iaacek Posted May 19, 2019 Share Posted May 19, 2019 Dude, where's my engine? I've hit 243kkm (~ 152k miles) on my 2008 2.5i Legacy wagon and during a power steering fluid change I've noticed that the HG started to leak. Right now I think they only leak externally but there is a couple more things that are suspicious. Anyway, yesterday I pulled the engine (my first time ever doing it, I've pulled the transmission before to change the clutch) and now I have the engine in my shed: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted May 19, 2019 Author Share Posted May 19, 2019 Here is a couple of images from the initial inspection: I am already making list of what is definitely bad but please take a look and let me know what you think. Passenger side head gasket Driver side head gasket - back of the engine Rear main seal Oil pressure sensor Thermostat housing/water pump Oil pan - front of the engine I have to go and walk my dog for a bit and then I'll jump back on the engine and start stripping it down. Let me know what you see in those images=) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyRuu Posted May 19, 2019 Share Posted May 19, 2019 the oil pan looks like the suspect but could also be the oil pump right above it, might be good to pull it and inspect it and reseal it anyway, I've only done two both had proper clearances but one had a couple of the screws on the back plate backing out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted May 20, 2019 Author Share Posted May 20, 2019 You're right. I was looking at it very closely and I still can't tell which one it is. Maybe both. Anyway, I think I'll pull the pump and the pan as well. I don't have the gasket for the pan but I'll bet it on Rock Auto. What did you use to seal the oil pump? Did you have the original THREE BOND 1217G (gasket maker) and THREE BOND 1324 thread locker? Or did you use something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted May 20, 2019 Author Share Posted May 20, 2019 Timing + cover: First I've removed the crankshaft pulley using my homemade tool (2x4 + 4 bolts): Then I proceeded with the cover pulleys, tensioner and belt and I've also loosened the cam sprockets: Here is another look at the bottom of the oil pump and pan: Still can't tell which one is leaking. I'm leaning towards the pan but I'll most likely remove the pump and reseal it anyway. I've done the timing when the car had 168kkm. I've used the gates set which at the time was still made in Japan, well mostly. Here is the tensioner after ~75kkm: The piston is leaking oil. At the time of installation I thought it's made in Japan because the roller is a made in Japan - NTN. But I guess the rest of the tensioner is something else, made in "whoknowswhere". Also I think that the tensioner was the source of knocking sound during cold start below 0°C. The sound always went away when the engine got warm. Here is the whole old gates set: Combination of NSK and KOYO. Btw the toothed roller is not very smooth after 75kkm. I would probably last but it developed some play. Tensioner is trash (the piston portion) and the belt is almost like new. Anyway after reading some threads about Gates quality I've bought the Continental Contitech Pro series Plus kit: And I've really impressed: - AISIN waterpump - made in Japan (same as I installed during the 168kkm service - still really smooth) - water pump gasket - the wire kind - camshaft seals - origin unsure - the have: NK117 80673-2050 7957 marks on them. They very similar to OEM (I have those from last time) but the OEM has NOK AH1850H on them - MITSUBOSHI belt - made in USA - tensioner - made in Japan, NTN body with NTN roller, piston with NOK seal - teethed roller is GMB - I believe GMB is one of the OEM suppliers for Subaru - smooth roller - KOYO - Japan - smooth roller with lip - NSK - Japan Paid CAD $295 on Rockauto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted May 20, 2019 Author Share Posted May 20, 2019 (edited) The intake manifold was next: Longblock: What surprised me was all that carbon buildup in the intake manifold - I guess that's where the oil was slowly disappearing. Is this much carbon in intake normal? I have to check the PCV. Piston 1: Piston 3: Piston 2: Piston 4: Intake manifold: I should probably remove throttle body and give the intake manifold a good cleaning right? Same goes for the intake journals in heads... Edited June 18, 2019 by iaacek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 Definitely clean that intake manifold. That carbon build up is not normal. Seems like excessive blowby from pcv system. The pan uses silicone sealant if I remember correctly, so no gasket. It's a bitch and a half to pry off. Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted May 21, 2019 Author Share Posted May 21, 2019 I'll check the PCV (I have a new one on hand). What is the best way to clean the manifold with that much carbon? Some chemical? Or drill with wire brush? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted May 23, 2019 Author Share Posted May 23, 2019 I've removed the water pump as I saw some gunk on the bottom of it and I wasn't sure where is it coming from. Now, it looks like it's coming out of that hole left of the bolt hole. What is that? Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted May 23, 2019 Author Share Posted May 23, 2019 Next were the heads. Passenger head - cover down Rocker arms removed Pass head down Driver head down Head + bolts Pass side pistons The honing is still visible Driver side pistons By the way do you guys reuse the head bolts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaasaiWarrior Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 By the way do you guys reuse the head bolts? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO..... btw NO:lol: Glad to see another canadian here, too bad you're so far away. ARP Head studs every time! 08 Spec B, insta: @08_spec_b, 10 SH Forester insta: @shfozzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted May 24, 2019 Author Share Posted May 24, 2019 Yeah, you're quite far away. I'd like to check some LGT. Wouldn't mind upgrading to it one day but 2.5i is a good daily driver. Head bolts: I know that a lot of people use ARP bolts here but I don't know. I've read a ton of forum posts and the FSM and I've decided to reuse the bolts. Looking at the installation steps: From what I've read when reusing bolts people are skipping steps 2, 3 and 4. So I'll just oil them, tighten the bolts (in order) to 31 ft-lb, followed by 80-90deg, followed by 40-45 deg, followed by 40-45deg on (a) and (b) only. With ARP bolts: do you have to buy new ones every time you take the head off and reinstall it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino6303 Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 I'll add a few thoughts. 1. Use permatex ultra grey on the oil pan if you can wait for it to cure correctly. I actually prefer permatex "the right stuff". 2. The coolant is from the weep hole of the waterpump. 3. You can reuse the head bolts as they are torque to yield and not stretch bolts; although it is generally not recommended by many. 4. I would buy and use an ej257 sti headgasket since they are multilayer steel whereas the impreza gaskets are usually composite (at least they use to be). If you search on nasioc you'll find quite a few threads on which gasket to buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgoodhue Posted May 24, 2019 Share Posted May 24, 2019 Make sure to replace the spark plug tube gaskets. 4. I would buy and use an ej257 sti headgasket since they are multilayer steel whereas the impreza gaskets are usually composite (at least they use to be). If you search on nasioc you'll find quite a few threads on which gasket to buy. My 2009 2.5i had the MLS gaskets done at 111k miles last year. Using some logic, the original HG on his car lasted 11 years and 150k miles. It is pretty likely that using the same OEM quality gaskets should last another 10+ year and 100k+ miles. If he does not think he will keep his car (or it will last) anywhere near that long, one could probably get away the OEM gaskets. If one was planning on keeping the car 250-300k + miles, it may make sense to use MLS gaskets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted May 27, 2019 Author Share Posted May 27, 2019 I'll add a few thoughts. 1. Use permatex ultra grey on the oil pan if you can wait for it to cure correctly. I actually prefer permatex "the right stuff". 2. The coolant is from the weep hole of the waterpump. 3. You can reuse the head bolts as they are torque to yield and not stretch bolts; although it is generally not recommended by many. 4. I would buy and use an ej257 sti headgasket since they are multilayer steel whereas the impreza gaskets are usually composite (at least they use to be). If you search on nasioc you'll find quite a few threads on which gasket to buy. 1. I plan on using the Permatex Ultra Grey 2. Since I have another AISIN pump, I'll change it. What does it mean when coolant is coming out of the weep hole? 3. I'll reuse them. Should follow all the steps in the torque sequence or just the second part? 4. I bought MAHLE head gasket kit. The head gaskets are MLS. I'll add some pictures later.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 The work is continuing but a bit slower now... Shortblock: Oil Pan is down: it took some convincing to get it down: Oil Pan surface on the block PCV is down - had to use impact to get it off. As expected the old is dirty and it is sticking. It's not stuck but it takes considerable force while shaking to get it to move. The new one is smooth. The old one was on the car for 243kkm, given that it's still probably "decent". Rear main seal - it is OEM but it was sweating a bit I bought a MAHLE rear main seal - made in Japan: Cleaned and installed: Water crosspipe surfaces before: And after: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 For the head gaskets I've bought the MAHLE HS55016B Kit: And this is everything that will go in: MAHLE HS55016B Head gasket kit CONTITECH PP307LK2 Timing kit with water pump STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS V497 PCV valve - made in Japan AISIN THF003 (THF-003) Thermostat - made in Japan MAHLE JV5199 Front crankshaft seal - made in Japan MAHLE JV1666 Rear crankshaft seal - made in Japan NGK 5463 spark plugs - FR5AP11 - Subaru OEM spec Now I have to clean everything and reseal what needs to be resealed... I've started with the block, just a reminder how the it looked before: And after: For pistons I've used: old credit card as scrapper, small round punch to scrape/pry bigger carbon pieces and brass wire brush for the final clean up. For head gasket surface: old credit card and 400 grit wet sand paper. I've used water as lubricant and also to clean the sand paper often and wipe the surfaces with shop towel. I've check the surface after with the straight edge and 0.002" feeler gauge and it didn't fit so I think I'm good here =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted May 31, 2019 Author Share Posted May 31, 2019 Final stage of cleaning up the parts... Oil pump Cam cap Oil Pan Heads are back from the machine shop Bottom side Intake ports Exhaust ports with the bolts reinstalled 2 out of 3 came out of the heads. I've cleaned them with wire wheel and reinstalled using Loctite 242. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moral hazard Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 Have you considered going with 2010+ headbolts as they appear to take a bit more torque. https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/psa-subaru-changed-headbolts-improved-2010-onwards-271129.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted June 5, 2019 Author Share Posted June 5, 2019 No I haven't. I reused the bolts. The sequence I used: - oil the bolts really well including the head and washer - I skipped the initial tightening and reversing, in alphabetical order: 1. tighten all bolts to 11 ft-lb 2. tighten all bolts to 21 ft-lb 3. tighten all bolts to 31 ft-lb 4. tighten all bolts by 90° 5. tighten all bolts by 45° 6. tighten A and B by 45° We'll see how it works out =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted June 5, 2019 Author Share Posted June 5, 2019 Old oil pressure switch was leaking so I replaced it. I would like to get a proper oil pressure gauge but I'll do it next time. Access to this sensor location is fairly quick Is it normal that the cylinder honing is still visible after 243kkm? Driver side first: head gasket Bolts dropped, well oiled Halfway through the sequence, heads marked before angle torquing Head torqued Passenger side: Torqued: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted June 5, 2019 Author Share Posted June 5, 2019 All the parts lubed and ready to be assembled Cam cap sealing - Permatex 599 Block heater installed to help with the cold starts Oil pan gasket Oil pan mounted Cam seal front Cam rear seal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted June 5, 2019 Author Share Posted June 5, 2019 I've found that the Mahle gasket set does not include oil pump o-ring (the one between the block and the pump) so while I was waiting for it I did the intake manifold. Finally I have the o-ring Oil and water pump mounted Contitech timing kit Timing marks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted June 7, 2019 Author Share Posted June 7, 2019 (edited) I've used assembly lube on the bearings and cams but I've also added some fresh oil on the springs, rocker arms etc to help with the first start. After that I've set the valve clearances. They were pretty tight but there was still a bit of slack. FSM says check every 24kkm. Well I think this is the first time anybody touched that in 243kkm. One thing that was confusing to me was the description in the FSM. Set the cam on LH side so the arrow points to the mark on the block (12 o'clock). Set the clearances for cylinder #1. Then rotate crankshaft 180° and set #3, rotate again and set #2, rotate again and set #4. For some reason I've thought that the camshaft has to rotate 180° each time which made no sense to me. After I've reread the steps couple times and used spark plug tubes to inspect the piston position I realized where I misunderstood. You rotate the crankshaft by 180° but the cam only rotates 90°. By holding a hand over the spark plug tube (with the spark plug removed) you can feel the compression stroke - and the valve clearances are set when each piston is at the TDC of the compression stroke. After setting the clearances it was time to clean the valve covers and put new gasket in. Engine is in one piece again The old release bearing had 50kkm on it and it wasn't as smooth as a new one any more so I've decided to change it because I had access to it. Clutch plate was still in brand new condition, it will outlive the release bearing big time. But I guess it comes down to every driver and how he "rides" the clutch. Now it was time to pull the crane and get the engine back where it belongs Transferring the engine from the stand to the crane: Flywheel, clutch plate and pressure plate in place: Engine touchdown. I had a friend to help me with that. Given that my driveway is sloping a fair bit I didn't feel confident doing in just by myself and risk the crane moving and damaging the transmission shaft. In two people it was ok. A bit of going back and forth but one we matched the angle of the transmission and got the bottom bolts on the engine housing into the transmission housing the engine was in quickly. Once the gap was only 1" or less I've put in the rest of the bolts and used those to evenly pull the engine and transmission together. Everything reconnected: And now came the most interesting (and stressful) part of the job. Will it start? The answer: it did. No problem. It actually sounded really good and I think it was due to setting the valve clearances. One thing to note: After about a minute or two of idling my friend noticed some smoke coming from the area of the oil dipstick, no crazy smell, white/greyish smoke (it was already dark so the flashlight might have affected our perception of the color). I panicked a bit, turned off the engine and started looking where it could be coming from. There are no wires is that area and it was coming from where the exhaust manifold is. I've checked whether I've bolted it correctly but it was fine. Also if it wasn't bolted it would probably be super loud. I've started the engine again and after a minute we saw the smoke again for couple of seconds and then