Brake Pads: Hawk HPS or Stoptech Sport or ??

[All_talk]

Back story… I have over heated stock pads on pretty much every car I’ve owned leading to imprinting on the rotors and brake shudder, my ’07 Spec B is no exception. Apparently I’m aggressive on brakes thought I don’t feel like I every get past spirited or sporty driving, in any case stock pads don’t cut it for me.

 

After the stock pads failed me I went to Hawk HPS, and liked them, they took the heat and no imprinting. But, they are not so good in the winter, the combination of cold and wet made for some slight panic at first application after not using them for a few miles. Just cold or just wet didn’t seem to be a problem, just in combination. So you learn to drive around it for the most part (ride the brakes a bit before you need them), but it’s still an issue in a panic stop.

 

So next brake job I went to the Stoptech Sports, I felt these did not have quite as much bite/power, but overall, about the same as the Hawks, no overheating but the same cold wet issue.

 

So now its brake time again, and I’m hoping to find a pad that covers the whole range, something that can take the heat of spirited driving and have good first bite in the cold/wet. Does this pad exist? Do I really have to consider summer and winter pads like I do with my tires?

 

Experiences and recommendation wanted…

 

Gary

[boxkita]

It sounds like you could do better by changing how you drive. If you are riding the brakes, you're already missing the point.

 

Hawk HPS 5.0 (new & improved) are a bit better with cold braking. As they are sport brake pads, the first couple of stops should allow for longer stopping distances. After that, they should be ok.

 

Sport braking is different than sheeple/cellphone braking. Sheeple brake pads are ceramic with great bite and decent wear. They don't really survive "spirited" driving. They do ok on the track with trained drivers.

 

For the purposes of this post, a "spirited driver" is someone who has bought into the allure of a sports sedan and thinks they are challenging Ayrton Senna in every corner. They generally go through brake pads and cheap tires at a crazy rate. Usually are looking for $ solution to their lack of ability. I don't you but have had alot of you in class.

 

To get any brake pad to work, even full race pads; they have to be at operating temperature. Until then, it's like having hockey pocks for brakes. If you look at the entire distance of brake pedal travel as 0% (foot not on pedal) and 100% (if you are Fred Flintstone, your feet are rubbing on the pavement); the following will be easier to understand. At first sign of braking need, you need to transfer weight onto the front wheels without unduly unloading the rears, this is 60%. After a very slight pause (physics), you goto 100%, then 90, 80, 70,60,50,40,30,20,10,0. That's a full stop, and its a learned skill. You can practice at any stop with a stop line. 25 mph roads are best. Your front wheels should just touch the line if you are successful. This will teach you pedal feel.

 

While you are mastering pedal feel, you need to learn to look up. Like 4 car lengths down the road (no cellphone), this will improve your braking as you don't wait until the last moment. Waiting until the last moment ensures poor brake pad wear. For many people this is hard. Have a friend or enemy place a 6" strip of blue painters tape on the windshield blocking your view of the front edge of your hood. This ought to freak you out. Usually takes a couple of days to master after the tape.

 

Once you have mastered those two skills, most of your brake pad wear problems are solved. Advanced skills for the "S" 's involves learning about apexes. A skill you can practice on any road with divided highway (less chance of headon collision when you frack up). Drive in the right lane, and practice setting the steering wheel in one spot around a curve. The setting will change at every speed and pavement grip range.

[boxkita]

As all of the above is hard and doesn't cost money, get ceramic pads.

[All_talk]

Wow, I'm feeling offended by your attacks on my driving skills. I'm not sure how you could be more insulting without knowing me or my skills??

 

While I have no formal training I do have over 30 years of driving experience included many other performance vehicles. I am well practiced in weight transfer, modulation, threshold braking and even trail braking. Frankly my pedal feel is pretty well tuned. My on-road skills have been honed by 3 decades of mountain and cold weather ice and snow driving on low traction surfaces. I'm no race race driver but I feel my car control, in general, is slightly better than the average Joe. But thanks for putting me in a place where I fell like I need to defend it.

 

Pad and rotor wear is not an issue (nor was it mentioned), I have driven this car to over 300,000 miles on 3 sets of pads/rotors and none ever got close to fully worn.

 

Dragging the brakes was mentioned as a technique to dry/heat the brakes in cold wet conditions so that respond as expected when you want to use them.

 

(Troll feeding over)

 

So now that we and covered all the things I didn't ask about, let me focus the question...

 

Dose any have experience with a brake pad that has a little broder temp range? The Hawks are rated down to 100F, the Stoptechs to 60F? Anything out there with a low end closer to stock but a little hotter on the top end?

 

 

Gary

[boxkita]

As all of the above is hard and doesn't cost money, get ceramic pads.

 

reading comp is a problem too.

 

you want stock heat range, buy stock pads. You want performance heat range, buy performance pads. I used to have summer & winter pads. Thought it was worth the effort. Yer already doing summer/winter tires, why would you expect to have 4 season pads?

