Future of Subaru if/when electric cars take over

[xt2005bonbon]

I've been wondering lately what will 'make a Subaru a Subaru' once most cars will use electric motors. The argument of low center of gravity with the boxer engine will be irrelevant, as well as 'symmetrical AWD' since these can easily be taken care of with two electric motors on each axle, etc... So really, I do not see what would make Subaru stand out from other car companies. What do you guys think?

[Tronic]

Hopefully I will not need to worry about electric cars for another 10 years. While they continue to make cars like the Nissan Leaf, there is no way in hell I'm going to be driving one.

 

The only thing that currently concerns me is the move away from the manual transmission. I can avoid buying an electric or a hybrid but if they quit making cars with a 6MT then I'm really going to be pissed.

 

Perhaps Subaru should just stick to making at least one or two conventional cars like the WRX and the STi. Pretty happy to be driving one of these and leave the rest of the population to drive something boring.

 

The move to electric or at least Hybrid looks inevitable. I would have preferred the move to much smaller and lighter cars with smaller turbo engines but the rise of the SUV and bigger and bigger vehicles on our roads has put paid to that idea.

 

The market is still being driven by what people "Want" rather than what they have to have, for example if you cannot afford to put petrol in it or at some point there is simply no petrol. We could see quite a fast evolution in the car, but not until its forced on us.

[NSFW]

I've been wondering lately what will 'make a Subaru a Subaru' once most cars will use electric motors. The argument of low center of gravity with the boxer engine will be irrelevant, as well as 'symmetrical AWD' since these can easily be taken care of with two electric motors on each axle, etc... So really, I do not see what would make Subaru stand out from other car companies. What do you guys think?

 

Love.

 

http://www.carmichaellynch.com/work/subaru-love/

 

Seriously though, I doubt that a significant percentage of Subaru customers know or care about low CG or symmetrical AWD, other than as feel-good marketing/branding concepts, no different from the "Love" marketing campaign. Some of the WRX/STi buyers care at least a little bit, but the Forester / Outback crowd? Nah.

 

Then again I also don't believe that the symmetrical-ness of Subaru's drivetrains ever made any measurable difference in the first place. Color me cynical.

[ehsnils]

Funny thing is that I was at the local dealer and had a chat yesterday, where they revealed that hybrid solutions are coming.

 

 

If the information was right then it's the Outback, Forester and XV that will get this here, with an electric motor on the output of the gearbox, so the AWD will still be mechanically as it is on the current vehicles.

 

 

Somewhere around March/April I'll try to take a look at demo vehicles if they have arrived by then.

 

 

One reason that forces this here is that the road tax took a hike recently for vehicles with fuel consumption above a certain administrative level, so my road tax would be like US$760/year for the Outback I have with the current spec. Add to it a fuel price of over US$6/gallon and people are looking around for alternatives cheaper to use.

 

 

Today the penalty of a larger car like the Outback over the Impreza in fuel consumption is 10%, which is of course a little higher but not a remarkable difference. Fuel consumption improvements have been most noticeable on the larger vehicles on the market while smaller vehicles have become heavier to cope with safety regulations.

 

 

As for the motors on two axles to take care of AWD purposes - some of the insight I have through rumors evaporating from Volvo Cars is that it's a lot harder than it looks like at first glance to make the engines cooperate well, and the mechanical AWD is still better, especially if it's a VTD type and not the ATS type.

 

 

Personally I like the Subies because they give me AWD and reliability at a decent price. Many of the alternatives out there take a price hike as soon as you whisper AWD. Just a Volvo XC60 AWD is about 25% up from the Outback in price here. The Honda CR-V is smaller and a bit cheaper (like 9%) than the Outback here. Of course - any car is a compromise, so it's not easy to choose.

 

 

Also compare working with the vehicles - all modern vehicles are a bit of a headache to work with as soon as you want to repair or do modifications, but Subaru is still one of the easiest to work with. Even those that complains about spark plugs should know that there are vehicles where you need to take out the engine to change the spark plugs, which is something that exists on some transversal V6 vehicles.

