IwannaSportSedan Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 I am feeling a little Verklempt... Talk Amongst yourselves.... I'll give you a topic... Evidently Subaru is attracting attention. Ford to take AWD lead from Subaru Paired with this: Ford Edge and Fusion to get SVT treatment Might Ford be coming after our beloved Subaru with a lineup of faux-wheel-drive vehicles in most of their market segments? One might think a logical combination of these two stories would result in an AWD Edge SVT, and a MazdaSpeed6-like SVT Fusion with a turbo or a V6, and AWD, with the added benefit of being marketed at tracks all over the country as Ford's NASCAR nameplate. I want a sport sedan, and I have owned fords, but I am pretty darn sure that my next sport sedan is going to have stars and not four letters in it's blue oval. Ford has a history of not making manual transmissions available with high-trim and larger-engined cars, Just as the Fusion is now... I see new fusions all over the place, and I never see Legacys. But does anyone honestly think that the Fusion can take on the value AWD Sport Sedan technical supremacy of the Legacy GT? On the other hand... Ford has brand awareness, for better or worse. This could take away some of Subaru's marketing niche, and put a little company even further behind. It would be hard for Subaru to compete with NASCAR audiences recognizing the Fusion, and not knowing the Legacy even exists... But if it does happen, and sells well, it may prove that there is a market out there for AWD sport sedans that Subaru either won't or maybe can't tap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt_ltd Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 competitions is always good This Space For Rent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panamajack Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Well they can still bring us the Euro Focus RS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Ford is basically tapping into Volvo. The new Focus shares the same platform as the Mazda 3, and Volvo S40. The euro Focus RS already has Volvo's engine. There were talks of getting the AWD package also, but plans for that got dropped. The Five Hundred is available with AWD because it uses the Volvo S80 platform which is also available with AWD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew.anderson Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 They are correct. IwannaSportSedans posts are long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFar Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Ford has a history of not making manual transmissions available with high-trim and larger-engined cars, Just as the Fusion is now Do you have any examples? I used to sell Ford and know that every car worth driving was offered with a manual. Mustang/Cobra, Focus SVT, Ford GT, all have manuals. The mustangs sucks, buts it manual nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iyalla Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Do you have any examples? I used to sell Ford and know that every car worth driving was offered with a manual. Mustang/Cobra, Focus SVT, Ford GT, all have manuals. The mustangs sucks, buts it manual nonetheless. Yeah that doesn't sound like Ford, it sounds like Mercedes USA he's describing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy BoB Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 As long as AWD is only an option on their cars they will never come close to taking subarus claim to AWD Leader. As for examples of fords that should have had a manual transmition I'm guess the Mercury Maurader. It was suppose to be a full size muscle car but with its automatic transmition it just wasn't going to really cut it. Plus if they really wanted to make it stand out they should have come out with the supercharged convertible version they toured the autoshows with a few years back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted May 23, 2006 Author Share Posted May 23, 2006 Well, Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan, and Lincoln LS V8 come to mind. SHO was mostly auto, but there were a very few VERY scarce manuals before the round body-style. Cougar probably as well, but I am not sure who actually wanted to buy a cougar. Mercury Marauder is another, but I can somewhat understand an automatic in that huge car. The mustang has always come with a manual, that is true. SVT focus... well, that is SVT, and a 3-door hatch... isn't it. The Ford GT... If that came with an automatic I would be appalled. But ford doesn't offer much so far in terms of performance excitement with more than two useable seats, and Mustang being that only alternative, and SVT focus barely counting. No offense to SVT Focus, or SVT Contour owners, but those almost seem more like appearance packages than hugely significant performers. Not bad for what they are, but they aren't exactly Cobras or Lightnings. But where are the performance sedans? Taurus SHO is long since gone, SVT contour I mentioned above. Lincoln could have had a hot LS, in the vein of the Jaguar S-type-R, with a manual trans option, rather than just a bodykit option. If Ford does an SVT Fusion with AWD and either the turbo 2.3 DFI engine, or a V6, like their new 3.5 liter that is coming out, it might be a technical step in the right