Ok, I just have to ask...

[dgoodhue]

Cameras generally point at the back of cars because of privacy laws.

 

It actually depends on the state. Most states do use the rear license plate. A friend mine worked for many years developing for red light/speed camera systems company and know the state rules rally well. In the states that require a front picture of the driver and plate, the tickets are thrown out if the their is no plate. An offset plate isn't to going to fool a the system (and neither do the tinted license plate covers).

[dgoodhue]

The 4th gen f-body has a huge area where the dash/cowl/windshield stick far over the engine. It also only draws in cool air from below the front bumper as there are no cutouts in the bumpers for the radiator. The stock design (no cowl hood) traps tons of air in the engine compartment (actually the air has only one path to follow, under the car, which creates lift). A cowl hood alone accounts for at least a 10-20% reduction in running temps in the engine compartment side panels alone. I and a bunch of others have proven that (try putting an all aluminum racing radiator in a 4th gen and you will essentially cause engine compartment temps to increase instead of decrease and it will eventually cause an overheat condition with the A/C running on a supercharged/water aftercooled setup because it conducts far too much heat to the engine compartment itself. A cowl hood in that case causes an improvement, but is not a fix. In the case of that setup going to a stock radiator (with plastic ends and a smaller aluminum core) actually allows for more direction cooling with less heat soak to the compartment itself. The cowl hood with that does even more in regards to dropping temps. (as a side note, it is a "cheap hack" to remove the rear weatherstripping at the cowl panel to allow for a "poor mans cowl" that reduces engine bay temps by a good amount as well)

 

Oh, I might also add, adding a cowl allowed the car to create so much more downforce on my T/A that at speed my car actually sucks to the pavement. Before the cowl hood it did not do that.

 

The air going through the engine compartment through the back of cowl seem like it would produce an upward to force, but I am not going to pretend to know the aerodynamics of 4th Gen F-body.

 

Its seem like in extreme case it has some function, much like maybe 1% of the offset plate are functional on Subaru with those with a FMIC. Probably only 1% of the cowl hood on most cars a provide function that is even measurable difference of performance much like the ram air gimmicks.

 

If you getting work up about a license plate relocation that is easily reversible and done for aesthetics, you probably not going to fit in well many of the other appearance mods done on around the Subaru world. I may not agree with what everyone has or does to their Subaru, even some of the fads are embarrassing, but I don't voice negative opinion of what they do. I can't imagine that you agree with what everyone does in 4th Gen F-Body community either.

[MilesA]

...Sorry to say, but there needs to be a LOT more organization to these kinds of forums. More or less a bit more effort to compile useful information, update older information, and in general make this all more useful for ANYONE interested in being involved...In the past you had forums that people took passion with and did all I described and they were useful in many many ways...

I think this is good criticism, can you make it constructive? How would you improve the forum as it stands now? What are some relevant examples where you feel this problem has been handled well?

[GTEASER]

Organizing the forum better is a losing battle. Believe me, I've been battling it for years now. If everyone followed the rules, strictly, and common sense with a sense of meaningful contribution, then organization would be much easier. But sadly, the way society is going, the trend is that people feel rules don't apply to them, so therefore rules have no meaning when it comes to archiving and creating meaningful repositories of information for future users. If I had $5 for every person that came here, announced that they did a mod, and then disappeared, never memorializing their effort and success, I'd be a fat from all the pizza I could buy. There are some that make good, detailed write-ups, and I try my best to link to them in one of the Sticky threads, but for the most part, the newer generation isn't even adept at database searching, so I don't expect much from them in the way of contribution. They suck from the community knowledge and don't add anything to it. Unfortunately.

[A_A_ron]

Database searching? You mean I can query the lgt forum?

 

SELECT * FROM legacygt.fifth_gen_BMBR

WHERE post_dt = today()

AND post_title LIKE '%Engine Mount%'

[GTEASER]

Go home Jared, don't piss me off today.

 

[TheBeast]

See, GTeaser gets it. And I am sure plenty of you understand that it is an entire clusterf*ck more than anything trying to find something...

 

For example, the stereo wiring and audio stuff. THAT information should be gospel, but it is not. It is spread out all over the place, and I will say that the one person that *should* organize it is more interested in selling his own wares. Nice guy, truly helpful, but not in the way that allows others to know and understand and not need to buy stuff from him. And some of the information that he has provided is flat out wrong. Wiring pinouts being different between years, polarities being backwards from what he says, etc.

 

Again, if you buy from him I am sure you get what you need and it works. But he has a vested interest in keeping things "obscure" and a PITA to find. I just started from scratch with the FSMs and derived my own information. If I would have taken that approach to begin with, I would have saved at least 10 hours of wading through info that really didn't help entirely. He also should know absolutes at this point (especially since you can glean that much from the FSMs) and yet posts in a manner where he won't give truly useful exacting information (which is all done to sell his wares, yeah, yeah, I get the marketing slant).