[DrD123]

All car companies will need to adapt as we move towards all-electric vehicles. Personally, I think that's a long, long way off. Hybrid vehicles (which are a ways away from a plug in electric) are still around 2% of US new vehicle sales (some foreign markets are higher) - it will no doubt continue to grow, though. Even fully electric nameplates like Tesla will need to make some changes, as once everyone offers a decent plug in electric, commanding as large a premium for theirs will be more difficult.

 

Subaru will figure out something, just as other manufacturers will. AWD may still be their thing, as it's unlikely that the landscape will change much from now - most nameplates offer AWD versions of popular models now - no reason to think that will change - but adding additional DC motors to drive all 4 wheels adds to cost, so I am sure AWD will remain an option, rather than being standard... who knows.

 

The biggest issue to me looking at plug ins is the range problem, and battery cost - I think the future is still in something where you can add fuel in a hurry, such as a fuel cell based electric - or maybe even things like flow batteries, where you could still have a "refueling station" but instead of adding gas, you would be replenishing electrolyte... who knows.

[JmP6889928]

Consider a couple of things:

 

1. Who, at least in the US, are the ones that are always pushing for this to happen? Of course, the People's Republic of California, and what do you read about every summer in California in the news? Rolling brownouts due to not enough power being available on their existing power grids. Because of this, California, in their infinite stupidity and inability to control their own power needs, has to purchase power from Nevada and other states because they can't generate enough to even come close to supplying all their own narcissistic needs. So.....with that being said, let's use a nice round number like, say, 10 million. Pull 10 million fossil fuel vehicles off the road and let's plug them in at night so we can have COMPLETE GRID FAILURE. Again stupidity at it's finest here as they can't seem to understand that their own moronic beliefs that electric cars will be sooo much more efficient, and then who will be the first to bitch about the failures? California, of course.

 

2. Electric cars, if built correctly, will be quicker, quieter, and stronger due the inherent advantages of unlimited powerband, BUT, the thing no one seems to think about, again, due to the stupidity of shortsightedness and not understanding all of the ramifications of what electric means, is where to dispose of the used up batteries once these cars begin to fail, crash, run out of life span, and also when they need to be repaired along the way. The repairs alone are so incredibly costly and require such specialized tools and equipment, there will not be many places that are able to even work on them in just about any form. Ask someone you know who is a technician at Toyota about working a Prius and see the reaction you get.

 

The general public knows so little about how cars work, that they believe the spew offered by idiots like AlGore and his cronies and the absolute fallacy of the so-called global warming/climate change claims. As we are inhabitants of this planet, no matter what we do, we are not capable of harming this planet. If you look at the fact that we could put every single person in the USA in Texas and we could all live there, which means that the entire rest of the country would have no inhabitants, it shows that the actual square mileage of our entire country has very little occupation.

 

Couple this with other continents (Australia, Africa, all of Asia, South America, Canada, Russia, Europe, and the Polar caps) who also have very sparse population numbers versus square mileage of available land. Add the fact that about 75% of the planet is covered in water/ice, we as a "population" are such a flyspeck in the realm of the entire square mileage of the whole planet, this bullshit CNN, PMSNBC, NYT, LAT, and the rest of the kool-aid drinking liberal jackasses that claim to be reporters hurl out every day, it's simply not a possibility we can hurt it with fossil fuel.

 

Now, we could certainly run out of fossil fuel in the next, say 300-400 years, but there are such huge deposits of natural gas, I look for a lot more vehicles to run on CNG and there will be a lot more places to fill up vehicles. Cleaner, cheaper, available, and easier mechanically on engines, this is where the future should be, but with morons in charge, I don't know if we'll ever get there.

 

OK...done with my rant. Let the climate changers begin their moronic flame jobs, but if you're one of them, you have nothing you can actually base your claims on and you know it to be true.

[Tronic]

Consider a couple of things:

 

I look for a lot more vehicles to run on CNG and there will be a lot more places to fill up vehicles. Cleaner, cheaper, available, and easier mechanically on engines, this is where the future should be, but with morons in charge, I don't know if we'll ever get there.

 

.

 

We have alot of CNG and LPG so we tried running motors on that stuff years ago in the likes of high milage cars like Taxi's. It was a failure.