direction.... but i personally think the Fusion is over-wrought. the chrome grille bars and the extra bling don't do it for me at all. the tail lights are gaudy. the C-pillar line is thick and not all that graceful, especially considering how good the Legacy looks. Plus it will probably be a Haldex coupler system, and mostly FWD biased. One can only hope they use the MS6's 6-speed manual. But as I said, even if they do, it will be hard for them to eclipse the technical aspects of the Legacy, or it's looks. I have a hard time beleiving they can turn the 500 into anything resembling sporty. Mercury, as a brand, used to be a mix of premium and sporty. Now it is languishing as a redundant down-market lincoln wannabe. The Milan looks slightly better than the Fusion, but it isn't likely to get SVT attention, and doesn't come with a manual trans with the V6 and premium trim. The Montego is trying and badly failing to be anything more than a 500. They are both too bland to even succeed at being ugly. the Lincoln LS is gone, without spawning a Mercury offshoot, and neither does Mercury get a Mustang variant, as they have in the past. They mostly sell mountaineers and mariners. SUVs. Whoopie. Too bad they are wasting their brand, and what history they do have. In terms of Subaru getting more competition, with NASCAR marketing for Ford, and their big "buy Ford and keep your money in the US..." (which is a crock!) push with more AWD vehicles, they may outsell Subaru on AWD vehicles, purely on volume... You know if that happens, the marketing will be that Ford would tout that it sells more AWD than anybody, including subaru. Technical specs be ignored, but some people will ignorantly think that means "better". This may not mean much for Subaru's techical superiority, but it could be a marketing problem, and potentially a big one for Subaru, a very small company in comparison, to tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psucaptainkickass Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 This depends on how you quantify "leader". If you say that Ford sells more AWD cars, well that is probably true, since they have a larger market share ("Fusions you see everywhere, LGT's you don't"). However, this isn't to say that Ford's tech. is better. I would much rather have our AWD system than some computer controlled hocus pocus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psucaptainkickass Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Mercury Marauder is another. I soooooo want one of these. All black outside, tinted windows, grill. I sat in a used one at the Mercury dealer, and DAMN, this is one comfortable car. Awesomely huge, and totally a super cruiser. Should I get some spare cash in the future, I might pick one up because they are super cheap, and getting cheaper. Drop in a few $$ in mods, and you have one badass vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted May 23, 2006 Author Share Posted May 23, 2006 This depends on how you quantify "leader". If you say that Ford sells more AWD cars, well that is probably true, since they have a larger market share ("Fusions you see everywhere, LGT's you don't"). However, this isn't to say that Ford's tech. is better. I would much rather have our AWD system than some computer controlled hocus pocus. You and I are on the same page. I am not going to buy a new ford, I am going to buy a new Subaru. But not everyone is as technically savvy as we are, and are more swayed by marketing. I agree Ford doesn't have the AWD equipment to compete with Subaru on a technical basis. But they may not have to. It doesn't matter how I quantify a "leader". It depends on how THEY do. Ford won't care if Subaru has better equipment, if Ford can say they sell more AWD cars, and can plant the incinuation that better selling cars must be somehow better cars period. If someone doesn't know Subaru, but has an F150, and looking for a family car, they may be inclined to believe it. In an aside... The Marauder you describe does sound cool. Some subtle big rims, a bit lower to the ground and blacked out... And a 390 hp '03-04 Cobra supercharged motor would do the trick. I wish one could build a Lincoln LS with with Jag S-type R supercharged 4.2 liter, and it's big Alcon brakes, t56 6-speed manual, lowered, and a few tasteful appearance mods... Modest sized V8 sport sedans seem pretty rare. New infinity M45 may be taking that mantle, though. The Caddy STS-V is also new in that market. An M3 sedan with a V8 is rumored to be coming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psucaptainkickass Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 You and I are on the same page. I am not going to buy a new ford, I am going to buy a new Subaru. But not everyone is as technically savvy as we are, and are more swayed by marketing. I agree Ford doesn't have the AWD equipment to compete with Subaru on a technical basis. But they may not have to. It doesn't matter how I quantify a "leader". It depends on how THEY do. Ford won't care if Subaru has better equipment, if Ford can say they sell more AWD cars, and can plant the incinuation that better selling cars must be somehow better cars period. If someone doesn't know Subaru, but has an F150, and looking for a family car, they may be inclined to believe it. In an aside... The Marauder you describe does sound