 

Troll - 30 years of mountain driving and you can't figure out braking? I'm guessing a review of the basics would help. Everyone needs a tuneup. /troll

 

frankly Im impressed you got 300k miles out of 3 pad sets. I rarely get 10k miles on a set.

[All_talk]

I think I have clouded the subject by discussing my experience with stock pads, and that has set boxkita and I off on the wrong foot. Its not that I can't drive within the limits of the stock pads, I choose not to, I enjoy late, hard braking, so I choose pads that can take it. But I do see limitations to those pads in cold wet weather.

 

So is there a "four seasons" pad? If not, then that's the answer to my question. Hawk says the range for the HPS 5.0 is 100-750F. Stoptech Sports look to be 60-1300F. Anything out there with about a 0-700F range?

 

I found the included chart on HPS compounds, if its to be believed, the HP+ might be closest to stock at lower temps.

 

boxkita, when you went away from summer/wither pads what did you settle on?

 

Aside from temp range, the wiping/cooking off of water seems to be in the mix as well. Some internet chatter seems to indicate the drilled rotors might help with that. I haven't seen much conclusion in the automotive world but it seems to be a proven thing with motorcycles. I've always been in the solid rotor camp, could there be something to drilled?

 

Gary

[ronemus]

I have had Stoptech Sport+ on the front and Sport on the rear (Sport+ not available) of my '17 Outback for several weeks and like them - no cold stop adrenaline like the HPS, easy modulation, and better bite and fade resistance than OEM. I am similar in my needs to your description. I should also note that my Outback has been modified to suit me: Continental 245/50-19 DWS06 tires on Enkei Raijin wheels, Bilstein B4 front struts and B6 rear shocks, Rallitek non-lowering springs in the back, Whiteline 24 mm front and 22 mm rear sway bars (both set on soft) with Whiteline rear links, Perrin steering dampener lockdown, and a non-standard alignment (o toe and -0.5 degrees camber at all 4 corners) that required Moog adjustable rear front and lower control arms to achieve. All of that gives me the performance I want (similar to the old Spec B Legacy wagons) at a modest price.

[boxkita]

the hp+ will work at lower temps as designed to be an autox pad. It has very high wear unless warm, like destroying your rotors wear. However they will heat up quickly and be very controllable once warm. On the road, I found them useless for highway driving as they disperse heat quickly.

 

I only used black/blue on a miata on track. I disliked the blue as cooled off to quickly for me. The black was an aggressive pad that worked well in Seattle colder fall days at the track. Rotor wasn't noticeable.

 

The dtc 70&60 are track only pads for summer use. Stand it on the nose braking. 130mph to 10 hard enough to set the inertial reel.

 

Ceramic pads are worth a shot for winter.

 

Keep in mind that chart is brake pad temp not air temp. If you are a fan of late hard braking without using tip-in, pretty much any pad is going to frustrate you. You could adjust the brake pedal to provide a little bit of drag to keep heat in them, but hurts gas mpg. That's why I suggested changing your driving stule.

 

Me, personally, I use HPS. I like the linear feel and I allow for the first two stops to be somewhat longer than normal. I use the 60% to 100% transition braking everywhere, so cold brakes aren't a problem. The pads heat up quickly to operating temp with little effort.

 

When I was agressively venting my work frustration on my drive home, I used HP+. Pad & rotor wear were high, so was tire wear.

 

If you want stock braking, stock pads. Something close is ceramics. But there aren't going to give you race braking at cold temps

[shralp]

I’ve been really happy with the Hawk ceramics on my Outback XT daily driver, just a bump up from OEM in its capabilities with bite and heat resistance but no noise and low dust. These with stainless lines improved my pedal feel a lot, (also running the larger LGT calipers and rotors up front, same config as your Spec B)

[All_talk]

Keep in mind that chart is brake pad temp not air temp. If you are a fan of late hard braking without using tip-in, pretty much any pad is going to frustrate you. You could adjust the brake pedal to provide a little bit of drag to keep heat in them, but hurts gas mpg.

 

By "tip-in" do you mean some progressive light braking before you climb on them? That has been my technique to mitigate the issue (the dragging mention in my first post), but I can still get caught out in a more emergency scenario. Luckily, I don't tailgate so its never been a dangerous situation.

 

I understand the chart/ratings are pad temp, I only seem to get the "where's the brakes?" issue when I've been off them long enough for things to cool down to ambient temps. Hence the question about pads rated down to 32F-ish. If I go summer/winter sounds like ceramics might be the winter choice.

 

 

Funny, you mention adjusting the brake pedal for a light drag, I was talking with a friend of mine that's a car chief on a race team and he said they use very low pressure residual valves to keep the pads in contact with the disk. Not that they have an issue with cold wet brakes (they don't race at 38F in the poring rain very much). He said they do it to eliminate knock-back and keep a consistent pedal feel. But I don't think draggy brakes are something I want on my street car.

 

 

Shralp, thanks for the input on your experience.

 

Gary