Conversion of A/T Legacy to M/T

[motorob]

I did a search...

 

Does anyone know of a thread/discussion anywhere regarding conversion of 2005- Legacys to manual?

 

The shortage of manual cars (wagons) isn't going to get any better, and the cars that one can find are going to only be going up in mileage in the future. As resale values go down and parts appear in junkyards, converting these cars is going to become more and more attractive.

 

I'm assuming that to convert, one would need to change out the transmission and diff (obviously). In addition, you'd need a clutch and flywheel, clutch hydraulics, shifter (if not included with trans), console trim, and M/T pedal assembly. (And yes, all that nickel and dime-y stuff is going to add up.)

 

Some questions come to mind. Are the firewalls the same in M/T and A/T cars? In other words, is there a place to mount the clutch master? Are the pedal mounts in place for the M/T pedals in a A/T car? And might there be anything tricky about getting rid of the neutral safety switch for the A/T and hooking up the back-up lights? One last thing, is there any significant difference between the A/T and M/T ECUs (ECMs)? Thia might be related to questions about neutral safety switch and/or A/T ECU, what I'm driving at is, is the ECM in the A/T unique, and is it going to be looking for signals from the transmission in order to run properly? Are connections for the speed sensor adn that kind of thing the same? I've got no problem with doing the mechanical work required to swap trannys, but weird non-factory wiring splicing and that kind of thing creeps me out.

 

It would be interesting if we could start a discussion about these issues. On the face of it, it doesn't sound like a particularly hard job.

 

If this has already been discussed, apologies, and a pointer toward the appropriate thread would be appreciated.

 

 

Edited to add: Of course, this could all be moot if SOA wakes up and starts putting manual trannies in 2007 Legacys. 6MTs, if that's not too much to ask.

[Slickvic]

One last thing, is there any significant difference between the A/T and M/T ECUs (ECMs)?

Um, yes. And this issue alone will make this project a real bad idea unless you have many wheelbarrows full of cash and lots and lots of time on your hands.

Seriously.

[nhesketh]

I agree with Slickvic. It is not like the MTs don't exist, and even if you have to spend a few extra bucks to get one it would be shitloads easier to get a real MT car than to build your own.

[Penguin]

Why not just pick up a used manual trans car and if you are worried about the motor having too many miles on it pull it out and give it a good rebuild. I'll bet that would still be cheaper than a swap.

[motorob]

It's not so much miles on the motor, as miles on the whole car itself, cosmetic wear, etc. It's getting harder by the day to find a car with low mileage. But thanks for your input. If you desire a certain trim level and color combo, it makes it even harder. I'm at the point where I'm considering buying new in Canada and bringing the car in, despite the fact that the car costs more in Canada, I'll have to pay duty on it, and buy an instrument cluster for it. I don;t know WTH SOA is thinking, still selling a 5MT GT wagon in Canada and not here.

[John M]

There are still brand new 05 models still at dealerships in the US. Make a weekend trip out of it and go get one that you like.

 

Hell, I bought my car in 2005 and still drove 350+ miles each way to get it because I wanted this exact color & option combo. Also got it still in the as-delivered plastic wrap with the 9 miles on the odo from the factory & truck loading.

[matt]

You're crazy to be thinking about transmission swaps or importing one from Canada! Okay, not as crazy as SoA is for discontinuing 5MT wagons, but still crazy

 

I just double-checked and there's at least a handleful or three of new 5MT LGT wagons out there. Sure, most if not all of the new ones left have the fake wood interior, don't have the limited package, or both. Even so though adding a sunroof, leather, and/or fixing up the trim should still be quicker, simpler, and cheaper than a transmission swap or importing one from up north. And you might not even care about any of that.

 

Btw, what exactly do you mean by "low mileage?" <20k? <15k? <10k? etc.

[motorob]

"Low mileage", to me, is 5-10K. I might even want to buy new, hence my thoughts of buying a Canadian car, which is easier than a lot of you might think.

 

I have searched for a while now, with little luck.

