Noobie Question - Desription and Cost of Stage 1 Mods?

[jzirkel]

I have found bits and pieces of the answer in different forums here, but I was hoping for a simple description of the costs and items involved in a Stage 1 mod for my '06 LGT SpecB. TIA,

 

John

[fweasel]

Stage 1 = Cobb Access Port = $675 or so.

[bradlgt21]

Cobb Accessport is $625. Comes with Maps for stage I and II. Stage II requires a highflow downpipe. You can also buy your AP (accessport) from certain vendors and get there maps logged on for a little more. There maps usually give you a little more HP and makes the car run a little smoother.

[itsme]

you just need the AP. That's around $645 or $700 from TDC with a pro-tune.

[Effin Ponderous]

Don't waste your time with an AP if it doesn't have a TDC Mapp. There is a huge difference in performance and the TDC mapp wins hands down. It costs you $150 if you buy it alone, or $55 if you buy it with the AP from TDC.

[Irrational Exuberance]

stage one is just a better utilization of a totaly stock setup. stage 2 is full turbo back (if i recall). after that it starts getting very expensive very quick. AP w/ bundled tdc map was by far the best money ive spent ina while

[sungsg4]

will it void the factory warranty?? if so, how could they check??

[Effin Ponderous]

The easiest way to explain it is this;

If your car had a problem and was towed in, the dealer would look for the problem and never know about it. If you told the dealer to loo for it, he could unless you do a step referred to as Un-Marrying the unit. Once you un-marry (un-install) it, it is virtually impossible for the dealer to find it.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong here gang.

[jzirkel]

will it void the factory warranty?? if so, how could they check??

One person I've been referred to is the "Performance Parts Director" at my local dealership. Seems unlikely that they would void the warranty.

 

Thanks for the info so far...

 

John

[TSiWRX]

What's "Stage I" and how much does it cost?

You'll have to *_define_* "Stage I," first. And this definition will differ based on the Vendor/tuner you approach.

For example, Cobb's definition of "Stage I" is distinctly different from, say, PDXTuning's or Vishnu's.

Although "Stage I" carries with it certain connotations of what aftermarket components are incorporated and what ECU-revision is taken, this is by no means entirely agreed-upon either through the Vendor/tuner marketplace nor even on various enthusiast Forums.

While it can *_typically_* be said that, *_ACCORDING TO COBB TUNING's OWN "STAGE" CONVENTION_*, "Stage I" is simply the incorporation of an ECU-reflash without the addition of any aftermarket hardware components, you should still exercise caution when you start pursuing various Vendors and tuners for their "Staged" modifications, and request a full-disclosure of what each "Stage" incorporates.

For a closer read at why a lot of us don't really like all this "Stage" talk all that much:

http://legacygt.com/forums/turbo-powertrains-2-0gt/1526-stage-1-stage-2-a.html?highlight=%22stage%22

 

 

[yellowdogLGT]

Tsi - I'm coming from a DSM background too... I saw your post and am in the same boat. Going from my 91 Tsi with Buschur and Extreme to my Sube is going to take some getting used to. The old conventional steps for our DSMs flowed in an organized manner and made mechanical sense, while the sube way seems to follow another logic. I could be wrong, but those are first impressions.

 

I remember tearing apart my entire intake, filing down any seams or metal lips, removing boost solenoids, putting in the high flow MAF, upper IC piping, exhaust work, upgrading to a 4-bolt rear-end etc. etc., but with the Legacy it's a simple ECU flash, turbo back and larger TMIC. Kinda dissappointed that it's not more tinker-friendly if that's the word, but then again it looks like a more complicated beast.

 

If anyone takes exception to this, feel free to shred me... I just got my LGT last week.

[Vimy101]

The engineers at SOA and other high performance OEMs have thought things through pretty thoroughly (alliteration intended). We are reaping the benefits of the CAFE standards instituted by Jimmy Carter now. The reduced vehicle mass and computer optimized engine management - and attitude control if so equipped - of todays high perfromance vehicles is, for lack of a better word, stupendous. Gone are the days of the backyard tinkerer finding a magic 10% hp gain from discovering some overlooked efficiency. We must all remember that the engineers who designed the LGT love cars too and are pretting effing good at it.

[TSiWRX]

^ Stupendous - I like that!

