My Week in Phoenix learning to drive

[chucktoo]

I spent last week in Phoenix at Bondurant driving school and my first NASA event.

 

I took the advance 3 day road racing school in the Cobra SVTs.

 

http://www.bondurant.com/courses/AdvancRR.htmL

 

The Cobra as it turns out are real pigs - they really only want to go in a straight line. You quickly learn to drive with the brakes - if you do not have the front wheels well loaded they will not turn the car. It is a lot of fun and you get good at braking.

 

There were 5 students in my class and two instructors.

 

The instructors were good but not even close to the level of people you get at Skip Barber. They were two aspiring young drivers trying to make it to the next level in racing. The Barber instructors were much older had been there and were slowing down and teaching people what they learned.

 

You did get a lot of track time about 4-5 hours a day actually on track.

Each student had their car for the entire course no sharing like at Barber.

 

We drove the Bondurant practice track good for learning and the West course which was a lot of fun . Plenty of room to push it, spin and not hurt anything.

 

http://www.bondurant.com/graphics/FacilityOverhead.pdf

 

Standard lead follow's then you drive for a while , the insturctor jumps in with you and teachs [ something that is difficult to do in the Barber single seaters].

Some times the instructor would do few laps to show you where the line is and how to set the car up for the turns. Remember in the Mustang's it it all about braking. On the third the students and instructors were out there together each in thier own car . It becomes painfully obvious that when you think you are doing well you are not even close to race speed. Atleast you get full speed lead follow.

 

The course would have been more usefull with cars that at are better ballanced.

For the Nascar drivers they teach about road courses the Cobra's are great.

 

The C-5 and Z-06 vetts are not available for this course since GM will not provided them. They only provide vetts for the Z06 experiance and Grand Prix Road racing courses. I guess they think these are the only student that might buy them.

 

Was it worth $2k a day that is really questionable to me. It was good but I am not sure it was twice as good as Barber that runs about $1k per day on average.

 

Over the weekend I rented a FFR spec cobra school car from racing adventures.

 

http://www.racingadventures.com/1cobra_school/index.html

 

http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/speccar/challenge.html

 

There were 3 of us who rented the Cobra's for the weekend . Dave who runs the operation brought the semi with 8 cars [ his normal load] and a mechanic.

They were great and extremely professional.

 

We did HPDE-2 and were ready for HPDE-3 by the end of the weekend.

 

The NASA insturction was OK and very basic they really did not have time to do more.

 

We ran 4 - 20 minutes sesions per day on the main Firebird track- with passing only on the main straight. There were 4 HPDE groups - 2 race groups and 1 drifting group. It was a full day and ran pretty smoothly.

 

Firebird is not a car friendly track - lots of concrete everywhere - not a good track to spin on.

 

 

http://www.firebirdraceway.com/5.5web/images/FirebirdCompleteWStrip.jpg

 

My car only had a drivers seat so I was on my own so it took me two sesions to learn the track and get a feel for the car. The spec Cobra is a great car - it is well ballanced [ not all V-8 cars have to be pigs] stops well on factory brakes designed for a 3600 lb car on a 2100 lb car and corners great. It is only the size of a Miata, weighs less and is significantly wider and has a V-8.

 

It don't get much better than an open cockpit V-8 Miata. By day two the only car faster around was a new M-5 that pulled away from everything on the main straight.

 

Having dealt with Dave and Racing adventures I am sorry I did not do thier 4 day school instead of Bondurant. One of the guys there had done a two day with Dave and was really fast from the beginning. The Cobra's are very close to the Barber open wheel spec Dodge's in handling - faster - and tons more fun to drive. Talking to Dave and a couple of other guys with them they are really cheap to race using stock Ford Mustang parts and hold up really well to track use.

 

I will take a 2 day custom advanced course from Dave in Februray down in Florida where he moves some of his cars for the Winter. Let you know how that comes out - i know it will be a blast.

 

In the mean time I think I have given up using my car to track race seriously. I am looking at a street legal Spec racer that is up for sale here. My car might be faster on the straight but no way it will handle better. The spec racer is a real race car with lots of steel in all the right places. It is also a lot cheaper to run on the trackand fix than my car will be.

 

http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/speccar/kit/frame.html

[rodan]

Nice write up. I've always wondered if Bondurant was worth the money at 3 times what a motorcycle race school costs per day...