 

That is just one example and primarily what I am basing some of this off of. And I agree with GTeaser, that people REALLY need to get the idea that more information is always better than less. So many posts, as he stated, are about "look what I did!" as an ego-stroke with no info of who/what/where/how much and basically almost done in a childish "look what I have that you don't" purposed manner.

 

I mean even info about fabbed mods are woefully missing primary details. And trust me, I understand not designing and just fabbing for a given purpose and need. But even those should have more details.

 

Then again, you do have some mods posts around here that are great, excellent pictures and complete parts lists down to mundane stuff (like bolt and washer specifics).

 

Oh, in regards to pictures, do you guys know that like 2/3 of the forum seems to have pictures that are not viewable? Kinda takes all the steam out of finding something your interested in, especially if people don't post info because they expect the picture to do all the talking.

 

And, yes I FULLY agree that ALL the various makes/models (including 4th-gen f-bodies) have a TON of ignorant fad stuff that just weakens the premise of what those cars are capable of being.

 

Sorry if things seemed like I was just bagging on Subbies in general. I was not. I just find that some of that stuff has kept others from truly appreciating what Subarus have to offer. I love my 2010 Legacy 2.5i Premium. It rides great, has more than enough power and in general has nice aesthetics. I think they are mostly overlooked, primarily because of certain stigmas that some of the fad stuff does not help in the least. I prefer a soft luxury ride at this point much more than I look for tight and precise handling. I don't want old-school caddy boat-like manners, but the suppleness of the early 5th gen Legacys is awesome. And, honestly, with the CVT the damn car flys. I find I am speeding more than not because of the CVT, since it doesn't load the engine like most normal automatics.

 

I apologize if I got some guys panties in a twist bagging on a fad mod. I just started noticing it more and more in public...

[GTEASER]

Ah...the non viewable pictures. We can thank PhotoBucket and their greed for that. On the other hand, part of the responsibility also falls on members that choose to be lazy and link their photos from outside archives (over which they have no real control) rather than taking a moment to actually upload the pics to the forum server, where they will be archived in perpetuity as long as this irreplaceable resource for Subaru enthusiasts is active.

[snm95ls]

Ah...the non viewable pictures. We can thank PhotoBucket and their greed for that. On the other hand, part of the responsibility also falls on members that choose to be lazy and link their photos from outside archives (over which they have no real control) rather than taking a moment to actually upload the pics to the forum server, where they will be archived in perpetuity as long as this irreplaceable resource for Subaru enthusiasts is active.

 

I never really understood the appeal of Photobucket. It's always been a pile of garbage IMO.

 

Agreed about the responsibility falling on the members. IF you are making a tech post, it seems pretty logical that you might want to host the pictures on the forum server, but then again it seemed like third party hosting sites were a pretty safe bet.

 

The huge number of posts on every forum that I visit with broken images thanks to Photobucket is damn near infuriating at times as there are some old threads that had useful information whether it be totally tech related or not. It would have been nice if they would have done with imageshack did way back in the day and cut off future free hosting rather than block all hosted images. It is what it is though I guess.

 

OP, did you make an account to just complain about license plate relocation and state your opinion of function and form?

[TheBeast]

No, I have asked other questions and participated in other threads.

 

I just got annoyed with something I just noticed and inquired.

[snm95ls]

No, I have asked other questions and participated in other threads.

 

I just got annoyed with something I just noticed and inquired.

 

Okay. Just checking. Are you a Legacy or LGT owner or enthusiast?

 

Why does something as trivial as license plate location annoy you? That just seems petty to be honest. It's not a dig at you, I just don't understand where you are coming from.

 

Hell, I am very much a form over function kinda guys myself most of the time, but to get annoyed by something this trivial, IMO, just seems a bit odd.

 

At the end of the day, the old cliche saying still applies. Different strokes for different folks.

 

Also, what's the story with your 220 MPH F-body? (if I read that correctly)

[FLlegacy]

If you were talking about svxdc I think you should research more before badmouthing him, he doesn't make these harnesses for a living he does it for Subaru enthusiasts. It used to be Subaru would stick to a stereo model for a very very long time, and even when they did change it, the pinout was the same. The 5th gen has way too many headunit models even though they are visually identical, and the harness has seemed to change with each iteration. I think maybe you should learn to appreciate the good. We all mostly do what we do to contribute here and grow our knowledge base as best we can.

[TheBeast]

Ok...

 

I have a 2010 Legacy 2.5i Premium... Just picked it up at the end of August with only 14,800 miles on it. Honestly with as clean as the door jambs and everything else was I don't think it was driven in winter much, if at all... Same goes with rain.

