Nonamedude Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 OK this should be easy so I've been working on it a bit but I'm getting stuck so lemme detail everything. I have a hard steering wheel shaking when braking at light and medium pressure above about 60mph. Here's the run down of it all. Had shaking. Thought it was brakes. Rotated tires and it got worse. Balanced tires and it got better but still there some. Thought then it was maybe pads/brakes/calipers of unknown mileage. Lgt pads rotors and rebuilt calipers. All duralast (autozone) brand. Fresh brake fluid. Bed in pads based on Hawks instructions. Better but not gone. Time goes by. Lgt steering rack upgrade, low mileage rack. New inner and outer tie rods. Alignment done. New whiteline bushings. Increase in nvh. Shaking starts getting noticeably worse now, I assume because the slop is gone. Tie rods feel good and tight. Wheel bearings feel good and tight. Clunking noise on small bumps. Grease caliper pins. Old boots looked good so reuse. Napa sylglide. Clunking is 95% gone. Shake is still there. Rotate tires. No change. Re-bed pads, do 2-3 stops at 65mph as well. Things feel good after for maybe a day but it's only a high speed problem so maybe I just wasn't in the speed range. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 6, 2020 Author Share Posted November 6, 2020 Caliper floats fine and compresses with ease. Brake pads look to have normal wear and don't seem to bind on the clips. Suspension components are likely original but dampers are not shot. Control arm bushings are terrible and ball joint might be as well and I'm wondering how likely that is. All brake components have lifetime warranty and I could just go exchange them but that requires a second running vehicle and time. Don't want to do unnecessarily. They only have maybe 5k miles on them. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvick08GT Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 "Control arm bushings are terrible and ball joint might be as well and I'm wondering how likely that is." Don't the control arm bushings and ball joints keep the wheels on the car? I would say that could definitely be an issue with your high speed vibration. Good thing mevotech makes some inexpensive replacements. That being said, you should have a trained technician look at your car if you are not interested in replacing everything, one component at a time. Good luck with the issue, keep us updated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 6, 2020 Share Posted November 6, 2020 Were you able to smell the brake pads where you did the "rebedding" ? If not...Do more 60mph to 5mph max pressure braking before lock up. 5 or 6 times may be needed. Then drive for a mile without touching the brakes. Life time warranty on the pads...may be there not good at shedding the dust. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 6, 2020 Author Share Posted November 6, 2020 Were you able to smell the brake pads where you did the "rebedding" ? If not...Do more 60mph to 5mph max pressure braking before lock up. 5 or 6 times may be needed. Then drive for a mile without touching the brakes. Life time warranty on the pads...may be there not good at shedding the dust. No I didn't. I might have to go farther into the country to get a good road for it. They might not be, but the lifetime warranty includes wear. As in you bring in shot pads and they give you new ones. They make money on it cuz normal people don't keep their cars long enough and enthusiasts get fancy pads. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 6, 2020 Author Share Posted November 6, 2020 "Control arm bushings are terrible and ball joint might be as well and I'm wondering how likely that is." Don't the control arm bushings and ball joints keep the wheels on the car? I would say that could definitely be an issue with your high speed vibration. Good thing mevotech makes some inexpensive replacements. That being said, you should have a trained technician look at your car if you are not interested in replacing everything, one component at a time. Good luck with the issue, keep us updated. I THINK the control arm helps keep geometry stabilized during compression technically. That's actually kinda my question is would bad control arm bushings cause that as I've never heard that being the case. Unfortunately I have yet to find a good mechanic. The one dealer was garbage but it's Detroit. There's one SOMEWHERE. That said mevotech arms were already in the plan. Just trying to figure out if I should accelerate it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvick08GT Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 When you start braking the entire suspension shifts from the force. I would definitely accelerate your plan to change the lower control arms. They will move as soon as you touch the brake pedal and change the front geometry (toe,camber and caster) good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 7, 2020 Author Share Posted November 7, 2020 Had not considered that. Well I knew they had to be done eventually. I'll try a rebed and later this month likely, new control arms. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pleides Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 Do you get any shake at highway speeds? I got a couple control arm bushings that are shot and I have a lot of your symptoms, but mine show their colors when I drive on the highway. Little bit of wheel shake that isn't terrible (not as bad as running without a hub ring), but annoying. My brake pads are at 5 mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 7, 2020 Author Share Posted November 7, 2020 Almost none. I'd say there is none but when I changed out all the steering components I had a tiny uptick in vibration. I did have that at first but a wheel balance solved the problem. I know that steering damper can wear out and is supposed to cause some highway speed vibration. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 (edited) Ok! If your control arm bushings and ball joints are shot, that should be changed asap, regardless. If you are braking and your suspension isn't stabilized it will cause issues. Everything is effected by the suspension and with a bad control arm, which looks like your case, the wheels can pretty much wobble at any point, acceleration, braking whatever. If there is an obvious problem, you should fix it, and that will help zone in on the the real issue. Oem control arm bushings are shit, no 1! And 2nd, ride quality and performance are drastically effected by that rear lower control arm bushing, it effects a lot of the geometry. Thats pretty much one of the WORST bushings you want to leave unattended and not maintained. I would fix that first, because you HAVE to, and then see whats going on! You should go through your suspension and inspect all the bushings rear and front, it seems you haven't shown you suspension any love. Oem bushings suck ass! Edited November 7, 2020 by Tehnation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 (edited) No I didn't. I might have to go farther into the country to get a good road for it. They might not be, but the lifetime warranty includes wear. As in you bring in shot pads and they give you new ones. They make money on it cuz normal people don't keep their cars long enough and enthusiasts get fancy pads. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Last time I re-bedded the brakes on the Spec, I could smell them and see dust blow out, (in the rear view mirror) as I stomped the brakes. Don't wait to long between stomps on the pedal. Edited November 7, 2020 by Max Capacity 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 7, 2020 Author Share Posted November 7, 2020 Yea I've been working on going through suspension. All my money went into stabilizing my engine first! I was hoping to wait on control arms until I lowered the car so I only do ball joints once, but at least I won't have to worry about the short life span on the mevotech ball joints! Gotta wait for money to stabilize but I'll be getting control arms likely next week or two. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 so true... I hear ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 (edited) You plan on getting the whiteline kit? Here's another option! You could save some cash buy getting a poly bushing kit instead for the rear one, you have 3 options from whiteline, part numbers are Standard WL# W53353 $125 +Caster and Anti-lift WL#KCA334 $130 +Caster, Anti-lift and Spherical WL#KCA334M $240 not recommended lol For the front WL# W0506 $50 Tie rod and ball joints WL#KCA313 $200 Other companies might make a comparable product for cheaper, not sure, but I would check just to make sure you can't get the same thing for maybe 100 or 80, polyurethane isn't rocket science at this point. I believe Energy suspension has a complete control arm bushing kit, Energy Suspension 193102R or 193102B (red and black), is only 65 bucks, compared to 175 for the 2 whiteline kits. And they have a lifetime warranty and are Poly. https://www.energysuspensionparts.com/19.3102 Damn.... they don't seem like a bad buy at all for 65. I just found them now, was a little surprised my advice was true but didn't expect such a cheap solution. If you have a press you can do it yourself https://www.energysuspensionparts.com/installation_instructions/17610.pdf or find a good machine shop, and pay like 10-20 dollars each to put them in, takes them like 5 minutes if they have the right cups. So you can fix the problem for 265 with the wl ball joints, rather than spend an 250 on the control arms, get it all done for 265. If your control arms are still good, its much cheaper to just fix them instead of buying new ones, plus you get better poly bushings, so you end up with a superior product for a lower cost. Edited November 7, 2020 by Tehnation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 7, 2020 Author Share Posted November 7, 2020 My control arms are super rusty. Not "bad" per say. My thought was, aluminum control arms cuz I hate rust and saves me effort. Run that for 6 months to a year. Then when I lower it, whiteline anti roll kit and anti lift kit (not the spherical, I drive 500 miles a week). I thought about just doing the rear bushings. Using the burn them out method on the old ones but I have no idea the condition of the ball joints and so I have to assume at 180k they are no good. That's why I figured I'd just do it all. I've heard good things about energy suspension from the Honda groups. I think they are supposed to be a good low cost solution for daily drivers and old cars. I had a set of shifter bushings for the civic but then it got wrecked before putting them in. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 Bad to me is bent, rust on suspension parts, eh, get some sandpaper and some spray paint, good as new lol. But I won't lie the aluminum arms look better and are lighter, but realistically the performance difference is negligible. I own a pair of mevotechs so I can't fault you on wanting them. What type of bushings come with mevo? I never actually looked into it or can't remember if it was rubber or not. Now I am remembering that I gotta press my old bushings out and put them into the mevos... I got lazy and said screw it, I'll just use them until they go bad. But this new solution for 65 has me curious so I will probably buy it. The nvh for poly vs rubber is split, but I think most people prefer the poly control arm bushing vs rubber because its crucial and doesn't wear out nearly as fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 7, 2020 Author Share Posted November 7, 2020 99% sure the mevo come with poly bushings. If you're running the mevo ones still, I wouldn't bother pressing them out unless you were getting the added caster of the whiteline ones. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 hmm according to summit its rubber, and i trust their info. Other sites state rubber as well. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mev-cms80182 actually mevo says its rubber as well https://www.mevotech.com/part/CMS80182/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 7, 2020 Author Share Posted November 7, 2020 Good to know! It's been a while since I first looked at them. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 500 miles per week on Michigan roads? It's been awhile, but nvh will get old pretty fast. I'd avoid the race car suspension bushings if possible. Energy has lower stiffness bushings than Whiteline (usually). Replacing control arm bushings can be done with a hf press and random sockets for dies. I paid a shop to do it for less hassle. Before spending any more money on random parts or high speed brake testing, replace the bushings on all 3 corners. The rear bushing is mist likely torn. Bedding the brakes usually takes care of shuddering while braking. It does require getting them hot enough to transfer material. 80-20 a few times is usually enough. Drive exit to exit back and forth, the transition to the opposite direction is enough of a cool down. Try to pick a section without stoplights so there's no actual stopping required. You'll want to press hard but not enough to set off the abs. Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 7, 2020 Author Share Posted November 7, 2020 Yea the roads out here aren't great. It's nice that I have the higher side wall of the outback tires. I do door dash and shipt full time so it's a lot of driving. Which also means a lot of wear unfortunately. Hopefully that tax credit works well. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chessyB Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 (edited) I did my breaks back in may. Using the mid grade napa stuff, pads and rotors. It fixed the same shake problem. Then it came back, It got so bad that I pulled the wheels off and put a dial indicator to check for warpage. It had more then a rotor with 2500 miles on it should. I had napa do a Deflective coverage on my pads and rotors "Pads were glazed over". I upgraded to the top of the line pads and rotors from them "they have slotted rotors" . That was last night so no idea if it will come back. It went away for me again, I did notice my front rear control arm bushings are cracked and tearing so that's the next thing "well all bushings" My thought not that I'm the sharpest tool in the shed. with warn out bushings any type of rotor warp instead of being felt in the peddle it makes a death wobble at speed. The bushings are allowing more movement that then gets exaggerated in the steering wheel. Edited November 14, 2020 by chessyB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted December 29, 2020 Author Share Posted December 29, 2020 I hate unfinished threads. Right control arm done. In some ways shaking got worse. Finally got left control arm in. Perfect. Didn't even rebed the brakes and the shake is completely gone. Definitely either bushings or ball joints. Can't say for certain as both were in bad shape. I do still plan to rebed the brakes just in case but it was an hour drive home tonight an didn't have an issue once. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasabi Mami Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Ill be interested to know how you fix it. Same problem here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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