 

Firebird is not a car friendly track - lots of concrete everywhere - not a good track to spin on.

 

You should try it on a bike... !! I'll be out there Sunday on my new track bike (assuming the bodywork gets here this week).

 

Just out of curiosity, did you get any timed laps on the West course? I'm interested in how the cars stack up against bikes there.

 

Those FFR spec Cobras are a great way to go racing. The light weight makes things much easier on parts...one of the reason I do bikes on track, much cheaper!

[rao]

Very interesting.

 

I think you are making a very wise decision on the car. No street car will be as good as a track car at the track and vice versa.

 

IMHO, you should build your own FFR spec racer (might as well learn everything ) and they are not that hard to build.

 

Keep having fun!

[chucktoo]

Sorry no time on West course -saw bikes there last weekend and they appeared to be going much faster.

 

For reference we only got to ~110 or so on the main straight in the Mustangs.

 

My bike riding days are limited with my knees - I am thinking about selling my R-1150R to help pay for the spec racer. My knees do not bend well any more that is why a " standard traditional riding position" bike.

 

I would love to build a spec racer but I don't have room or time.

 

If I can get the one I am looking at it is a good deal, less than a Miata.

 

A ~120 in an open cockpit car is a lot of run - different than on a bike at the same speed.

[rodan]

On my 600, I was getting to about 125-128 on the front straight. Haven't ridden the liter bike there yet. My best lap times are in the mid 1:05s, lap record (bike) is around :58 IIRC.

 

I still want to build one of those FFRs someday...

[Guest *Jedimaster*]

Chuck- you should provide driving lessons to lgt.com members.

[Nsaglibene]

Sounds awesome I would love to do that. When we gonna see some pics of ur sick car?

[Xenonk]

I'll do Skips.. more fun in formulas

[chucktoo]

I have driven both - I find the Cobra more fun and you can drive it on the street with a few mods. I will drive the RT-2000 next summer some time in Skips advanced racing school. I know I am a hopeless school junkie but I do not drive well enough yet not to need more education.

[sandwood]

so chuck, what would you say is best value for money? Skip Barber? what about as a one day event?

[chucktoo]

All depends on what you want to do.

 

Drive better and more safely on the Street ?

 

Race/Drive Education [ HPDE or equivolent] - Formula or Open Track ?

 

Just go run around a race track in fun cars .

 

If you really want to improve driving skills it will require lots of seat time.

Until you practice skills they really don't sink in.

 

Any one day thing just exposes you to what is possible.

 

It all boils down to how fast do you want to learn and how much do you want to pay.

 

I am old enough I need to learn quickly before I forget it in a senior moment.

 

I made an offer on a FFR to be made street legal spec racer.

 

http://www.whitbymotorsports.com/UInvDetail.asp?inventoryid=1540

[rodan]

I made an offer on a FFR to be made street legal spec racer.

 

Very cool! Good luck on the purchase.

[jj808]

Drive better and more safely on the Street?

This is mainly what i want but there is no way in hell i can afford $1k-$2k a day for a driving school just for that. I would be spending my almost all of entire monthly income in one day!

[Xenonk]

This is mainly what i want but there is no way in hell i can afford $1k-$2k a day for a driving school just for that. I would be spending my almost all of entire monthly income in one day!

 

Do the 1 or 2 day events that require to use your car.. some schools (such as the ones I goto) do just that and cost about $200 or $300 for a 1 or 2-day event. It's worth it from that stand point.. it's really worth it if you are looking for a lot of seat time.

[chucktoo]

NASA events run ~$300 for 2 days and ~3 hr on track time.

 

Other Driving Experiances will be more or less in the same category.

 

I figure about $100/hour in your car.

 

Race schools run ~$1000/day and ~3hours on track = ~$330/hour

My experiance is you share the car with another driver.

 

Advanced Race school runs ~$2000 per day and 4 hours on track = ~$500/ hour

You could do more time [ 5-6 hours] on track but you need to take breaks to keep fresh. The car was mine alone - tiime was only really limted by me.

 

Clearly using the your own car is the least expensive per track hour.

 

It all depends on how fast you want to learn and who's car you want to beat up.

 

I have no idea what the cost per hour is on you car for track time.

 

In the Mustang's we went though a set of front tires each day and rears every other day. They are really pigs.