scooby vs. saab

[LegGT5Spd]

What color/options did you get?

 

Atlantic Blue GT Limited. No optional equipment at all.

 

Climate control question: The Saab had dual zone climate control also but I could have the passenger side automatically follow whatever temp I set the drivers side to. Does the Subaru have such a feature?

 

Also, the Saab's temp control was awesome. In three years I don't think I ever changed the temp from 69. It always did a great job of keeping the car comfortable. The Legacy seems to be all over the place when I set it to auto. Has anyone else found the auto climate control to be inaccurate?

 

I've put a bit over 600 miles on this week and the trip computer says I'm averaging 17.5 MPG. The worst I ever got in the Saab was low 20's. Does the mileage get better as the engine gets broken in because this is pretty bad for a 4 cylinder car?

[IwannaSportSedan]

When Subaru competes with this, I'll be impressed. But then again, this is completely out of left feild from Saab. Biodeisel engine, lots of power, and AWD, and projected information systems in a canopy. Jets indeed.

 

http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/aero-x_concept/profile_open.jpg

 

Where is the genuine "new-think" in the rest of the industry? More than just improved voice-nav... Something that inherently improves DRIVING?

 

A division of Saab might be linked to aircraft, such as the Viggen, but Subaru is descendant from Nakajima Aircraft that was among the first to develop jet propulsion, barely months away from production at the end of WWII, barely behind in implementation, and probably more advanced in design than the German Messerschmidt...

 

Gordon Murray in a recent editiorial column was complaining of the mundane nature of the cars at the Geneva Auto Show, and that all the cars were derivative and heavier than their own predecessors... and lamented the absence of the Mitsubishi i concept, which has some new packaging and primary system ingenuity... I agree with his premise... The whole "everything old is new again" thing is not bad, but I want something NEW that is new....

 

Where is the HUD technologies on most cars? Configurable instrumentation? Light weight, proper handling cars (affordable, BTW) turbo diesels and gas engines with direct injection... you know, the good stuff?

 

The normal FWD sedan/wagon Saab stuff... meh. They supposedly are developing a TT-esque coupe based on the design language of the above pictured Aero X concept... if it is AWD, that might be interesting.

 

EVERYBODY is coming up with coupes again... Even cadillac is supposedly getting in the game with the next gen CTS model, rumored to be getting a coupe version. WHERE IS SUBARU ON THIS? Hopefully not just a B5-induced Impreza. I am still holding to my 5-door Legacy-based GT car, SVX-inspired resurrection idea.

[matt]

Matt, the steering response can be (cheaply) improved in three ways - 225/45/17 summer tires (or any good HP A/S), a rear sway bar, and/or by swapping out the springs with STI pinks. For ~ $2500 it's a great investment, bringing the car in the league of BMW and Audi wagons, to the extent those two are in the same league as each other =0.

 

I wasn't thinking of BMWs or Audis My previous cars were a Saturn and a Mitsubishi, and they both had more steering feel than any BMW or Audi I've driven (though I've only driven two of each). Yes you read right - I'm saying my *Saturn*, a GM car, had more steering feel than any other car I've driven. It didn't have power steering, which likely helped. And no, I'm not confusing effort for feel, as the LGT has higher effort steering than my Mitsubishi did yet noticabley less feedback.

 

anyway, you'll see a massive improvement in steering feel simply by adding higher performance rubber. In fact you might be surprised by the improvement. Whens the last time you drove an Audi or BMW with some low performance rubber in the league of the RE-92? I'll telll you - never ! LOL

IIRC at least one each of the Audis and BMWs I drove had fairly uninspiring allseasons. The other Audi definately had summer tires though; I'm not sure about the other BMW. But again, my memory says their steering didn't give me significantly more feedback than the LGT's does (not enough to notice on my single drives of each). Hell, the older Audi (without the relatively good tires) was significantly worse in that regard (any just about every other for that matter).

 

But more to the point, the LGT has better rubber than either my Saturn or Mitsubishi did. The Saturn had whatever cheap allseasons my parents last put on it before they gave it to me, which were pretty much bald too by the time I got the car. Oh, not to mention they were of course sized for the rims, which were 13"-14" (I forgot exactly, but visually they were clearly < 15") steelies, and thinner than an anorexic celebrity.

