damn it this car will not go in a straight line

[Xenonk]

just add more throttle and make the front end lift up the car aint going to wander away if the front wheels aren't touching the ground.. [exaggerated vision of a GT doing a wheelie]

[Drakuun]

My wheel is cocked about 2 degrees towards the right, but drives dead nuts straight under acceleration, coasting, and breaking. With the wheel at 12 O'clock I drift ever so slightly to the left. However, on uneven pavement sometimes it feels like my tie rods are broken it grabs so hard.

[executor485]

It sounds like you have a problem with the alignment. I have noticed the car tends to pull to the right a bit and follow the crown of the road, and it was hugely exagerated when I had the wrong tire pressure as PGT has stated. I would definately have the dealer look at it. Also, you mentioned new springs on it as well? Are they all adjusted properly (not an expert in this area, just a thought).

And I have taken the car on many roads at various speeds and I do not notice any wandering at all. In fact, its one of the most stable cars I have ever driven or ridden in. I was in a friends 05 Mustang and it felt more drifty at 60-70 than my LGT at 100+, same track and all...

[miles]

My wheel is cocked about 2 degrees towards the right, but drives dead nuts straight under acceleration, coasting, and breaking. With the wheel at 12 O'clock I drift ever so slightly to the left.

Last year my dealer fixed my steering wheel which was off-center to the right when my car drove straight.

 

I told them to adjust the tie-rods like Xenonk told me.

 

You'll laugh!

They set the Left Toe to +2.8 and Right Toe to -2.8.

So when I centered the steering wheel the car drove straight.

 

The front wheels were like this / / when the steering wheel was off-center to the right. With the steering wheel centered the left & right wheels were straight.

 

And those sneaky bastards didn't provide me with the before & after alignment specs. They said the printer wasn't working.

 

When it comes to alignment both Subaru dealerships I've been to are so f***ing incompetent. I'm now afraid of any work they perform.

[PGT]

"printer not working' = 'we didn't put it on the rack'. My dealer pulled the same shit on me.

[PGT]

Patagonian GT, are these the Hunter specs for the '05?

What is the spec. for Max. Thrust Angle?

 

Front

 

Caster Left & Right

 

Min. 5°10'

Pref. 5°55'

Max. 6°40'

Camber Left & Right

 

Min. -1°00'

Pref. -0°15'

Max. 0°30'

 

 

Front & Rear

Individual Toe

Min. -1.5

Pref. 0.0

Max. +1.5

 

Total Toe

 

Min. -3.0

Pref. 0.0

Max. +3.0

Rear

Camber Left & Right

 

Min. -1°25'

Pref. -0°40'

Max. 0°05'

 

looks different from my latest printout. Thrust angle looks to be from: -.33 to .33, according to what I have.

 

I got my last alignment done on 9-22-05 (by the dealer, with '05 specs). I paid for an independent alignment in July, after swapping suspension out and adding Cusco braces. Amazing that RF toe, LR and RR toe, + steer ahead were out of spec within less thantwo months.

 

I am going to swap to Cusco coilovers next weekend (and sell my Bilsteins). Need to get the ride height where I want it (and compensate for the stereo gear in the back), then get it corner balanced and aligned. Hopefully, I will be done with fooling with suspension stuff for awhile.

[starlabs]

My wheel is cocked about 2 degrees towards the right, but drives dead nuts straight under acceleration, coasting, and breaking. With the wheel at 12 O'clock I drift ever so slightly to the left.

 

Hmm interesting, as I'm noticing the same exact thing on my car. Can't be totally sure as it's hard to find a truly flat road around here, but so far it seems to be doing exactly like what Drakuun describes.

[fan42025]

How about a third scenario, which I experience everyday...

 

At highway speeds, in a relatively straight stretch, very light grip on wheel, the car twitches both LEFT AND RIGHT. Feels like huge gusts of wind buffeting the car from either side. Totally unpredictable... and it happens on all types of road surfaces.

 

Exactly my problem. I'd say we've got to pressure the dealers to fix it. Not happy - might put me off buying another Subaru if they think I'm crazy.

[miles]

Patagonian GT, do you have the 2005 Legacy alignment specs?

[PGT]

Patagonian GT, do you have the 2005 Legacy alignment specs?

 

I do have them on my alignment printout, but my fiancee seems to have put the scanner somewhere that I couldn't find it. The 'vacation pics' should have them as well....if you don't have them, PM me your email and I'll search for the relevant pages and email you tonight.