 

---

 

Brother DSMer yellowdog - No shredding, I totally agree.

 

I'm starting to get "sense" of the way that Scoobys are upgraded, too. There is a path, it's somewhat different from our DSMs, but once you get more in the groove, you'll also find that there is logic, too.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Gone are the days of the backyard tinkerer finding a magic 10% hp gain from discovering some overlooked efficiency. We must all remember that the engineers who designed the LGT love cars too and are pretting effing good at it.

 

You may be 90% right.

 

But you also seem to have blind faith that the engineers are performance oriented people, who have carte blanche to design whatever they might want to.

 

Keep in mind that Subaru probably has rules about NVH, fuel economy, exhaust noise levels, production restraints, and all sorts of other caveats that come with mass-production that aren't necessarily the most ideal for ultimate efficiency and performance. Not to mention CAFE, and federal emissions, and a whole host of bureaucratic red tape they have to deal with.

 

There is a reason that AccessPort is one of the most common aftermarket parts sold for the Legacy GT, at least by guaging the responses on this forum. Cobb and TDC maps are reputed to unlock some potential, and even maintain or improve fuel economy with more power. (= more efficiency)

 

methinks you put a little too much blind faith in the manufacturer being on the same page as we enthusiasts, where they may or may not be, and they certainly have more to think about than just efficiency and performance, to fulfill their design requirements.

[Vimy101]

You may be 90% right.

 

But you also seem to have blind faith that the engineers are performance oriented people, who have carte blanche to design whatever they might want to.

 

Keep in mind that Subaru probably has rules about NVH, fuel economy, exhaust noise levels, production restraints, and all sorts of other caveats that come with mass-production that aren't necessarily the most ideal for ultimate efficiency and performance. Not to mention CAFE, and federal emissions, and a whole host of bureaucratic red tape they have to deal with.

 

There is a reason that AccessPort is one of the most common aftermarket parts sold for the Legacy GT, at least by guaging the responses on this forum. Cobb and TDC maps are reputed to unlock some potential, and even maintain or improve fuel economy with more power. (= more efficiency)

 

methinks you put a little too much blind faith in the manufacturer being on the same page as we enthusiasts, where they may or may not be, and they certainly have more to think about than just efficiency and performance, to fulfill their design requirements.

 

The AP is simply a way of un-detuning. The guts remain the same. There are certainly some compromises that must be made when offering mass produced cars for sale to the general public but for the most part the engineers do a remarkable job. It's the accountants and actuaries who are the wet blankets. Risk management and cost control are their domains. I find it almost incredible that today's engineers can build a car that functions well in temperatures ranging from -40C to +40C. When setting up their race cars, tuners are factoring in perhaps a 5C temp. spread. Methinks not enough credit is given to the engineers.

 

BTW, I don't know if you are old enough to have experienced LA in the 70s. The smog was horrible. Nowadays, LA looks comparitively clear on most days. I think some take improvements like that for granted. The reason for the cheap fuel in the 90s was CAFE standards which reduced per capita consumption. Extra weight (and cost) associated with improved safety systems allows many to walk away from wrecks that otherwise might have killed or crippled them in days gone by. I take my hat off to the engineers.

[HansGT]

don't forget stage 1 suspension

 

tires, springs or sway bars....put the power where it needs to be...on the ground.

[yellowdogLGT]

Many DSM shops and web sites were able to give a 1-2-3 build-up that was essentially the same across the board... I wonder if that exists for the LGT? Step one usually was the free stuff you could do like remove silencers and any other restrictions to the intake, fuel or exhaust sides. Step 2 usually spent a few hundred bucks for guages and a new intake. 3 was new cat-back or turbo back, with a boost controller etc.

 

So if I understand correctly, the 2.5 LGT has a detuned STI engine? What mods did Sube make that we need to "undo" to get back to the STI setup? One issue the first gen DSM's had was axles breaking after about 275 - 300 HP (I snapped one racing on the street with crappy street tires) - how much HP can the LGT's handle before the axles need to be upgrades? Breaking your car from a lame street race is the worst (and expensive) feeling and I never want to experience that again.

[DukeTrout]

IWSS - I think Vimy is right about his assertion that the Subaru engineers are truly petrol heads. Don't hold up the USDM Legacy GT as the example. Look at the JDM cars. A 2.0 l engine that, stock-to-stock, blows our 2.5s away. Real sway bars made from stock thicker than a toothbrush. The orignial Spec.B. The Legacy STi. They're definitely enthusiasts.