 

I'd drive 2000 miles to get the color and trim I'm looking for, that would be the easiest thing in the world. I've searched all over, I don't think it's out there. I keep a car a long time, currently driving a 97 Legacy I've owned since 99, with 205K miles on it. I spend a lot of time in the car and keep it a long time, I want the color, trim, etc, that I want. I'm not really willing to settle for second choice color etc. Actually, I would be willing to choose from a couple other colors, but they're all too dark. It's about 103 degrees here from May to Sep, and dark colors are out.

 

Adding a sunroof? You've got to be kidding.

[chrisngrod]

You've never heard of people adding sunroofs? 600-800 dollars last time I checked.

[motorob]

I didn't mean to be snippy about this, I appreciate the idea, but you seriously have to be kidding if you're comparing an aftermarket sunroof to a factory one.

[matt]

I used to think that about aftermarket sunroofs too, but some recent posts on here made me think twice. At least one person on this board says he's had multiple aftermarket sunroofs and that the ones he got are better than most OEM ones, including Subaru's. Like many things I'm sure you tend to get what you pay for, but if you're willing to pay it sounds like you might be able to get a really good one. And you are willing to pay if you're seriously considering a tranny swap or buying from Canada

 

I certainly didn't meant to imply that getting a non-LTD wood interior LGT and converting it to a non-wood LTD one would be a worthwhile endeavor. I just meant that, IMO at least, it'd be preferrable to a tranny swap.

 

Btw, I just bought locally the exact wagon I wanted (red or silver 5MT LTD w/o fake wood). It does have 17k miles and I didn't save much over the better deals on a new equivalent sedan, OBXT, or 5MT LGT with the ugly wood interior. But both the seller and I know the market isn't exactly flooded with cars like his, so his asking price reflected that and I was willing to pay it.

 

What it came down to for me was in the end I'd rather have the extra miles on the car and buy it locally than have to negotiate with a dealer 1000+ miles away (there's no new 5MT wagons of any kind left in my area), hope the car is actually in "new" condition, be stuck looking at the ugly fake wood, and still likely pay at least three grand more after TTL and a plane ticket.

 

As far as the OBXT goes, its suspension was WAY too soft for me to seriously consider with no good aftermarket help available. (Yes much/all of the LGT aftermarket stuff fits the OBXT, but from everything I've read it's really not good for the car or its handling.) Heck, the LGT's stock suspension is also too soft IMO, but there's actual aftermarket products out there and the stock setup is decent enough for me stick with it for a bit.

 

The sedan was never really an option because it doesn't have folding rear seats.

[motorob]

Ditto everything you just said. Except for:

 

Aftermarket sunroofs would have to have come a loooong way in quality for me to consider one. I know of none that are retractable like factory roofs, but maybe I'm ignorant. The idea of what would have to be done to the roof structure of a car to install an aftermkt retractable roof is waaayyyy scarier to me than a tranny swap.

 

Tranny swap wouldn't cost that much and is pretty easy for me. I rebuilt the tranny in my GT, not a hard job, and trannies for 2005 GTs are out there in the sub-$1000 range. For me though, electrical/ECM issues are a no-go. I wonder if the car's wiring harness is the same from M/T to A/T? I don't know if you've done much work on Subarus, but there are all kinds of dead-end plugs taped-up all over the place for equipment that's not installed on particular models or even in this country. I wonder if the harness is the same for both transmissions and only the ECM is different? Maybe with just minor pinout differences, or even plug-and-play with dead pins for each application. A trip to the parts counter could answer that question, if the harnesses are the same then my guess is a simple ECM swap along with the tranny would work fine, much less of a problem than no clutch master mount or pedal box for sure.

 

Buying in Canada is also much easier than a lot of people might think. I have bought some rare motorcycles that weren't imported to the US in Canada and brought them over, that was MUCH more complicated and still pretty easy. I have contacts up there from rallying I can get to help me out. The Canadian Subarus are NHTSA-compliant vehicles, and SOA honors their warranty down here. If the exchange rate was better, I would just go ahead and do it, but right now a Canadian vehicle is actually pretty expensive for us. Just a few years ago it was a very different situation.

