Options to improve frontend push

[MDSubie4]

So i have a basically stock LGT Wagon except for 20mm rear sway, 18x8's wrapped in 245/40/18's, and just did a performance alignment to max out camber, zero out toe, etc... There's about 50K on stock springs and shocks and they are still in good shape, the miles have been easy on them.

 

So with the current setup, should I be looking to increase the size of the front sway bar from 21 to 24 for example, there don't seem to be any bigger rear sway bars on the market for this car. I've been looking for a Perrin 25mm rear but no luck.

 

I don't want to do coilovers, not in my budget. Drop springs, but only ever so slight were something I was considering, Swift, but with the installation of spacers on both front and back to keep me at or near where I am now.

 

Any opinions on what I can do to improve spirited driving through corners and not be worried that I'm sliding around in my seat or car seems to want to continue through toward the guardrail?

 

Many thanks.

[Chocoholic005]

If you put a bigger bar on the front end, you're gonna increase understeer and make the car push. You need to determine what the car needs relative to your driving style/preference, not just ask us what to throw on it.

 

If you don't know how to do that, it's better you spend money on driving classes to learn than modify the car.

[whitetiger]

step one, tire upgrade. you trying to push the limit on all-seasons?

step two, learn to drive better.

step three, suspension boltons(shocks, springs, then bars)

[MDSubie4]

If you put a bigger bar on the front end, you're gonna increase understeer and make the car push. You need to determine what the car needs relative to your driving style/preference, not just ask us what to throw on it.

 

If you don't know how to do that, it's better you spend money on driving classes to learn than modify the car.

 

I want the car to not push me towards the outside of the curve I'm turning on. So if in fact a larger front sway bar will in fact increase that effect, then no, I won't order one. I don't want to have to fight the wheel or incur greater g-forces pulling me off the line. So perhaps improving my suspension (shocks/springs) would be a better idea, or looking for a bigger rear sway bar if one exists.

[MDSubie4]

step one, tire upgrade. you trying to push the limit on all-seasons?

step two, learn to drive better.

step three, suspension boltons(shocks, springs, then bars)

 

 

1) I have full summer tire setup, michelin performance tires.

2) . I know what you mean to some extent(apexing a curve) I'll assume. But we're not talking about racing here, instead just driving through a highway onramp or offramp in most cases.

3) Agreed. Perhaps need to improve shocks to Koni/Swifts as an example instead of current stock setup.

 

Thankyou

[Chocoholic005]

I want the car to not push me towards the outside of the curve I'm turning on. So if in fact a larger front sway bar will in fact increase that effect, then no, I won't order one.

 

 

Smaller front bar or larger rear bar to combat understeer... but swaybars are only one of many ways to accomplish that goal.

[whitetiger]

1) I have full summer tire setup, michelin performance tires.

2) . I know what you mean to some extent(apexing a curve) I'll assume. But we're not talking about racing here, instead just driving through a highway onramp or offramp in most cases.

3) Agreed. Perhaps need to improve shocks to Koni/Swifts as an example instead of current stock setup.

 

Thankyou

 

1.) meh, you can still do better than that;)

2.) even onramp behavior will improve if you learn to drive it properly. ive seen way to many people, who think they know what they are doing, fail at even the most basic of spirited driving. Doing some autox or an evo school helps a ton.

3.) yep.

[boxkita]

Tires seem overly wide for the rim. What tires, exactly, do you have? Michelin SuperSports need to be at 40psi to avoid rollover, though, you don't want to run that all the time.

 

A bunch of random suggestions based on a decade of flogging a wagon and teaching ppl to do the same in their cars.

 

If you really want to know how your tires are doing, get a lumber crayon or white oil paint pen, find all the little triangles on your michelins, draw a line from the middle of the tread through the triangle to the lettering. Make a drive(it helps if you make a repeatable course). Then check the wear. If you are wearing the marks to the apex of the triangles on all tires, you're about right on pressure and driving.

 

I know you, and just about everyone else, don't believe it, but a stock LGT in the hands of a novice driver has higher capabilities than the driver does. Sorry.

 

Replacing parts to get faster is a good indicator you don't know what you are doing.

 

A Michelin SuperSports tire has 3 stages of slip,er,sounds. Normal cornering is no noise, medium is a bit squealing, harder gets a steady state howl from all 4 tires, and at the limit, the tires start slipping however its a mild slippage and easily recovered.