cool. Some subtle big rims, a bit lower to the ground and blacked out... And a 390 hp '03-04 Cobra supercharged motor would do the trick. I wish one could build a Lincoln LS with with Jag S-type R supercharged 4.2 liter, and it's big Alcon brakes, t56 6-speed manual, lowered, and a few tasteful appearance mods... Modest sized V8 sport sedans seem pretty rare. New infinity M45 may be taking that mantle, though. The Caddy STS-V is also new in that market. An M3 sedan with a V8 is rumored to be coming... +1 400HP V8 M3 on the way...growl.... I don't know what it is about the Marauder that does it for me. I mean its just a crown vic, but for some reason it doesn't have the grandpa feel to it. Its kinda like those old school Impala SS's. The ones that had the same body style as the caprice, but with color matched parts. Maybe I am a sucker for the low riding boats .....with supercharged engines of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy BoB Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 I still don't believe ford is goign to sell more AWD cars than Subaru. Chrysler has had AWD as an option on alot of their cars for a few years but most people don't want to spend the extra money to get it. How many AWD magnums are out there really. Most would rather spend the money for the bigger engine than than on AWD. Same thing will probalby happen to fords. You'll see alot of them out there but only a small number will be AWD. As for the Maurader, I learned to drive on my fathers old Grand Marquis so I always had a soft spot for that model. Other than that if you spend the money on a few mods you have a pretty fast car that can fit your whole family in it or 5 very large people comfortably, or the entire populaton of a small island nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psucaptainkickass Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 or the entire populaton of a small island nation. :lol::lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Well, Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan, and Lincoln LS V8 come to mind. SHO was mostly auto, but there were a very few VERY scarce manuals before the round body-style. Cougar probably as well, but I am not sure who actually wanted to buy a cougar. Mercury Marauder is another, but I can somewhat understand an automatic in that huge car. The mustang has always come with a manual, that is true. SVT focus... well, that is SVT, and a 3-door hatch... isn't it. The Ford GT... If that came with an automatic I would be appalled. But ford doesn't offer much so far in terms of performance excitement with more than two useable seats, and Mustang being that only alternative, and SVT focus barely counting. No offense to SVT Focus, or SVT Contour owners, but those almost seem more like appearance packages than hugely significant performers. Not bad for what they are, but they aren't exactly Cobras or Lightnings. But where are the performance sedans? Taurus SHO is long since gone, SVT contour I mentioned above. Lincoln could have had a hot LS, in the vein of the Jaguar S-type-R, with a manual trans option, rather than just a bodykit option. If Ford does an SVT Fusion with AWD and either the turbo 2.3 DFI engine, or a V6, like their new 3.5 liter that is coming out, it might be a technical step in the right direction.... but i personally think the Fusion is over-wrought. the chrome grille bars and the extra bling don't do it for me at all. the tail lights are gaudy. the C-pillar line is thick and not all that graceful, especially considering how good the Legacy looks. Plus it will probably be a Haldex coupler system, and mostly FWD biased. One can only hope they use the MS6's 6-speed manual. But as I said, even if they do, it will be hard for them to eclipse the technical aspects of the Legacy, or it's looks. I have a hard time beleiving they can turn the 500 into anything resembling sporty. Mercury, as a brand, used to be a mix of premium and sporty. Now it is languishing as a redundant down-market lincoln wannabe. The Milan looks slightly better than the Fusion, but it isn't likely to get SVT attention, and doesn't come with a manual trans with the V6 and premium trim. The Montego is trying and badly failing to be anything more than a 500. They are both too bland to even succeed at being ugly. the Lincoln LS is gone, without spawning a Mercury offshoot, and neither does Mercury get a Mustang variant, as they have in the past. They mostly sell mountaineers and mariners. SUVs. Whoopie. Too bad they are wasting their brand, and what history they do have. In terms of Subaru getting more competition, with NASCAR marketing for Ford, and their big "buy Ford and keep your money in the US..." (which is a crock!) push with more AWD vehicles, they may outsell Subaru on AWD vehicles, purely on volume... You know if that happens, the marketing will be that Ford would tout that it sells more AWD than anybody, including subaru. Technical specs be ignored, but some people will ignorantly think that means "better". This may not mean much for Subaru's techical superiority, but it could be a marketing problem, and potentially a big one for Subaru, a very small company in comparison, to tackle. ohhh n0es teh tread monstah I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanGT Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 