 

I agree about changing out interior, if it wasn't for the sunroof part of the LTD package, I'd do an interior to a non-LTD in a second. I've done that with cars before, beauiful thing about it is it frees you to do something better than OEM seats. I don't really care that much about the wood, and if it got on my nerves it's easy to change out. I want leather b/c I find it holds up a lot better than cloth, and I plan to keep this car a long time. Well, for a lot of miles anyway! I'm currently doing about 30-40K/year.

 

But yeah, I'm not doing a damn thing until I hear about what's on offer for 2007, and during that time maybe a 2005 will turn up. In hindsight, I should have just bought a 2005, I waited b/c I didn't want to buy the first year model, who the hell could have imagined SOA was going to axe the 5MT after one year?

 

One of my problems with mileage is crappy Subaru paint and rock chips. I live in a windy desert area and spend a lot of time driving at 80-100 mph. The fronts of cars really get sandblasted here. I want to ClearBra this car, and don't really want to put the film over a bunch of chips. Which pretty much any Subie over 15K miles is going to have plenty of.

[matt]

Hrmm, I assumed a tranny swap would be much more expensive parts and labor/your time-wise. Too bad about the eletrical stuff - otherwise you could do a tranny swap and end up with a 5MT wagon with factory nav.

 

As far as importing a 5MT wagon from Canada goes, the exchange rate and local pricing is exactly why I think it's not worthwhile. I didn't know till your post how easy or complex it would be for you to get one and legalize it here, but even though it sounds like that part is simple and cheap you'd still need to spend more money than they ever sold for new in the US.

 

Personally I'd look hard at a new 2006 A4 2.0T wagon at those prices. It's a smaller but nicer car, and supposedly very fast with just a reflash or chip. OTOH I still don't trust Audi reliability, the A4's back seat is even smaller than the Legacy's, and the wagon's cargo space is much smaller than the Legacy wagon's. Those new A4 wagons sure do look good though (much better than the new sedans IMO).

 

Actually, who am I kidding, I wouldn't buy a brand new Audi even if I was looking to spend $36k+. I wouldn't want to own one out of warrenty and they have terrible resale value. My Legacy, on the other hand, I'll likely keep for quite a while if it works out well after the first year or two. Of course I said the same thing about my last car. I really liked it and it was perfect for me...till I got into snowboarding. FWD handled DC winters just fine, but the Sierras are another story.

[MilesA]

If you can afford to wait, I'd buy used. You sound like you're willing to drive almost anywhere in the country for the right car.

 

What colors, etc. are you looking for? I assume white or silver, 5-speed LGT limited wagon with beige leather interior? Did you post a WTB ad here on the forum yet?

 

I have seen a white LGT 5-speed Limited wagon advertised with 3000 miles recently. PM me if you want more info.

[MilesA]

If you can afford to wait, I'd buy used. You sound like you're willing to drive almost anywhere in the country for the right car.

 

What colors, etc. are you looking for? I assume white or silver, 5-speed LGT limited wagon with beige leather interior? Did you post a WTB ad here on the forum yet?

 

I have seen a white LGT 5-speed Limited wagon advertised with 3000 miles recently. PM me if you want more info.

[itsme]

Wh ydon't you go to subaru.com and do an invertory search. That's what I did on Dec 14. I got one of the last 5spd mt LGT limited wagons for only $25k. No aftermarket sunroof can match the giant sunroof that come stock.

[chrisngrod]

I didn't even want a Limited cause I don't care for leather seats much (first two cars had leather) and in Houston it just gets hot as )@#)(#@$. Also I've had a convertible and hardly ever put the top down cause of the heat also. Don't need a sunroof for extra weight. Will probably lighten up the battery and put a g13ep in.

A LGT vs Limited LGT w/ just a g13ep is probably 85 lbs.

[motorob]

Wh ydon't you go to subaru.com and do an invertory search. That's what I did on Dec 14. I got one of the last 5spd mt LGT limited wagons for only $25k. No aftermarket sunroof can match the giant sunroof that come stock.