[LawGT]

How about a third scenario, which I experience everyday...

 

At highway speeds, in a relatively straight stretch, very light grip on wheel, the car twitches both LEFT AND RIGHT. Feels like huge gusts of wind buffeting the car from either side. Totally unpredictable... and it happens on all types of road surfaces.

 

My car does exactly that!!!!

[Xenonk]

check your trust angle and caster on the car.. that and checking your tire pressures...

 

other than that, I can't think of anything else.. the car's steering is fairly light with this car (hence the moving back and forth motion you feel through the steering wheel).. it's probably also tramlining (bad road surfaces generally speaking and your tires are doing a good job tracking them).. I dont see anything wrong with a light steering wheel, just hold the steering wheel tighter.. if the wheel is too heavy to steer, i dont think it would be fun to drive around town, espeically at low speeds as if the car didn't have power steering.

 

The more caster you have on this car, the heavier and the more of a delay you will have when you switch directions (such as a slalom).. I had my fair share with this car acting "slow" in changing directions for me, especially with the weight of the car and the added negative camber.

[PGT]

Caster is not adjustable, as far as normal suspension parts go.

[Xenonk]

Caster is not adjustable, as far as normal suspension parts go.

 

 

just double check on the frame itself or anything else under the car that may be slightly bent. I know I had this issue with a slightly bent control arm on my old Acura Legend.. it wasn't just the control arm, but the mounting points to the control arm that pushed the whole hub forward just slightly.. of course the "alignment" shop didnt even see this and all they wanted to do was adjust and hammer whatever they can get it into place within spec..

 

I guess it comes to show you that some alignment shops just don't care about the overall portion of the car..

[schwinn]

How about a third scenario, which I experience everyday...

 

At highway speeds, in a relatively straight stretch, very light grip on wheel, the car twitches both LEFT AND RIGHT. Feels like huge gusts of wind buffeting the car from either side. Totally unpredictable... and it happens on all types of road surfaces.

My car does exactly that!!!!

Ditto here... though I will say I haven't checked tire pressures yet, either...

 

Happens at about 80mph for me, though it's kinda there at lower speeds. I suspect an alignment as well. I don't want to pay for it, but considering the reports from others with their dealerships, I wonder if I should bother with them. I have a local guy who is excellent, otherwise...

 

But, I am pretty cheap... so it will likely be a dealer visit.

[OhBe1]

But check the pressures first. Ours came from the dealer with 35f, 36/37r.

Handling was ... spooky...

[outahere]

How about a third scenario, which I experience everyday...

 

At highway speeds, in a relatively straight stretch, very light grip on wheel, the car twitches both LEFT AND RIGHT. Feels like huge gusts of wind buffeting the car from either side. Totally unpredictable... and it happens on all types of road surfaces.

 

I feel the same thing, to a lesser degree. I would call it drifting to the right and left, and not twitching to the right and left.

[hiymeh]

I've learned alot about camber in the last week, slidding sideways into curbs is not advisable. Took it to the frame shop and turns out I bent both of the rear lower control arms and the sub frame itself.... The frame shop seems sketchy of fixing everything, so the dealer confirmed that they would have no problem fixing it. Yeah right, get it back with all new parts but still a bent sub frame. Even with -3 degrees on the rear right I don't get the squirrly feeling you're discribing. Then again we have so much snow right now every turn is a free wheeling power slide, hence the curb problems. Really they should just eliminate the curbs, or make the more gradual, leave the snow and stop salting the roads I'm headed to the frame shop today, are the specs that pata GT posted accurate? I'll print those out, because your right alot of guys are using the 04' specs.

[johnny_m]

The specs ranges I have for an '05 are (all measurements in degrees):

 

FRONT

Camber: -0.8 to +0.3

Caster: +4.9 to +6.4

Toe: -0.08 to +0.08

Cross camber: -0.8 to +0.8

Total toe: -0.17 to +0.17

 

REAR

Camber: -1.3 to 0.3 (but not adjustable)

Toe: -0.08 to +0.08

Total Toe: -0.17 to +0.17

Thrust Angle: -0.33 to +0.33

 

These numbers were given to me by the folks at STS.

[miles]

Alignment Specs from 2005 Legacy Service Manual.

 

FRONT & *REAR CAMBER

*REAR CAMBER is not adjustable.

