GTTuner Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 The industry standard has dropped over the past 10 years..... Weight savings and cost to coat are two major reasons. Paint thickness is measured in mils (fraction of a mm), so don't think that you are going to get a 1/16" coating. A typical basecoat/clearcoat paint job is going to be a total of ~15-20 mils (or about 1/2 mm). You guys want to see paint problems? The factory paint is 4-7 mils on your average Chrysler product. If your over ten mils, its probably been repainted. The average body shop will lay down 15-20mils of sealer, primer, base and clear all combined. What is interseting is that certain colors seem more prone to chipping regardless of what brand car you buy. I don't know exact figuires, but there are only a handfull of paint manufactures in the world. Sikins, for example, supplies many, many car makers. I suspect that color has alot to do with it. Silver, by far, is the worst offender. I read a long term test on a LGT and they bitched about the paint scratching easily. My car is Garnet red. The paint on the flat surfaces for the most part is nice. The vertical surfaces leave a bit to be desired in the orange peel dept, and yes, mine scratches when the wind blows. However, I do 80% highway and after one winter (abeit a mild one) I am totally impressed how little it chipped up. I drive like an ass hole too, tailgating, doin 100+ mph every chance I get. I have only two chips in the hood, the bumper cover got several. I think it would be interesting to poll everyone with paint complaints as to what color their car is. And vise versa. My point is, I don't think this is unique to Subaru. They're buyingthe same paint other makers use. Maby it all boils down to the prep and application processes. It would be an interesting lawsuit if a savy lawyer put one together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccorry Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 ^^^^^ exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTTuner Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 We should do a poll. Color vs problems. I'd put the poll together, but I'm still a newbie to the forum and can't seem to figuire out how to poll. Shame on me, damn newbies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Dirty Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 I still don't understand how the color should even be a factor if they're putting enough clear on top of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTTuner Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 The color coat is basicly the base coat, so it's ability to adhere is not influenced a clear coat laid on top of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Dirty Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 The color coat is basicly the base coat, so it's ability to adhere is not influenced a clear coat laid on top of it. We're talking about chips coming off as a result of impacts with tiny bits of road debris, correct? We're not talking about bits of paint just falling off the bumpers for no reason at all. And the clear coat protects the underlying paint, if I'm not mistaken, either intentionally or inadvertantly. More clear coat --> fewer chips, right? My point is that I've neither heard of nor experienced this phenomenon with any other make of cars, aside from maybe Ford. I'm willing to bet that it isn't happening with the Legacy's market competitors, though I'm open to evidence to the contrary. For $30k I'm just a little disappointed with the overall finish of the car, inside and now out (and from the number of threads in here, particularly this one with this title, I can see I'm not alone). Do I regret the purchase? Not remotely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatesGr8 Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Garnet Red here about 14k miles of highway driving out of my 15 and only one tiny tiny paint chip (barely noticeable). I too drive well over the speed limit, like an ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Dirty Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 I think Subaru just doesn't know how to properly paint cars, or they do know and would just prefer to use cheaper quality materials. I'm not sure how much more well documented you guys need the problem to be - between the threads here (there are a few) and the Impreza thread(s) it should be pretty clear. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70399 http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41245 http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28978 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccorry Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 ^^^^ Right there you are already wrong. The Impreza and Legacy are built on 2 different spray lines in 2 different countries, with 2 different brands of paint. Apples and Oranges... my friend..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Dirty Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 ^^^^ Right there you are already wrong. The Impreza and Legacy are built on 2 different spray lines in 2 different countries, with 2 different brands of paint. Apples and Oranges... my friend..... So? You think Subaru scrapped their paint process and started from scratch with the Legacys? And how do you explain these Legacy threads? http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28787&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30449&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31074&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29649&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29357&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25927&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27283&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19369&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17668&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18188&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17126&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9065&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14739&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13093&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11046&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11005&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10003&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6416&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3902&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3665&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3079&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1814&highlight=paint+chip http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=911&highlight=paint+chip Check each