 

The problem is it needs a specialized engine, not one converted from Petrol.

 

Also what you inevitably get, as was the case for diesel that started really really cheap and ended up a similar price to petrol and it also has a road tax over here thats not on petrol cars.

 

I can see it already, you move to electric and then they start screwing you with special power charges and before you know it, electric is no cheaper to run.

[Brady]

The future I see:

 

98% of the population won't give a shit as long as they see little Carter's soccer game and get to work not late enough for their boss to notice. They will buy the vehicles (or subscriptions to some sort of self-driving service) and Subaru's profits will continue to soar.

 

People on car forums, including this one, will continue to bitch and moan, insisting that Subaru is, like, 6 months away from bankruptcy because "they don't understand what consumers want"

[Tronic]

We are actually posting here in the very hope that someone at Subaru is reading this.

 

Its actually pretty clear what Subaru enthusiasts want if you surf the net.

 

What the enthusiasts are saying is that its a dumb move to completely get rid of a performance car in the Subaru lineup.

 

Subaru are not 6 months away from bankruptcy, they were at one point in time but were saved by the very cars they offer now.

 

I don't care about the 98% of the population that are happy to drive boring SUV's, but they are probably funding the performance end of the Subaru lineup so good on them !

 

There is definitely a market segment over here at about the $75K price point. Since the Ford Mustang came out over here in RHD, the sales have taken off big time. The Ford is not my kind of car but for pure power and the fact that they do look good, they have nailed it.

 

Its a no brainer that Subaru keep making the WRX and the STi in a format that car enthusiasts want or they are simply going to buy something else.

[desrosiersmatt]

Electric vehicles will fizzle once Elon goes to mars.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NSFW]

Its a no brainer that Subaru keep making the WRX and the STi in a format that car enthusiasts want or they are simply going to buy something else.

 

And I wonder how many WRX/STI owners end up buying Foresters and Outbacks later on in life.

 

Kind of like McDonald's getting kids excited about Happy Meals, you know?

 

Also, a bold prediction: instead of calling it "Symmetrical All Wheel Drive" they will start calling it "E-Symmetrical All Wheel Drive." Boom, problem solved! You heard it here first.

[ehsnils]

Time will tell what namings that will be used.

 

 

And some changes will happen faster than other. It's just that we are used to see Teslas today, then we have the BMW i3/i8 that are sailing up. The rest are slowly following and are careful to not shock the consumers with radical changes to avoid losing customers. New models attracts new customers, but when the customers age they tend to stay with the things they are used to.

 

 

This means that a sporty car with decent performance but limited space attracts new buyers and those that want a second vehicle. That's where the STi and the BRZ are - lures for new customers. Not everyone that visits the dealer will buy one but they may take a look at the other models while they are there.

[JmP6889928]

We have alot of CNG and LPG so we tried running motors on that stuff years ago in the likes of high milage cars like Taxi's. It was a failure.

 

The problem is it needs a specialized engine, not one converted from Petrol.

 

Also what you inevitably get, as was the case for diesel that started really really cheap and ended up a similar price to petrol and it also has a road tax over here thats not on petrol cars.

 

I can see it already, you move to electric and then they start screwing you with special power charges and before you know it, electric is no cheaper to run.

 

Many commercial vehicles here in the US are running on CNG now. Also a lot of delivery vehicles are using it because it so much less expensive.

[hadvw]

Consider a couple of things:

 

1. Who, at least in the US, are the ones that are always pushing for this to happen? Of course, the People's Republic of California, and what do you read about every summer in California in the news? Rolling brownouts due to not enough power being available on their existing power grids. Because of this, California, in their infinite stupidity and inability to control their own power needs, has to purchase power from Nevada and other states because they can't generate enough to even come close to supplying all their own narcissistic needs. So.....with that being said, let's use a nice round number like, say, 10 million. Pull 10 million fossil fuel vehicles off the road and let's plug them in at night so we can have COMPLETE GRID FAILURE. Again stupidity at it's finest here as they can't seem to understand that their own moronic beliefs that electric cars will be sooo much more efficient, and then who will be the first to bitch about the failures? California, of course.