Camber (Differences between RH and LH: 45' or less)

 

Sedan & Wagon

 

2.5 i, 2.5 GT

-0°15' ±0°30'

OUTBACK

0° 40' ±0°30'

CASTER (not adjustable)

 

Sedan

2.5 i, 2.5 GT

5° 55'

OUTBACK

4° 55'

 

Wagon

2.5 i, 2.5GT

5° 40'

OUTBACK

4° 55'

 

Front Toe-In

 

Sedan & Wagon

0 ±2 mm

(0 ±0.08in)

 

Rear Toe-In

 

Sedan & Wagon

0 ±2 mm

(0 ±0.08 in)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Legacy Sedan alignment specs. provided by dealership.

 

Front

 

Caster Left & Right

 

Min. 5°10'

Pref. 5°55'

Max. 6°40'

 

Camber Left & Right

 

Min. -1°00'

Pref. -0°15'

Max. 0°30'

 

Front & Rear

 

Individual Toe

 

 

Min. -1.5

Pref. 0.0

Max. +1.5

 

Total Toe

 

Min. -3.0

Pref. 0.0

Max. +3.0

 

Rear

Camber Left & Right

 

Min. -1°25'

Pref. -0°40'

Max. 0°05'

[GTWag]

My guess would definitely be the tires and possible grooves in the road surface...

 

I expereinced the exact same problem when I installed my Pirelli PZero Nero tires (225's). The highway has grooves in it (running parallel to the road direction), and the PZero's have wide channels. The tires would catch the grooves in the road (the 10 freeway in LA) and make me feel sick it moved around so much. Right/left movement unpredictably, felt just like the wind blowing me around. It drove me insane and felt very unsafe!

 

I replaced the tires with some Bridgestone RE950's (back to standard 215's) and the problem was completely gone. I wonder if the roads you are on have grooves in them too? I never had a problem on roads withOUT the grooves (when I had the PZeros), and I havent had a problem since i swapped them out.

[bwalton]

Caster can be adjusted by shifting the front sub-frame; however this may not be to only issue that is causing your pull. Please read my post on 1-4-06 titled "The pulling is driving me crazy". I am having the same pulling issue with my 05 OBXT and the dealer dialed both the left and right wheels cross toes, cross cambers and cross casters to zero or .01 degrees (i.e. dead even and to Subaru's specifications). This morning I checked the ride hieght at all four wheels and all of the measurements were within 1/16" of one another and to spec.. Something else is at play here because a lot of LGT members are having the same pulling issue. I am starting to believe that it is a bushing issue with the steering rack mount, rear control arm's liquid filled bushing or the struts top hat. The reason I say this is because I installed Whiteline's ALK (rear control arm bushing) and steering rack bushings in my wifes 03 WRX wagon and that car had great straight line stability compared to a 04 WRX I drove with the same tires and OEM bushings. In fact the 04 WRX also had a right pull after a number of alignments.

[fan42025]

This makes a lot of sense because here in Oz we have the opposite problem since we drive on the left side of the road. This plus the jumpiness of the steering at freeway speed has almost convinved me to never buy another Subaru. I suppose what you pay is what you get as BMW and other equivalents have a much better feel when driving them. However, I don't understand why - surely in this modern age all car manufacturers would have solved these pesty problems.

[Supertoon]

Glad to have read this post, my 07 Spec B does the same thing. No fun on the highway! Always have to make slight adjustments at the steering wheel. I am running 4 dedicated Graspic Winter tires at 34 psi. I know of a really good alignment shop (helped my partner set up his race car) tempted to take the car in.

[BT4]

I am trying to find out if anyone that has installed these has solved the problem that many of us have on the freeway with straight line stability (tramlining):

 

The following review is helpful, but not definitive:

 

Paul Hansen

www.avoturboworld.com

Ch-ch-ch-changes. The rolling R&D studio that is my car has gotten a few new bits of metal and urethane bolted in, and what a difference they make! Much more than I had thought they would.

 

To outline what state of suspension my car is already in, it's currently riding on a set of HKS Hypermax coilovers and has been lowered about 3-4 cm. The rear stabilizer bar had already been upgraded to an AVO 20mm solid adjustable stabilizer bar, which provides a nice improvement in roll resistance over the hollow tube JDM OEM 20mm rear stabilizer bar. I was lucky to have gotten one of the first year Legacy GT's in Japan, as they came with a 20mm hollow bar in the rear as standard. Later years the bars became smaller! The stabilzer endlinks have also been updated front and rear with AVO adjustable endlinks.