 

Did that, I think I may have been a couple months late.

[motorob]

 

Actually, who am I kidding, I wouldn't buy a brand new Audi even if I was looking to spend $36k+. I wouldn't want to own one out of warrenty and they have terrible resale value. My Legacy, on the other hand, I'll likely keep for quite a while if it works out well after the first year or two. Of course I said the same thing about my last car. I really liked it and it was perfect for me...till I got into snowboarding. FWD handled DC winters just fine, but the Sierras are another story.

 

Me too, no way would I own a VW/Audi product, you'd be amazed how many VW/Audi techs will tell you the same thing. I spend a lot of time driving in empty, empty country in the Southwest and Mexico, reliability is paramount to me.

[motorob]

If you can afford to wait, I'd buy used. You sound like you're willing to drive almost anywhere in the country for the right car.

 

That's no problem at all, I don't buy a car every week.

 

 

What colors, etc. are you looking for? I assume white or silver, 5-speed LGT limited wagon with beige leather interior? Did you post a WTB ad here on the forum yet?

 

Silver, 5MT LTD wagon, black interior (they didn't make silver/taupe in 2005). I figured WTB was a waste of time, anything would sell before i got to it. I just check the listings regularly. But yeah, I should probably post a WTB.

 

 

I have seen a white LGT 5-speed Limited wagon advertised with 3000 miles recently. PM me if you want more info.

 

I think I know that car. In Albuquerque?

[scatman]

Have you tryed the "want to buy" method? Maybe there is some one out there thats ready to sell. Hell I'v got 6k miles on mine with a plastic protector on the leading edge of the hood ie, no chips. I paid 30k for this car, if you offered me 30k that would still be cheaper than what your thinking of doing.

Unfortunatly I'm not ready to sell, sorry and good luck.

[BDII]

your talkin UP/DP, ECU, tranny, center console and a butt load of other parts not counting labor.

 

 

keep searching my Friend.

[motorob]

Labor?? I'd be doing the work myself. It should be a straightforward job, assuming mounts are in place for the needed equipment and there's no major wiring to be done. Changing transmission and diff is a day's work. Add another day or two for the fiddly stuff involved in changing A/T systems to M/T, assuming that's not too involved. As I said before, if the harness needs to have any major work done to it, then it's a no-go. But, that was the reason for my original post, to get information from people who really know something about the mechanical and electrical set-up of the car. Not (and my apologies to those well-meaning people who have tried to help) how to search the internet for a car. I'm not that bright, but I have managed to figure that part out.

 

I had not realized there was a difference between the A/T and M/T uppipes and downpipes, as Bu11dogg2 has mentioned. I have a hard time believing that.

[jagcars26]

 

I had not realized there was a difference between the A/T and M/T uppipes and downpipes, as Bu11dogg2 has mentioned. I have a hard time believing that.

 

Seems as if you have a hard time believing much about what people here are telling you.

I believe others havent chimed in as well because it is impractical money wise, etc, etc ,etc.

You want a sixspeed in a Legacy,take your question to a reputable shop (ie Rallispec,N.J.,Harmon Auto CA.)and get a written estimate.Maybe you won't have a hard time believing them.

[motorob]

Seems as if you have a hard time believing much about what people here are telling you.

I believe others havent chimed in as well because it is impractical money wise, etc, etc ,etc.

You want a sixspeed in a Legacy,take your question to a reputable shop (ie Rallispec,N.J.,Harmon Auto CA.)and get a written estimate.Maybe you won't have a hard time believing them.

 

Just came back to edit after searching downpipes, you beat me to it. Thanks for the tip.

 

I don't want a 6 speed, just a standard 5MT. They are availiable used for less than $1000. All the other parts required could be sourced for less than another $1000. Starting with an A/T car gives you a much larger pool of cars to shop from, and therefore are more competitively priced. I don't even have to do the swap right away, it's not like I couldn't drive the A/T car while I source the swap parts, I can afford to shop based on price that way. What am I missing here about how expensive this is going to be? If it's unrealistic engineering-wise, that's one thing. That's the only question I'm trying to answer.