There is AWD and there is.... AWD. Almost every auto-maker has AWD on their option lists. Audi and Subaru are no longer unique in having AWD... I believe the biggest difference with Audi and Subaru is that AWD is engineered into their cars right from the start and not as an after-thought just for the marketers to tout in the brochures. Audi and Subaru designed AWD as an added performance edge to their cars. With the advent of advance electronics and more compact differentials, other automakers are able to add-on AWD. If you were to take a look at the AWD versions of the BMW 3-series and Volvo's, you will see that the lowered sports suspension is not offered on those models. The 3 series and the Volvo S60 have at least 2 extra inches of clearance gap between the fender and the wheels. Auto-rags reviews of the 3-series AWD have stated the sportiness of the 3-series handling have been dialed out in the AWD versions. The Audi and Subaru enthusiasts know that the AWD technology is superior to the other tack-on versions. . . I have enough drama for now..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccorry Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 I still say that Subaru's AWD platform is the BEST design out there... it is more robust and reliable than any other. Kucf Ford! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franklin Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 competitions is always good +1 Im a beliver in competition. Keeps you on your toes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWD_Rules3830 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Chrysler has had AWD as an option on alot of their cars for a few years but most people don't want to spend the extra money to get it. How many AWD magnums are out there really. Most would rather spend the money for the bigger engine than than on AWD. Same thing will probalby happen to fords. You'll see alot of them out there but only a small number will be AWD. Thats true, i talked to alot of people in nebraks and alot of people dont have a 4WD or AWD because they dont want to spend an extra 4 grand on something they are going to use ... what ... 5 times a year. As a former ford driver (explorer, 96) and current (expedition, 03) allow to review fords 4 wheel and AWD systems ... THEY SUCK !!! Half they time they never want to engage, they are still useing old fashion diffs that lock up as soo as the wheel starts spining ... but sometimes they decided not to lock up, they kinda have a mind of their own. Basically my last car, the Explorer, it didnt have a tough time getting around in winter, but god damn it did complain everytime i use 4WD. I liked the explorer in the winter only because it was RWD based and i could get the back end to pop out (there is were i learned how to deal with oversteer quiet well). But you couldnt get traction on a dime, you and to wait for the car to decide it was all nice and ready, really. The expedition isnt much better, if not worse. Of course these arnt AWD systems, but they speak volumes about how behind and antiquated Fords drive systems are. I love my car ... basically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted May 24, 2006 Author Share Posted May 24, 2006 I am looking forward to an AWD car. My 4WD truck is about the same as you describe. 2000 Ranger, with the dial on the dash... it engages... slowly. then if you have to turn the truck, it groans and complains, against the center transfer case. AWD is going to be soooo much nicer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobE Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 They are correct. IwannaSportSedans posts are long. http://newenglandsubarus.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Pimp Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Ford = Yawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulvarizer Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 As a former ford driver (explorer, 96) and current (expedition, 03) allow to review fords 4 wheel and AWD systems ... THEY SUCK !!! Half they time they never want to engage, they are still useing old fashion diffs that lock up as soo as the wheel starts spining ... but sometimes they decided not to lock up, they kinda have a mind of their own. Basically my last car, the Explorer, it didnt have a tough time getting around in winter, but god damn it did complain everytime i use 4WD. I liked the explorer in the winter only because it was RWD based and i could get the back end to pop out (there is were i learned how to deal with oversteer quiet well). But you couldnt get traction on a dime, you and to wait for the car to decide it was all nice and ready, really. The expedition isnt much better, if not worse. These are not the systems that will make it into any ford sedan. The newer gen Haldex is quite capable of handling both winter and the track. Any future Ford sedan will likely have the same system found on the MS6, while not as good as the Suby systems they are quite functional and do have some advantages, Fuel consuption... Let the flamming begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deimos Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Ford fusion with the mustang v8 and awd? hmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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