 

yellowdog - The stage approach seems pretty linear to me. Without coming from a previous tuner background, the stage approach is straightforward - 1 = tune, 2 = free the turbo up to breathe and tune again, 3 = bigger turbo, and appropriate plumbing to use it safely (and tune), 4 = engine internals. By focussing the steps on power modifications, they become universal to not just drag racers, but also autocrossers, rallycrossers, and folks who just like to carve up twisty roads on the way to work in the morning.

 

And to answer your question about the axle, check this: http://legacygt.com/forums/pdxtuning/36249-1st-weak-link-drivetrain.html

http://legacygt.com/forums/pdxtuning/28929-sneak-peek-what-pdx.html

[SLegacy99]

Perhaps there should be a thread stickied describing the stages.

[TSiWRX]

The stage approach seems pretty linear to me. Without coming from a previous tuner background, the stage approach is straightforward - 1 = tune, 2 = free the turbo up to breathe and tune again, 3 = bigger turbo, and appropriate plumbing to use it safely (and tune), 4 = engine internals.

 

^ Unfortunately, although the progression is "linear," there currently exists no across-the-board agreement on the actual definition of each "Stage."

 

By convention - Cobb's that is - you're right on with your "Stage" descriptions.

 

However, once you start plugging other tuners and/or Vendors into the equation, this is no longer true.

 

As such, it becomes a thing of confusion for many newbies.

 

Perhaps there should be a thread stickied describing the stages.

 

^ We'd have to have a community-wide consensus of the absolute "definition" of each stage, first. And in order to do this, we'd also need for all of the various tuners/Vendors to agree to the same consensus-statement/convention.

[yellowdogLGT]

There is no doubt that "freeing up the turbo" is a desired process in your build-up, but what that entails is the $mil question. I can free up my turbo 20 different ways with varying degrees of complexity and cost, but I think if you ran it through a mathematetical regression analysis (not to get too geeky here) there would be only one or two solutions to our problem: how to get 1) most HP in the 2) most economical 3) safest and 4) legal way. I can throw a gutted cat with boost controller cranked to 18 psi and FMIC and get the same HP as a catted 3" turbo back with a 18G turbo at 13.5 psi, but what are the costs, will I get boost creep and can I pass emissions? All I am saying is that there may be concensus in principle how to do it, but the devil is in the details.

 

I read on PDX's site that the flash, up pipe and larger TMIC is the way to go for the first $1500. Would everyone else agree?

[HansGT]

There is no doubt that "freeing up the turbo" is a desired process in your build-up, but what that entails is the $mil question. I can free up my turbo 20 different ways with varying degrees of complexity and cost, but I think if you ran it through a mathematetical regression analysis (not to get too geeky here) there would be only one or two solutions to our problem: how to get 1) most HP in the 2) most economical 3) safest and 4) legal way. I can throw a gutted cat with boost controller cranked to 18 psi and FMIC and get the same HP as a catted 3" turbo back with a 18G turbo at 13.5 psi, but what are the costs, will I get boost creep and can I pass emissions? All I am saying is that there may be concensus in principle how to do it, but the devil is in the details.

 

I read on PDX's site that the flash, up pipe and larger TMIC is the way to go for the first $1500. Would everyone else agree?

 

You have big hold up in the stock up pipe yes, but also the first cat in the downpipe. You can free up a lot of torque by removing this cat by gutting or have better success with aftermarket DP's. Also, people are really liking the GT spec headers with up pipe.

 

Check out TDC's power packages.

 

http://www.tdctuning.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_22_131&osCsid=5250152d3fb2c5577b1cc909c98b613c

[subeast04]

Don't waste your time with an AP if it doesn't have a TDC Mapp. There is a huge difference in performance and the TDC mapp wins hands down. It costs you $150 if you buy it alone, or $55 if you buy it with the AP from TDC.

 

 

If I order the Cobb 2.0 AP from TDC ($695) does it come with the TDC maps? I only see an option for Cobb maps.

[08specBqsm]

you could also look into open source tuning which is cheaper. all you need is a cable depending on year a tactrix cable may be required and have someone email tune you like infamous1