thread out if you like. These are just threads dedicated to paint chip problems from this forum alone - I even left off the threads that were questionable as to whether or not they were actual complaints. How can you argue against this sort of evidence for a 2 year old car? Admitting the paint on our cars sucks isn't the end of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBaru Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 FWIW - Got about 4,000 miles on mine - looks like the front of the hood was hit by bird-shot, hood seems to be taking the brunt of it. Dozens of tiny specks, more apparent after each cleaning. POOR OVERALL BUILD QUALITY. Plain and simple. My '03 Forester had a total of about a dozen small chips after about 3 1/2 years. This new beast will need a re-spray within a year or two, I guarantee. Class action suit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Dirty Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Class action suit? I think I'm going to try my luck with my dealer. Repainting the front bumper, hood and - if the latest chips I'm finding keep up - the fenders won't be cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccorry Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 So? You think Subaru scrapped their paint process and started from scratch with the Legacys? And how do you explain these Legacy threads? blah blah blah blah Check each thread out if you like. These are just threads dedicated to paint chip problems from this forum alone - I even left off the threads that were questionable as to whether or not they were actual complaints. How can you argue against this sort of evidence for a 2 year old car? Admitting the paint on our cars sucks isn't the end of the world. Dude..... I WORK for an automotive coatings manufacturer. Don't argue with me on what paint processes they use. I have been in a few OEM paint lines ... including SIA, Lordstown (GM), Sterling Heights (Chrysler), and the Toledo (Jeep) plant. Every plant is different.... even within a company. They install what is current and it stays for a LONG time. Line updates and changeover of spray equipment is very expensive. The paint line is supplied by an automotive coating provider. They business is awarded based on quality and price. It is a balance. Plus..... GM, Ford, etc... have different FORMULAs for different plants... the formulas are taylored to the spray equipment that is used in the plant. You can b1tch all you want about the paint... that is fine. It is your right.... but don't go spouting off facts that are just plain false. And I don't need to check each thread... I have probably already posted in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rommel Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Paint chips are road hazzard, it has nothing to do with the quality of paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccorry Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Paint chips are road hazzard, it has nothing to do with the quality of paint. The only factor of the paint that is show by rock chips is poor intercoat adhesion. That is a formulation and cure problem. Our cars are not bad, historically speaking. Like I said before... check any late 90's solid (red is the worst) color vehicle. They chip if you look at them wrong. In the 80's, there was an issue with paint peeling off car hoods in SHEETS. And with those problems... they were never addressed by the manufacturers. Good luck getting Subaru to repaint your cars for a couple of chips.... They are going to tell you to pound salt. If you don't want chips... a clear bra is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irrational Exuberance Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 At least most cities have some public transit, but that still doesn't reach some outlying suburbs... "some public transit" doesnt mean shit if you are reffering to the bus system we have ehre in teh US as public transit you are f*cking kidding yourself. only a few cities (all of them back east) have a good tranit system and thats because of population density forcing people to use it. it is physically impossible for everyone in manhattan to have a car in the city, and the density of cities limited by the land tend to have good transit systems. there is no way LA (or sacramento where i live) can develope a cost effective, efficient, reliable transist system that people will atually use. why? it takes me 30 minutes to get anywhere in this place, and when its 110+ in the summer time anyone who thinks im gona stand outside at a bus stop needs to have their head examined. public transit in the US will enver work until gas prices reach a point where we have demand degredation (dont mess with the Economics yo). over the last 5 years US oil consumption has grown by an average of 1-2million barrels DAILY regardless of price. until there is we reach a critical threashold that forces people to seek public transit (ride shares included) public transit in this coutnry will be comical. look at the price of gas in Europe? the cost of owning a car is much higher, and when coupled with lower avg. income people HAVE to use public transit. thats why the onlything more reliable than a subaru is a Swiss Bus Driver. theres no demand for effective public transit stateside. not that i give a shit, i hate busses. "i like my women the way i like terrorists... ...screaming gods name and ready to explode." http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5479/troy3nu5.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Dirty Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Dude..... I WORK for an automotive coatings manufacturer. Don't argue with me on what paint processes they use. I have been in a few OEM paint lines ... including SIA, Lordstown (GM), Sterling Heights (Chrysler), and the Toledo (Jeep) plant. Every plant is different.... even within a company. They install what is current and it stays for a LONG time. Line updates and changeover of spray equipment is very expensive. The paint line is supplied by an automotive coating provider. They business is awarded based on quality and price. It is a balance. Plus..... GM, Ford, etc... have different FORMULAs for different plants... the formulas are taylored to the spray equipment that is used in the plant. You can b1tch all you want about the paint... that is fine. It is your right.... but don't go spouting off facts that are just plain false. And I don't need to check each thread... I have probably already posted in them. You're wading into blind and deaf fanboy territory now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Dirty Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 And for the record I've cited plenty of legitimate reasons to believe