 

 

Wow, strawman much? California also happens to have a great environment for solar panels and many employers provide charging stations during the day. I'm coming up on 50,000 kWh produced in 9 years. No electric car - still trying to find that perfect replacement for my '05 LGT - but am looking forward to lots of "free" electricity - the panels basically hit the break even point this year.

 

I've lived almost 15 years (give it another 6 months) in Silicon Valley. I've HEARD about active brownouts like 3 times maybe, and been affected zero times. My power went out in Ontario way more often than here. I've literally experienced a total of 3 or 4 power outages in 15 years, and that's always been due to equipment failure / accidents, not lack of power. In Ontario (right next door to Michigan), it was 3-4 times per winter. Not saying Michigan is as bad, but CA is NOT some 3rd world country.

 

You complain a lot about CA, but I see you're in MI. Maybe try walking a mile in someone's shoes before telling us how we feel.

[hadvw]

And I wonder how many WRX/STI owners end up buying Foresters and Outbacks later on in life.

 

 

Well, my mother-in-law just traded her '00 Caddy STS or whatever for a '10 Legacy 2.5i - does that count?

 

 

I've been stalling for 3-4 years on replacing the LGT because I can't find a car that has enough room, is reasonably reliable, not super expensive, and has a bit more power. And preferably a good AT. My 5EAT + Hexmods is decent. If it wasn't for the traffic I sometimes hit, I'd already have bought an STI, so people do grow up and go the opposite direction. I mean, sure, the wife has an '15 Town and Country. But there's no way I'd buy a Forester or Outback with the engine / transmission choices they have.

 

 

 

Looking at a Charger SRT / Caddy CTS-V or -Vsport or Stinger, maybe. S209 TBA on Jan14 is a dark horse - I may just decide to give a MT another go. Also outside shots: S3/Golf R, X3M40i / SQ5. Really outside shots: E43/63 / S4/ S6. I'd just prefer not to own an out-of-warranty german car. And some of those are beyond my budget, so I'd have to go used..

 

 

 

If I were to go electric (and I do debate it, when I think about the carbon footprint), I think maybe Model 3 performance, but I don't really like the car or the cult much. And none of the other electric vehicles that are affordable have any kind of "fun" performance.

[JmP6889928]

Wow, strawman much? California also happens to have a great environment for solar panels and many employers provide charging stations during the day. I'm coming up on 50,000 kWh produced in 9 years. No electric car - still trying to find that perfect replacement for my '05 LGT - but am looking forward to lots of "free" electricity - the panels basically hit the break even point this year.

 

I've lived almost 15 years (give it another 6 months) in Silicon Valley. I've HEARD about active brownouts like 3 times maybe, and been affected zero times. My power went out in Ontario way more often than here. I've literally experienced a total of 3 or 4 power outages in 15 years, and that's always been due to equipment failure / accidents, not lack of power. In Ontario (right next door to Michigan), it was 3-4 times per winter. Not saying Michigan is as bad, but CA is NOT some 3rd world country.

 

You complain a lot about CA, but I see you're in MI. Maybe try walking a mile in someone's shoes before telling us how we feel.

 

You don't have to like what I posted, but it's all the inevitable truth. Any and all automotive restrictions and regulations come from CA. It's been that way for many years, and will continue to be that way, and whatever you say about CA doesn't change that fact.

 

As far as solar panels, so what? CA isn't the only place solar panels work, and while it has taken you 15 years to "break even", I don't look at that as a terrific investment, especially when you're now about at the point of needing to do maintenance on the panels themselves.

 

I complain about CA-Yup. They offer complete stupidity as a government, as a state, and if you are there and proud of the people representing you, then you are not reading much.

 

Just wondering if you have a shit map. I understand those are pretty essential now just to keep your shoes clean.

[Brady]

You don't have to like what I posted, but it's all the inevitable truth. Any and all automotive restrictions and regulations come from CA. It's been that way for many years, and will continue to be that way, and whatever you say about CA doesn't change that fact.

 

As far as solar panels, so what? CA isn't the only place solar panels work, and while it has taken you 15 years to "break even", I don't look at that as a terrific investment, especially when you're now about at the point of needing to do maintenance on the panels themselves.