in disappeared. I think what happened is that there might have been water condensation inside the exhaust manifold splash guards that evaporated. Or maybe some coolant - when I was pulling the engine I spilled some for sure. I'll keep watching it. Anyway, so far after 50km no leaks at all. I'll keep watching it closely. The goal was to drive this car till it has 500kkm but I am no longer commuting that far (used to do about 55kkm a year) so the chassis will probably rust and fall apart before the engine will say goodbye... And that's the end. First time doing this job so it took me a lot of time but it was actually fun and I learned a ton about the EJ253 engine. I like it more than before=) Edited June 7, 2019 by iaacek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iaacek Posted June 7, 2019 Author Share Posted June 7, 2019 (edited) I thought I'll add a list of everything I've changed and how much it cost me. This is everything I've changed + the HG (not in the picture). Here is cost breakdown, all prices are in Canadian dollars. Parts: MAHLE HS55016B Cylinder Head Gasket / Set ($241) - most of it made in Japan. I still have a couple of gaskets left from that set (plenum, EGR, valve stems, injectors). Time will tell but I was confident in the quality + I wanted to give them a try. I think Mahle belongs to Victor Reinz and they are the OEM HG supplier for Subaru but I might be wrong. I've seen some video on how they improved the design of the gaskets so why not =) CONTITECH PP307LK2 Timing Kit ($295) - really great kit. Made in Japan including the fully made in Japan tensioner (not just the pulley like the Gates kit but the body as well). Includes camshaft seals (I've used Mahle) and the belt is made in US. AISIN water pump (there was a small ding on the thermostat housing surface but not that big so it wouldn't seal - that would be the only negative thing I can say about this kit). From now on I sold on Contitech kits. MAHLE JV5199 Front Crankshaft Seal ($8.68) - wasn't part of the head gasket kit (made in Japan) MAHLE JV1666 Rear Crankshaft Seal ($9.10) - after pulling the engine the rear main seal I was that the rear main seal is sweating so I've orderer new from Rockauto (made in Japan) MAHLE OS32153 Oil Pan Gasket ($6.49) - I've only bought it for the o-ring, I've used permatex 599 to make the gasket STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS V497 PCV Valve ($15.54) - made in Japan NGK 5463 4xSpark Plugs ($26.48) SUBARU OEM 10991AA001 Engine Cylinder Block Seal Ring ($3) - Oil pump to block o-ring - has a special flange SUBARU OEM 30502AA051 Clutch Release Bearing ($57.5) - Centaur Subaru Calgary SUBARU OEM Valve cover bolt ($2.26) - I had to saw one off and use bolt extractors to get it out - it was rusted in place SUBARU OEM A0910AS100 Engine Block Heater ($69) - will use this a lot in the cold Canadian winters. WIX 46914 Air Filter ($12.64) WIX 57712XP Oil Filter ($8.76) STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS PS160 Oil Pressure Sender / Switch ($4.43) Third party work: Head Machining (D&W Custom Engine Specialties Calgary) ($294) - this included machining, cleaning and vacuum testing both heads. Overall the service was great, I can recommend these guys. Supplies: Permatex 599 Ultra Grey ($10) Loctite 242 ($9) Gasket Remover spray ($9) - total rubbish, I was so mad with it that I threw it in the garbage =) Permatex 81950 Ultra Slick Engine Assembly Lube, 4 oz. ($18) OEM brand Premix 50/50 Coolant ($20) Valvoline Synthetic 5W-30 ($27) Valvoline Special Moly Grease 400g ($4.50) - to lube the transmission snout and fork Tools I didn't have yet: NAPA 12point socket set: ($47) - I only needed 14mm but it was $13 alone and the set was on sale (10 to 24mm sockets=)) - might be handy one day OTC 6180 9 Piece TORX Plus Socket Set ($45) - who the heck is inventing all those different bolt types. I only had Torx and I didn't want to mess up the heads on the cam cap plate bolts Precision Instruments PREC2FR100F Wrench (3/8" Dr. Split Beam Torque w/Flex Head (20-100 Ft./Lbs)) ($179) - I do have 1/4 NAPA digital and 1/2 Precision Instruments Split Beam so I got this one to complete the set. I used it a lot during this job Engine crane and stand ($275) (used on Kijiji) - used but worked well. I might keep it or start renting it or sell it again. I could have rented it but because the job took me 20 days (mostly 2 hour evenings after the kids went to sleep) it would cost me about $210 for the crane alone and $50 for the gas + 6 hours of my time - I live in a small town. Total for parts: $759.88 Machining: $294 Supplies: $97.5 Tools: $546 ---------------------------------- Grand total: $1697.38 To put that number into perspective: It's kind of my sport now that every time before any repair I call the dealership and ask them how much would they charge me for the job. I asked about a head gasket service - changing the head gaskets + timing kit. There answer was +- $5500 (this includes head machining). Good thing I was sitting when they told me the price. On a car that is worth like $6000 maybe? To pay $5500 does not make sense to me. I own most of the tools needed, I have the FSM, I enjoy working on cars and I am sure as hell not paying $5500 for this. I reasoned that even if I mess up real bad, I can still get a new engine for ~ $4K (or cheaper if it's only a short block). So why not give it a try?=) Edited June 18, 2019 by iaacek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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