 

The Mitsubishi actually came with RE92s too, but for whatever reason the ones on my LGT grip significantly better, even in the wet (yes, we're talking about a 2WD car vs an AWD one, but I'm not talking about acceleration). The LGT's wheels/tires are a little larger but the extra grip seems excessive for the slight extra size, and normal logic says larger wheels are worse in the wet. Of course better grip doesn't necessarily mean better feedback (at least AFAIK), but I doubt that they give significantly *less* feedback than the ones on the Ralliart.

 

All that said I'm sure the right tires would give my LGT noticabley more feedback, steering and otherwise. But the same could be said for all the cars I just compared it with.

[gosubaru]

I was looking the Saab 9-3 Aero before I got my GT Limited. IMO, it's a nice car with decent power & great handling. However, user reviews scared me away from it as almost any electrical parts that you can think of have problems even in just new months.

[matt]

Oops, I forgot to reply about the pinks. The previous owner of my wagon actually had pinks on it, and I test drove it with them on. I didn't really push the car on the rest drive but they clearly helped the handling a bunch and didn't make the ride at all harsh by my standards. Only problem was they simply lowered the car too much for me. I will firm up the suspension one of these days, but I really don't want to sacrafice curb and snow clearance in the process.

[tantal]

I wasn't thinking of BMWs or Audis My previous cars were a Saturn and a Mitsubishi, and they both had more steering feel than any BMW or Audi I've driven (though I've only driven two of each).

 

snip

 

 

I'm sorry but I don't believe this is possible - have we driven the same cars? I used to have an '89 325 coupe that had better steering feel than any saturn or mitsu I've ever driven - I once shopped an eclipse turbo awd and that car does not compare to any of the cars were'r discussing, including the stock LGT. The feedback is what you want to focus on, but still, no way - my A4 has better feel than the saturns do. I don't mean to condescend, but you must be confusing "steering feel" with something else. It just is not right what you say.

 

The difference between the RE92s you've ridden on is mostly due to the profile - 45 profile tires will be much stiffer and have much quicker turn in than a 55 or 60 profile tire.

[Anibalz]

The thing with the Saab is the Electronic countermeasures (TC, ESC, etc) limit the engine output to keep the car stable and wheels from spinning excessively. 258lb-ft of torque can create a lot of wheel spin in a FWD car, specially when they're available at 2000rpm. When I test drove it I noticed the car a bit more restrained in 1st and 2nd, while in 3rd gear the car went from 35 to 75mph in no time. They have the PPC(equivalent to AP) which I assume can tweak that issue for better response. Overall I like both cars a lot. My LGT doesn't feel laggy but maybe that's just me. Let's see how it compares when I get TDC AP...

 

 

From what I've read the 9-3's new turbo v6 is somewhat unresponsive, but if the throttle is responsive then overall it's probably not much if any worse than the LGT's relatively responsive engine but laggy throttle.

[matt]

I'm sorry but I don't believe this is possible - have we driven the same cars? I used to have an '89 325 coupe that had better steering feel than any saturn or mitsu I've ever driven - I once shopped an eclipse turbo awd and that car does not compare to any of the cars were'r discussing, including the stock LGT. The feedback is what you want to focus on, but still, no way - my A4 has better feel than the saturns do. I don't mean to condescend, but you must be confusing "steering feel" with something else. It just is not right what you say.

I think you'd be suprised. Have you driven a completely base 1st gen Saturn SL (1993 in my case), without power steering? Not all of the feedback is *good* feedback by most folks' standards (i.e. plenty of kickback over bumps etc), but there was tons of feedback overall, including lots of good mixed in with the bad. Most of the time all it could really say with those bald skinny tires was "I have no grip!," but it sure said that loud and clear I don't doubt that the Saturns you've driven had steering nothing like it; I've certainly never driven anything else from GM that had what I'd call good steering feel.

 

My Mitsubishi was a 2004 Lancer Ralliart. Its steering was initially too light for my taste coming from not having power steering, but I grew to appreciate the relative lightness (we're not talking Camry light, just lighter than, say, the LGT) and it definately had more steering feel than your average Mitsubishi. Probably more than any other current-generation Mitsubishi save the Evo (which I haven't driven). It certainly felt nothing like a base Lancer, steering or otherwise.

 

The BMWs I've driven were a 1986 (IIRC - something around then for sure) 635CSi and a 1999 323i. Unfortunately the 323i drive was cut short, but I didn't notice its steering being particularly better or worse than the Ralliarts during my very brief drive. It was while I was traveling and had a Daewoo rental though, so of course it felt infinitely better than that , but I didn't get to compare it back-to-back with my Ralliart.

 

The 635 had recently developed a dead spot on center. Its steering was nicely firm otherwise and I don't remember finding it lacking in feedback, but nor did it stand out.