that there IS a problem with our paint, including my own experiences and the experiences of dozens of other members from this board alone. You've cited... some vague industry knowledge that doesn't even include Subaru's own actual process. And even then it's nothing more than to say that paint quality in general is weak. Explain why my friend with a black '05 Civic with 10k more miles on the odo, who commutes through rush hour traffic the same as I do, has zero chips? Could it be that Honda knows how to paint what Subaru does not? Feel free to brush that off too, as you did every single complaint of your fellow board members. And have you considered that your baseless opposition to our very real problem is undermining our efforts? It's like having some SOA propaganda minister moderating the forum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Dirty Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 ...and please excuse me if I'm coming across as a little argumentative. I'm just a little disappointed with how far my $30k+ went in terms of vehicle finish quality, inside and out (though I'll admit that I'm still happy with things mechanically... so far ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derffred Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 so if someone takes a hammer to your hood, are you gonna complain about the material they used for the hood? rocks on the road are nothing you can do about.. deal with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Dirty Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 so if someone takes a hammer to your hood, are you gonna complain about the material they used for the hood? rocks on the road are nothing you can do about.. deal with it That's a really intelligent comparison. I can see you really understand what this discussion is about. Thanks for contributing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCDetails Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 I have been in the detailing business for close to 10 years and I have worked on hundreds of different cars. I've had my 05 Legacy now for over a year and I can tell you that it is not the worst car I've seen after a year of ownership. I will say that the paint is a little easier to scratch than some cars, but all you have to do is bump up your car care a little bit to compensate. You can't buy a new car and expect everything to be the same as the car you had before. Just adjust to the needs of your new car and treat it accordingly. I touch up my chips and I polish out the swirls. This car looks as good as any other year old car with 12,000 miles on it. My suggestion is to anyone who things that Subaru owes them a new paint job is to learn how to polish your paint and quit bitching about something that is entirely within your control. Buy a polisher and some touch up paint and deal with it. _________________________________________ “Cleanliness becomes more important as godliness becomes more unlikely.” O C D E T A I L S . C O M OCDETAILS BLOG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Dirty Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 I have been in the detailing business for close to 10 years and I have worked on hundreds of different cars. I've had my 05 Legacy now for over a year and I can tell you that it is not the worst car I've seen after a year of ownership. I will say that the paint is a little easier to scratch than some cars, but all you have to do is bump up your car care a little bit to compensate. You can't buy a new car and expect everything to be the same as the car you had before. Just adjust to the needs of your new car and treat it accordingly. I touch up my chips and I polish out the swirls. This car looks as good as any other year old car with 12,000 miles on it. My suggestion is to anyone who things that Subaru owes them a new paint job is to learn how to polish your paint and quit bitching about something that is entirely within your control. Buy a polisher and some touch up paint and deal with it. Says the guy with the detailing shop. Some us have to live with less than weekly waxings. Entirely within our control... Seriously though - I challenge anyone on here to find another forum talking about a 2 year old car with as many paint chip complaints as we've had. If this is an industry thing every forum out there would be bitching about it, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCDetails Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 I challenge you to say something postive. You are just one big ball of negative blah blah blah. Instead of whining about your poor scratched up paint, how about you start looking for solutions. And I don't have a detail shop. I'm a hobbiest detailer who does this out of my garage. There isn't anything that I have or do that anybody here doesn't have access to. You'll notice that not everybody here is bitching about their paint. That is because most of us have learned to deal with it and solve the problems rather than just looking at them saying "Wo is me... my paint is scratched." Quit whining or give the car back to your mom and buy something that you can deal with. _________________________________________ “Cleanliness becomes more important as godliness becomes more unlikely.” O C D E T A I L S . C O M OCDETAILS BLOG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always Dirty Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 I challenge you to say something postive. You are just one big ball of negative blah blah blah. Instead of whining about your poor scratched up paint, how about you start looking for solutions. Thanks sunshine. I just wish I could be as upbeat and "se la vie" about it as you are when you concede that you're eventually going to have to repaint the bumper someday. http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=411132&postcount=13. Is that really a concern one should be having with a year old car? And I don't have a detail shop. I'm a hobbiest detailer who does this out of my garage. There isn't anything that I have or do that anybody here doesn't have access to. You'll notice that not everybody here is bitching about their paint. That is because most of us have learned to deal with it and solve the problems rather than just looking at them saying "Wo is me... my paint is scratched." Quit whining or give the car back to your mom and buy something that you can deal with. Sorry - some of us have lives and better things to do than putt around the garage all day with a hardon while we buff our cars. And what does my mom have to do with this? Something I can deal with? Sounds like another angry fanboy! Watch out kids! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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