 

I complain about CA-Yup. They offer complete stupidity as a government, as a state, and if you are there and proud of the people representing you, then you are not reading much.

 

Just wondering if you have a shit map. I understand those are pretty essential now just to keep your shoes clean.

 

You're not very bright, and you can't read well. There isn't anything else you've said that makes it worth wasting additional keystrokes on.

 

[JmP6889928]

You're not very bright, and you can't read well. There isn't anything else you've said that makes it worth wasting additional keystrokes on.

 

 

LMAO. What a comeback! OUCH.

[Brady]

I could vomit meaningless words, like you did. Would that be a better comeback, sweetheart?

[JmP6889928]

I could vomit meaningless words, like you did. Would that be a better comeback, sweetheart?

 

Your words would be exactly that-meaningless. Believe what you will, but history backs me up.

 

Enjoy the rest of the homeless and dope smokers in Denver, as your mayor does. It's a shame too, because it USED to be such a nice city.

[Tronic]

And I wonder how many WRX/STI owners end up buying Foresters and Outbacks later on in life.

 

 

How much later in life ? Sure maybe when you have a family but then as you get older what happens is the kids leave and you have enough money to buy that car you always wanted.........

 

I now have enough money to buy just about anything. The problem then becomes how to justify spending all that on 4 wheels. You end up looking at the fun vs cost factor. Whats the point of spending $300K when $80K could end up being a better car more suited to the roads you drive on without the worries ?

 

The WRX and STi need alot more power and styling and then they will suck the life right out of the competition and from other brands currently not affected like Porsche. Those people that are not pretentious and buy on performance and just good old fun to drive would look at a Subaru.

[dgoodhue]

Consider a couple of things:

 

1. Who, at least in the US, are the ones that are always pushing for this to happen?

 

The demand for electric cars isn't just from CA, I actually know quite a few coworkers and friends who own or talking buy one in the future. At least the people I know well aren't environmentalist. In general they aren't car people.

 

2. Electric cars, if built correctly, will be quicker, quieter, and stronger due the inherent advantages of unlimited powerband, BUT, the thing no one seems to think about, again, due to the stupidity of shortsightedness and not understanding all of the ramifications of what electric means, is where to dispose of the used up batteries once these cars begin to fail, crash, run out of life span, and also when they need to be repaired along the way. The repairs alone are so incredibly costly and require such specialized tools and equipment, there will not be many places that are able to even work on them in just about any form. Ask someone you know who is a technician at Toyota about working a Prius and see the reaction you get.

 

The combustion engine doesn't exactly have a lot advantages either. Gasoline is explosive, oils that inevitable leak is contaminates the soil. I am sure they will figure it out. Electric motor are a lot more reliable than a gasoline powered engine. Industry will adjust to them for repair. The electric power infrastructure will adjust. I am an EE, and the demand power distribution has exploded the last 10 years, when I graduate 20 years ago, the demand and salaries were low, it has change quite a bit. For repairs, I heard the same thing 30 years ago with all the computer controls and fuel injection. Some of the old school mechanics will be left behind.

 

They believe the spew offered by idiots like AlGore and his cronies and the absolute fallacy of the so-called global warming/climate change claims. As we are inhabitants of this planet, no matter what we do, we are not capable of harming this planet.

 

The average temperate of the planet is well documented to be rising. My and your individual impact to air quality environment either way is insignificant. Whether you or not believe in 5B humans contribute to that is up to you.

 

Most people I talk to about electric cars aren't talking about the environment effects, they are talking about savings. FYI My dad installed solar electric panels in 2012 and was able to recoup his saving in 6 1/2 years with the rebates.

 

I look for a lot more vehicles to run on CNG and there will be a lot more places to fill up vehicles. Cleaner, cheaper, available, and easier mechanically on engines, this is where the future should be, but with morons in charge, I don't know if we'll ever get there.

 

CNG and LNG both have a lot of distribution obstacles and again electric motors are more reliable. IMO Those fuel sources would be better used for the production electricity.