 

The Audis were a 1996 A4 1.8T AWD and a 2006 2.0T AWD. I made my drive of the 1996 one *very* brief when I felt how boring and unsporting the car was (very slow, floppy long throw shifter, very long clutch throw with engagement near the top of the travel, too heavy and felt its weight/too heavy to feel tossible esp with the AWD).

 

The 2006 was, of course, a far superior car. The 2.0T easily made up for the older 1.8T's lack of "go" (even the later high HP ones) and then some. Definately not as fast as the LGT, but its near lack of turbo lag, wide powerband, and decent torque made it if anything better for around-town driving and it never felt weak even when I pushed it briefly (my drive was mostly in traffic, unfortunately). Back on topic to the steering, it felt better that old 1996's - if anything I think the 2006 did have slightly more feedback than the LGT. It had the "S-line" package which, among other things, included summer tires. My guess its steering feedback and the LGT's would be very evenly matched given similar tires. To be clear they'd still have distinctive overall steering feels, both of which I generally like, but I suspect the level of feedback from the road within the overall feel would be very, very close. I also drove it a few days apart from any LGT drives.

 

The difference between the RE92s you've ridden on is mostly due to the profile - 45 profile tires will be much stiffer and have much quicker turn in than a 55 or 60 profile tire.

That could be it - the Ralliart's were 50 profile.

[tantal]

Matt - I've driven most of the cars you mention, and let's just say that we disagree, and leave it at that. There is no US market 96 1.8 A4.

[matt]

Hrmm, nope, there sure wasn't a 96 A4 1.8T. The one I drove must've been slightly newer. It was of that generation with the older-style interior.

 

I'm happy to agree to disagree, but now I'm curious if you have driven a 1st gen Saturn w/o power steering or a Lancer Ralliart. You don't exactly sound like someone who'd even bother taking any Saturn for a spin, let alone buying one, and Ralliarts aren't very common or well-known.

 

Of course I'm not exactly a typical Saturn buyer either, but then nor did I buy my Saturn (In hindsight it was a good first car and I can see why my parents picked it over the like-priced competition at the time, but that's OT.)

[BlackMagicGT]

but they are "bjorn*" from jets, baby**

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*disclaimer #1

(bjorn shoes have no affiliation with saab, general motors, or swedish laborers, they are now made in china with slave laborers with all profits going to the shareholders in sweden.

 

**disclaimer #2

(saab nor general motors have any affiliation with jets whatsoever)

 

haha yeah i like saab's new marketing scheme, trying to fool stupid consumers into believing, "hey well apparently they used to make jets, so they must be good at making cars"... HA!! i'm in the aviation industry, and in all the different types of aircraft i've had to study, never once have i come across this so-called "jet" that saab made. they do, however make a shitty turboprop that most of you have probably flown on, the saab 340. i did an internship with american airlines a couple years ago and flew jumpseat on this piece. granted, most turboprops are fairly loud, but the saab 340 just blows you away at how uncomfortable flying can be. additionally, it basically looks like any other regional aircraft. what?? saab using other companies' designs??? no way, that's so unlike them.... point being, if they think the fact that their subsidiary makes a sad excuse for a plane can be used as a selling mechanism for their cars, they have another thing coming. and GM is doing most of the work, so the slogan is pretty much just completely inaccurate.

 

here are some of saab's other ad campaign slogans: "Welcome to the State of Independence" "Saab. Move your mind" and "Find Your Own Road"... doesnt this seem hypocritical given that saab is owned by GM and their cars are based on other companies' platforms? hey saab, maybe you should "find your own road".

 

well anyway, i apologize to those who are loyal to the saab name and are offended by this, but it's just what i think. i think the 9-2x is a good-looking car, but honestly, i believe there are tons of other cars for that price that i would rather have than just a fancier wrx. so in the end (as if you couldnt already tell)....subie ftw

[jj808]

*disclaimer #1

(bjorn shoes have no affiliation with saab, general motors, or swedish laborers, they are now made in china with slave laborers with all profits going to the shareholders in sweden.

**disclaimer #2

(saab nor general motors have any affiliation with jets whatsoever)

Might want to remove the SAAB part of the 2nd disclaimer.

 

Saab JAS 39 Gripen

[ebpda9]

having just about any model on the road i can say that i like the newer saabs (they don't feel like GM's in anyway), and i think they are entertaining cars, but not as entertaining as my NA legacy.