 

In regards to forums, This seems to be the only Legacy specific forum out there. There is the other, bigger, Subaru forum, but it only has a legacy section, thus my being here. And I might add that site is even worse in regards to useable info being spread all over the place.

 

In regards to the Trans-Am, I have actually had it to between 229-232mph. That was based off RPMs and gear ratio. The stock speedo pegs at 160mph.

 

That car has been a work of passion. Over 5000 hours involved in it. Well over 6 figures have been spent, not including the 5-figure interior that my wife gave me as a 10th-year anniversary present (and that was all interior stitchwork and stereo mounting as such, as I already sound deadened the car myself, ran all the wiring myself, provided all the amplifiers/speakers/processors/crossovers/etc and even all the automation stuff myself before the interior was redone). The stereo is all balanced line-driver connected ESX Quantum amplifiers along with Seas/Scan-Speak/TC Sounds/Vifa/Peerless drivers, Alpine source and processing units, etc. 3 kinds of leather and 2 colors of Alcantera suede were used on the interior and all interior panels are stitched and fitted properly (took them 2-3+ times per panel to get them right without excess wrinkles and to make them proper, as I am quite particular about aesthetics). I even have a slot in the back with a plug that can be pulled so I can store my t-tops when I am driving around without it being in the way of the audio system. Quite a feat when you have 4 large amplifiers, an extra battery, rear air compressor and tank, and a ton of extra electronics mounted back there. Custom gauges inside the cluster cowl, relocated HVAC controls to the glove compartment, custom center channel installed in the center of the top of the dash that required the windshield to be removed to accomplish. Sound deadening is so complete that the only noise you hear outside the car with the stereo turned up is from the center channel since it is open to the venting in the cowl.

 

It is a 383, 10.44:1 compression with a Vortech cog-driven T-Trim and air-water aftercooler. It is running 92lb injectors @ 65psi fuel pressure (which goes up with boost as the regulator is boost referenced) with about 14#s max boost. It produces 792rwhp through a T56 6-speed and a Strange S60 rear end with 3.55 rear gears (the rear has a power-lok diff which has been beefed up to handle the torque). Fuel feed is via -10an fuel line and return is -6an. Oh, forgot to mention the progressive nitrous system that can add anywhere from 60-350hp (it is programmable with external switching for various modes, tied into the wideband O2s in the car to automatically deal with enrichment and safe running). Honestly, to use the nitrous I need full slicks, since on drag radials at 3400rpm in 5th gear it causes the rear-end to break free well into triple digits. I added the nitrous in case I ever got serious about drag racing once more, but I then ended up doing the interior and drag racing kinda lost its luster.

 

Wheels are 17x11 rear with 315 drag radials along with 17x9.5 front with 275 nitto race tires. Those will be swapped next year for Yokohama R888s rear and R1R fronts (to match the same setup I have on my Camaro z28 convertible, which is also 383, 10.38:1cr, Vortech SQ S-Trim and aftercooler as well that puts down 638rwhp through a T56 6-speed and beefed up 10-bolt rear with 3.73 gears, which is "the wifes car").

 

Every detail has been attended to on the Trans-Am, including hand fabbed accessory bracket (I like the billet look) and a ton of smaller details most people don't do until you are at this power level (like full forced air fuel cooler, etc). Some of the automation stuff I added, for example, is a simple double toggle-switch in the ashtray location. One switch controls the nitrous system (not only on-off, but also purge, street/strip modes and launch control) and the other controls the line-lock, automatic exhaust control (open, closed, throttle/rpm-based, speed-based). A hidden switch allows me to switch the steering wheel controls from stereo use, to controlling the rear air system (on launch, with extreme traction, you need to stiffen the rear end to get the best launch, and at speed it automatically stiffens the rear to provide for proper aerodynamics because of excessive downforce on the rear end with the big rear wing these cars have, and the car, if setup right, will literally suck to the pavement).

 

The rear wing on these cars is not truly useful until well into the triple digits. It was well regarded as a "worthless factory wing" until it was proven that at speed, if you can keep the rear loaded high enough, it actually creates a ton of downforce. I personally drove with the windows down near 190mph and I was amazed at how little the rear hatch lifted because of it.

 

Oh, I might add, that the T/A has a 3" Borla exhaust as well as 1-3/4" mid-length headers, proving that long-tubes are not necessary at extremes. Oh, I also use only Earl's Pressure Master gaskets. They are the only ones that are reliable at such extreme temperatures and pressures.

 

I have had a total of 5 engines in the Trans-Am over the years. Each one needed to be upgraded because I either sold the last one, or broke it with too much power. I have connecting rods that are bent on all three axis simultaneously (you can't get much closer to catastrophic failure than that). I have been through plenty of pistons. I run heads I have ported myself, cams I designed and have had cut to my specs and have built over 50 engines for myself, friends and clients. It all comes down to details, and they all add up once you know what you are doing.