 

It is likely in your best interest to root for alternatives to fossil fuels, it will lower the demand and reduce the price of crude oil.

[ammcinnis]

OK, it's time to dial back the rhetoric and personal insults. Technical discussion, including disagreement, is OK, but take the political posturing to the PA.

[JmP6889928]

The demand for electric cars isn't just from CA, I actually know quite a few coworkers and friends who own or talking buy one in the future. At least the people I know well aren't environmentalist. In general they aren't car people.

 

 

 

The combustion engine doesn't exactly have a lot advantages either. Gasoline is explosive, oils that inevitable leak is contaminates the soil. I am sure they will figure it out. Electric motor are a lot more reliable than a gasoline powered engine. Industry will adjust to them for repair. The electric power infrastructure will adjust. I am an EE, and the demand power distribution has exploded the last 10 years, when I graduate 20 years ago, the demand and salaries were low, it has change quite a bit. For repairs, I heard the same thing 30 years ago with all the computer controls and fuel injection. Some of the old school mechanics will be left behind.

 

 

 

The average temperate of the planet is well documented to be rising. My and your individual impact to air quality environment either way is insignificant. Whether you or not believe in 5B humans contribute to that is up to you.

 

Most people I talk to about electric cars aren't talking about the environment effects, they are talking about savings. FYI My dad installed solar electric panels in 2012 and was able to recoup his saving in 6 1/2 years with the rebates.

 

 

 

CNG and LNG both have a lot of distribution obstacles and again electric motors are more reliable. IMO Those fuel sources would be better used for the production electricity.

 

It is likely in your best interest to root for alternatives to fossil fuels, it will lower the demand and reduce the price of crude oil.

 

Excellent and intelligent debate. Your points are well taken and in regards to the solar panels, I do understand their benefits. I was just stating the fact that CA isn't the only place where they do work. Wind can also work in some places, but the cost is prohibitive seeing as how expensive the windmills are and the maintenance involved to keep them running. Just drive by a wind farm and count how many are not running-those need the maintenance and it's extremely expensive. Besides, they don't do anything to beautify the environment either, just like solar panels.

 

Regarding internal combustion engines, they are so incredibly efficient now (not necessarily in the US, but in other countries, where they don't suffer the same regulations we do here, they are achieving incredible MPG results) and they will continue to improve. The proven technology has shown itself in how long vehicles last now versus 40 years ago, both in the engines and drivetrains. The complications of some of the electrical redundancies are somewhat difficult, and it makes it hard on people to repair their own vehicles in some cases, but the common sense parts of these developments (not the driver interference add ons, as I like to call them), but VVT, turbos on smaller engines, more efficiency in the use of synthetic materials and oils, and better quality in tolerances, are proving themselves every day. Hydrogen shows promise, but again, it's a long term development.

 

Again, in regards to "global warming", this is something that has happened throughout the history of this planet as cycles, long before we, as humans, occupied anything. It's been proven time and time again through core samples in various parts of the world and as geologists study how the crust and mantle has been formed, they come to the same conclusions. The lunatics that claim the sea is rising obviously don't understand that water displaces the same space whether frozen or liquid, so those claims are nothing more than a way to rile up the public for their cause. If you don't agree, put ice and water in a glass and measure the level and then come back after the ice has melted and measure again. It's the same. I promise AlGore doesn't suffer for energy or heat in his own domain, but he's become rich on the unfounded fears he's generated.

 

As occupants, we are unable to cause any lasting damage simply because we don't occupy enough space to really do any harm.

[Tronic]

I would not argue that electric cars are more reliable. Electronics has been my life and battery technology is NOT as reliable as a tank of petrol and while the electric motor is quite reliable the power electronics required to control the motors is NOT.

 

Electric cars are still in there infancy and I'm happy for others to be the lab rats testing them. They sound great to anybody without a technical background who's main focus is the running costs.

 

Anyway the sales figures for all the major automotive manufacturers is out for 2018 and the numbers of new cars is down for the leading players like GM and Toyota BUT Subaru is actually UP so they must be doing something right.

 

Subaru sales rose 5.0% to 680,135 vehicles in 2018, up 16.7% from 2015, a big success against its big brethren.