 

If you can find a cloverleaf and/or perfect circle on ramp, you can practice steady state cornering to find your limit. If, in a perfect circle off/on ramp, if you maintain a constant speed, you can work on bringing the speed up to the point of all four tires howling. Forewarned, this is a good way to get a ticket.

 

If you are not using harry's laptimer or something similar, you have no real clue what you are doing vs the car. Get one. Pay the money to get the gps feature. Make a course. Save a baseline. Drive with your windows down so you can hear the car "talking ". Then drive it a couple of times. Being able to compare two runs side by side will teach you alot (think ghost car mode in driving games).

 

In a decreasing radius turn (most on/offeamps), the wagon will be loose in the rear. This is by design because lighter, however its been setup from the factory to under steer all the time. If you are under steering, you have too much throttle and/or steering. You have to back off one or both to get control.

 

Imagine a stick is attached to the gas pedal and the steering wheel. If you are matted on the throttle, you're going straight. If you are fully locked on steering, you have light throttle. This is physics. And you are not Senna. Sorry.

 

If you are are not reading Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets book, version 6; not much of this going to make sense. You want to go fast, Ross is the best at explaining how.

 

Lastly, some reality. I used to regularly beat 911's in the slalom with my lifted mini truck. Its not parts that make you fast, it's knowing how to drive that makes you fast.

[boxkita]

 

Any opinions on what I can do to improve spirited driving through corners and not be worried that I'm sliding around in my seat or car seems to want to continue through toward the guardrail?

 

Many thanks.

 

If you are sliding in your seat, you're sawing the wheel or driving too fast for conditions. If you are nearly hitting the guard rail, you have too much throttle.

 

Understanding how to apex a turn will drastically change how you drive on the street. The average road lane is 12 feet wide, the LGT is 6 feet wide at the mirrors. The typical margin is usually 6 feet wide. Almost hitting the guardrail means you're overdriving by a whole lane. Think drunk driver...slow down.

[MDSubie4]

Tires seem overly wide for the rim. What tires, exactly, do you have? Michelin SuperSports need to be at 40psi to avoid rollover, though, you don't want to run that all the time.

 

A bunch of random suggestions based on a decade of flogging a wagon and teaching ppl to do the same in their cars.

 

If you really want to know how your tires are doing, get a lumber crayon or white oil paint pen, find all the little triangles on your michelins, draw a line from the middle of the tread through the triangle to the lettering. Make a drive(it helps if you make a repeatable course). Then check the wear. If you are wearing the marks to the apex of the triangles on all tires, you're about right on pressure and driving.

 

I know you, and just about everyone else, don't believe it, but a stock LGT in the hands of a novice driver has higher capabilities than the driver does. Sorry.

 

Replacing parts to get faster is a good indicator you don't know what you are doing.

 

A Michelin SuperSports tire has 3 stages of slip,er,sounds. Normal cornering is no noise, medium is a bit squealing, harder gets a steady state howl from all 4 tires, and at the limit, the tires start slipping however its a mild slippage and easily recovered.

 

If you can find a cloverleaf and/or perfect circle on ramp, you can practice steady state cornering to find your limit. If, in a perfect circle off/on ramp, if you maintain a constant speed, you can work on bringing the speed up to the point of all four tires howling. Forewarned, this is a good way to get a ticket.

 

If you are not using harry's laptimer or something similar, you have no real clue what you are doing vs the car. Get one. Pay the money to get the gps feature. Make a course. Save a baseline. Drive with your windows down so you can hear the car "talking ". Then drive it a couple of times. Being able to compare two runs side by side will teach you alot (think ghost car mode in driving games).

 

In a decreasing radius turn (most on/offeamps), the wagon will be loose in the rear. This is by design because lighter, however its been setup from the factory to under steer all the time. If you are under steering, you have too much throttle and/or steering. You have to back off one or both to get control.

 

Imagine a stick is attached to the gas pedal and the steering wheel. If you are matted on the throttle, you're going straight. If you are fully locked on steering, you have light throttle. This is physics. And you are not Senna. Sorry.

 

If you are are not reading Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets book, version 6; not much of this going to make sense. You want to go fast, Ross is the best at explaining how.

 

Lastly, some reality. I used to regularly beat 911's in the slalom with my lifted mini truck. Its not parts that make you fast, it's knowing how to drive that makes you fast.

Tbankyou, that was a good read and some terrific advice to ponder. Much appreciated.