[OrangeTea]

Do not buy Saab. It's got one of the worst relaibilty rating up there with Audi. My friend actually had to sue SAAB to have them take back her SAAB. She won.

 

A friend of a friend was in a car accident in SAAB and got burnt real bad. The fuel shut off didn't work and the frigging thing caught fire.

[Anibalz]

Saab has been making Jets since the 1940's...Jet's like J29 Tunnan, J32 Lansen, J35 Drakken, JAS37 Vigggen and the JAS39 Gripen. And those are only the ones i can remember. You should study a bit more your aircrafts!

 

Also, the 9-2x(Subaru) and 9-7x(Chevy) were built for the American market. Only Saabs sold in Sweden are the 9-3 and the 9-5.

 

haha yeah i like saab's new marketing scheme, trying to fool stupid consumers into believing, "hey well apparently they used to make jets, so they must be good at making cars"... HA!! i'm in the aviation industry, and in all the different types of aircraft i've had to study, never once have i come across this so-called "jet" that saab made. they do, however make a shitty turboprop that most of you have probably flown on, the saab 340. i did an internship with american airlines a couple years ago and flew jumpseat on this piece. granted, most turboprops are fairly loud, but the saab 340 just blows you away at how uncomfortable flying can be. additionally, it basically looks like any other regional aircraft. what?? saab using other companies' designs??? no way, that's so unlike them.... point being, if they think the fact that their subsidiary makes a sad excuse for a plane can be used as a selling mechanism for their cars, they have another thing coming. and GM is doing most of the work, so the slogan is pretty much just completely inaccurate.

 

here are some of saab's other ad campaign slogans: "Welcome to the State of Independence" "Saab. Move your mind" and "Find Your Own Road"... doesnt this seem hypocritical given that saab is owned by GM and their cars are based on other companies' platforms? hey saab, maybe you should "find your own road".

 

well anyway, i apologize to those who are loyal to the saab name and are offended by this, but it's just what i think. i think the 9-2x is a good-looking car, but honestly, i believe there are tons of other cars for that price that i would rather have than just a fancier wrx. so in the end (as if you couldnt already tell)....subie ftw

[BlackMagicGT]

Saab has been making Jets since the 1940's...Jet's like J29 Tunnan, J32 Lansen, J35 Drakken, JAS37 Vigggen and the JAS39 Gripen. And those are only the ones i can remember. You should study a bit more your aircrafts!

yeah i guess i did know about the gripen, but most of the others, no. i didnt really clarify most of my aircraft knowledge is of civililan and commercial aircraft, and not many foreign fighters, which presumably would make my judgement prejudice...guess that's just my arrogance:lol:. still not a fan.

 

Anibalz +1, me 0

[Garandman]

Might want to remove the SAAB part of the 2nd disclaimer.

 

Saab JAS 39 Gripen

 

SAAB makes jets but Opel sure does not!

[Anibalz]

When I was young instead of collecting baseball or basketball cards, I collected aircraft info, pictures, drawings, models, etc...from all periods, classifications and countries...so i pretty much know or used to know a lot about aircrafts...

 

 

Anyways, I think Saab is nice(except for it's problems) but Subaru is Better!

[sIlvErsUbAru22]

i used to be a aircraft geek as well.. and they have a commercial where the car is flying right under a viggen and one where it drives straight on into a gripen maybe

[domphz]

before my Outback had a 9,5 here in europe, V6 turbo diesel. Subi engine is not as good as this saab was. I changed to subi following two many tech problems i have had wiht this saab and very poor service level also

 

Don' t buy this crap, GM owned and most probably going to collapse sooner or later; Here in Europe, saab sales are very very poor

 

[Anibalz]

i used to be a aircraft geek as well.. and they have a commercial where the car is flying right under a viggen and one where it drives straight on into a gripen maybe

 

One of the commercials was a like a ~2001 Saab sedan...I remember it...

[algol]

I don't have any particular problem with saabs other then their reliability. I'd just ask yourself whether the saab is worth enough to you personally for you to give up all the time you're going to spend getting it fixed. Basically, is the opportunity cost of not getting a saab greater than the opp cost of having to fix it. If the opp cost is not in favor of the saab that's all the reason you need not to get one.

 

Reminds me of once when I was getting an oil change done at the subaru dealership. Almost every technician was trying to repair this one saab that had been there way to long and no one could figure out how to fix it (was a trade in). They were complaining about it to me as they were so exasperated. Finally, this one italian guy lost it and started cussing at the car and kicked it so hard to bumper fell off. Wasn't a single subaru in the shop for repair.