stock intake on and put my map back to TDC STG II and do a log. I will post those plots this weekend. Stay tuned!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005garnetGT Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 I can't believe TDC wont let you post logs, thats a strike against them in my book. yeah, so their stage 2 is a more aggressive boost map and WGDC map... its not like thats a secret.... (not to mention they cannot copyright those maps) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted August 11, 2006 Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 I can't believe TDC wont let you post logs, thats a strike against them in my book. yeah, so their stage 2 is a more aggressive boost map and WGDC map... its not like thats a secret.... (not to mention they cannot copyright those maps) eh dont worry about it. true, they cannot copyright the maps... so this is one way of trying to protect them I guess. I really know nothing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTTuner Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Just my 2 cents....hopefully it may save you some work. Take the WG vacuum lines right out of the car. Make sure EVERY PIECE in there is stock, including tee fittings, and the infamous restrictor pill. The tee burned me in the ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDC Joe Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 We don't like posting our logs just for the simple reason that they are the results of our efforts and work. There are a lot of things that can go wrong with posting them. People don't know how to read them like a tuner and will give wrong advice and impressions of issues. They can and do tell a slight picture of how Jon tunes the cars and what targets he uses to achieve our results that another tuner could easily start to copy if they saw enough before and after logs. We aren't trying to be jerks at all. It is simply protection. We use logs to do our work. Although they don't tell a full story it is still better for us in general to leave the reading logs to us and not making them public. That is like trying to get a baker to list all the ingredients so their special meal that everyone LOVES. If he listed them then people could go dabble and steal the idea. Thanks all....nothing more nothing less. PM Me for all your Modification Needs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted August 11, 2006 Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 Just my 2 cents....hopefully it may save you some work. Take the WG vacuum lines right out of the car. Make sure EVERY PIECE in there is stock, including tee fittings, and the infamous restrictor pill. The tee burned me in the ass. Thanks. I will look at the lines, but remember I did not touch them. So if something came loose it was because they were bumped inadvertantly. If it was a boost leak I think my logs would be different... Jon agrees. If I had a boost leak my WGDC might actually go up to compensate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005garnetGT Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 the logs aren't posted, but the WGDC tables in excel are.... I'm actually kinda surprised that you run so much dutycycle! 85% at redline, WOW! my boost map looks pretty close to that though lol, 16.5psi tapering to 11.8 psi at redline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted August 12, 2006 Author Share Posted August 12, 2006 crap so I pitched my stock air filter. I went to Autozone but they don't have the right size. I just need something to test in the stock airbox. ***calling Trabbic to see if he has an air filter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted August 12, 2006 Author Share Posted August 12, 2006 Ok I put the stock air box in and stock air filter (thanks zip ties in place of 1 hose clamp). I loaded the TDC STG II base map - no realtimes. WGDC looks high - but it does not dip. Still getting low boost - but at least WGDC is looking like it did on my past runs where I hit the right boost. http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/5822/stockairboxwgboostat9.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted August 12, 2006 Author Share Posted August 12, 2006 bump. I have not gotten a response from anyone on this... I really dont know how to interpret these results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REM87O Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 Did TDC have anything for you? I am curious what they think it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted August 12, 2006 Author Share Posted August 12, 2006 Jon is plain confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRS Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 Jon is plain confused.That's not good since I'm experiencing the same problem. He sent me another real time map that resulted in a marginal increase in boost, but still nowhere near where it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005garnetGT Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 is your BCS dirty perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted August 13, 2006 Author Share Posted August 13, 2006 is your BCS dirty perhaps? How can I check this? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted August 13, 2006 Author Share Posted August 13, 2006 Ok, I re-inatlled the K&N intake and did not change the MAP. I got 90.2 WGDC flat the entire time... and a peak boost of 16.4. So same as the last plot I showed. This was right after I installed it, so no ECU learning (same thing I did with stock airbox). So there is no real difference in my logs between the stock intake and K&N on the TDC STG II map. Timing and KC about the same (for now). My Mass Air reading was 234 on the stock airbox, and 225 on the K&N typhoon. On the stock airbox my intake air temp went from 29 degress to 25 by redline. On the K&N it went from 25 degrees to 24 by redline. I did logs about the same time of day so outside temps should be close. My engine load on the stock air box was max of 2.75 at 4500 RPM, and on the K&N it was max of 2.69 at 3000 RPM. The numbers were not that different between 3k and 4.5k - so I would not think anything of the 1.5k difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted August 13, 2006 Author Share Posted August 13, 2006 Next I am going to load the TDC STG II + K&N intake base map and see how that effects my WGDC. See if it dips down again like it did last time. If it dips down... then I would think it is a tuning issue, since I can run a flat WGDC on other maps. I think 90.2 is really high.... but at least it is flat like my old logs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005garnetGT Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 90.2 IS really high. thats an absurd WGDC..... actually... someone was having this problem on a baja turbo over at openecu.org, let me find the thread openecu.org :: View topic - WGD% Will not go above 90 on Baja Turbo (DBW). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasopoliS Posted August 13, 2006 Author Share Posted August 13, 2006 I jumped in there and posted - thanks for the link. I wonder why on 1 map - I get 86% WGDC - then on the other it 'maxes' to 90.2%. The guy in the thread linked above is also getting 90.2 dead on - while he is trying to tell it elsewise. Some other parameter is causing my WGDC to jump up like this... I dont know what. Does anyone have logs from when they had a boost leak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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