 

If anybody is curious about the level of testing I do when it comes to suspension, I've snapped a few endlinks in two during the initial testing. Once it was in the mountains around Tokyo, around midnight. It was at the rear, so was not too dangerous, I just adjusted my driving style and kept on going!

 

The AVO rear stabilizer mount brackets.

 

 

What has been added to the mix of suspension now is two different bits. At the rear, the stabilizer bar mounts were upgraded with the new AVO stabilizer bar rear mount brackets. It bolts over the standard mount and to the rear t-mount, adding in a whole lot more metal for the rear bars to bolt up to. At first I was skeptical that it would do much, but that was because I never paid much attention to how thin and flexible those rear mounts are. I quickly changed my view after driving the car with the bracket mounts in! I could feel the difference immediately, as it felt as if a larger rear stabilizer bar had been fitted. That was not the only benefit, as it turns out. Some high speed corners showed that it was far more stable at the rear, with no wibble-wobbles at the rear to sap my confidence.

 

Mounted on the car

 

 

So you could say I was pretty happy so far. But we were not stopping there. Next up was a test of the new CAB system for the front suspension. The Caster Adjustment Bushing system does just that, increases the caster up front slightly, and also replaces the big, squishy tennis ball that the front suspension pivots on with a harder polyurethane bushing. I knew that increasing the caster would help both turn-in and straight line stability, but the worry was towards NVH - noise and vibration harshness levels. Which is why I was testing it.

 

The CAB in all its glory

 

 

I suppose I should not have worried at all. While there was a slight increase in feedback, it's not harsh at all. I actually enjoy the increased feedback from the steering, as it is much easier to feel what is going on at the front now, and it's not painful at all. The steering effort is a little higher now, at least at the initial tug to the steering wheel. That is due to the stiffer bushing, which has less give to it. There is also quite a bit more straight-line stability, which is quite welcome to me. Even when properly aligned, the car felt nervous in a straight line, and I felt as if I had to pay constant attention. Now it feels much more solid and steady when cruising down the expressway, even at high speeds. Crosswinds appear to affect it less than before, and it resists tramlining better.

 

Once the corners appear that the most dramatic changes are felt. Despite the car having not been aligned properly, it feels much better at every turn of the wheel. It appears that, just as the bracket mounts removed wobble in the rear, the new polyurethane bushings and increase caster have removed wobble at the front. Cornering is much, much flatter in the front, even at low speeds, and especially at high speeds. The car is quite neutral now with just a touch of understeer at speed. It is dialed in perfectly for going very, very quick.

 

Along with the increase in feedback, it is now much easier to dive in and feel my way through the corner, as I can tell what's going on with total confidence. I took my usual route through the Shutoko expressway to test it out (think Tokyo Highway Battle). That pretty much sealed the deal for me once I whizzed through my favorite corners a good 10-15km/h faster with less tire scrub from the front, and a heck of a lot more confidence mid-corner.

 

After much thought about this, I believe I know what has happened. Subaru designed the front bushings to be quite soft, especially that big main one. This reduced NVH levels quite a bit, but it also introduced a lot of flex and play into the system. This is why they specified such a large stabilizer bar - 21mm - in the front as standard equipment. That is actually fairly large for a factory car that is as light as the Legacy. And the very first version of the Legacy GT came with a nice rear bar as well - a hollow 20mm rear stabilizer bar. The only problem with this setup is that it was dependent upon a fairly aggressive suspension setup and rubber. Without those two components, the car got a bit tail-happy with the 20mm rear bar, so later models had a smaller rear bar as standard equipment.

 

How it looks on the car

 

 

With the current setup, the car is set up very well. Now that the front bushing isn't moving around so much, the standard 21mm stabilizer is more than up to the task of keeping the front of the car nailed down. The additional caster does not hurt at all in that regard as well. And with the solid 20mm adustable rear bar and bracket mount upgrade, the rear is also nailed to the ground.

 

Overall, I'm pretty stoked. I can't wait till the next time attack at Tsukuba, as it is now quite a bit faster through the corners, even with the dampers set to full soft. Even on the street it is much more fun to drive now, and feels more the proper sports sedan. I cannot wait to see what comes up next!

 

Cheers,

 

Paul Hansen

www.avoturboworld.com