 

The Camaro convertible got the benefit of all the hard work done on the T/A over the years. That was a "once and done" type setup, actually done a lot cheaper. I think I only have about $27k outside of the price of the car into it. It has a MSD voltage blaster with a 340lph fuel pump and stock lines. But it got the rest of the goodies as well (including a trac-link setup). Honestly the Camaro, because it is a ragtop, is probably a little more fun to drive since it is easy to drift it and drifting a car with the top down is totally different than with a t-top or hard top car.

 

About the only upgrade I would ever do to the either car is a Watts-link rear setup. Fays2 makes a nice one, but I have to worry about fitment on both cars, as the S60 rear end is much bigger than stock, and the beefed up stock rear end has a cover with tension-bars on it to add strength that might get in the way.

[TheBeast]

If you were talking about xxxxx I think you should research more before badmouthing him, he doesn't make these harnesses for a living he does it for Subaru enthusiasts. It used to be Subaru would stick to a stereo model for a very very long time, and even when they did change it, the pinout was the same. The 5th gen has way too many headunit models even though they are visually identical, and the harness has seemed to change with each iteration. I think maybe you should learn to appreciate the good. We all mostly do what we do to contribute here and grow our knowledge base as best we can.

 

Honestly, there is ZERO reason there isn't a reference compendium of pinouts and information. NO REASON AT ALL.

 

The only reason people don't do that is so they can sell what they need to.

 

I never said he was in business, and I am not badmouthing him. I am stating a fact of the lack of decent compiled information on any of the forums he frequents.

 

It is awesome he sources the pins and connectors and makes the harnesses. There are a lot of us that don't need any of that and just want information. Plain and simple, the information is too spread out and too cryptic to be useful. Especially when you are talking newer models (2010-up).

 

I even told him as much. And I understand where he is coming from. But it does not change the fact that some of the information out there is wrong. If his website was a proper reference, I would have most certainly spent my money with him (for all the harnesses I could have used, which would have pushed back my timetable, but who cares if someone else does all the work) to support him in his endeavors (and, yes, I did buy a given product from him as well, so I am a customer too), but without that and with needing to produce my own set of pinouts to do the conversion, I ended up sourcing most things from a source that could get me the parts needed within my timeframe.

 

That is why I didn't name names (and it would probably be better to edit out his name from your post to keep it that way). I truly hope he does well, jsut that, for someone like me, the information provided is far from complete and useful.

[FLlegacy]

You're saying that like noone would ever have figured it out, he is the only guy doing harnesses for these cars, the only one. So feel free to step off your high horse before you fall off.

[dgoodhue]

Oh, in regards to pictures, do you guys know that like 2/3 of the forum seems to have pictures that are not viewable?

 

I am guess you haven't searched on your F-body forums recently. Most forum these day are affect by Photobucket policy changes and almost no one is paying the $400 yearly fee.

 

I never really understood the appeal of Photobucket. It's always been a pile of garbage IMO.

 

Before the 3rd party ransomware, Photobucket had become a ad traffic heavy, but it wasn't always that way. I have used for Photobucket for at least 12 years. 12 years ago no forum that I used was hosting pictures. I had set my phone to back up my pictures on Photobucket, so it was the convenient way to link picture, plus the picture could be higher resolution on photobucket. This was an easier alternative to currently what I have to do now. Current on my iphone6, I have email the picture to myself to reduce the picture size, save it to my phone or computer and then upload it.

[dgoodhue]

Prior to GTEASER being a moderator of this section (I think that was around 2014, but I could be wrong), the 5th Gen didn't have a 5 gen owner moderator to help organize the section. The 5th Gen was a black sheep in the eye of many 4th Gen owners and the forum was 4th Gen GT owner centric. Basically the 5th Gen forum was disorganized most of the time while it was in production. The organization of the sticky's in this forum is drastically better than the forum used to be. I purchased my GT a few months ago and I was surprised at how useful the sticky have been even though I have been around here for many years.

 

The 5th Gen GT has really low production with less than 2000 over 3 production years. GM probably mad more 4th Gen F-bodies in one month than the 5th Gen LGT. Over 90% of the 5th Gen are 2.5i owners but they aren't all that active (I used to be 2.5i myself) and their really aren't many performance mods for them either. 5th Gen 3.6R ownership is pretty low as well. We just don't have the numbers and someone has to put the time organize it. Someone has to put the time in and it didn't start as an organize forum. This forum likely has a slower traffic than you are used to and therefore goes at a slower pace. Some us are accomplished DIYer like you are, but they are more low key about their accomplishments.

 

For the audio forum, I agree that its not the most organized. The person that does sell harness is very knowledgeable and does actually share his knowledge. Its up to him whether or not he was want to organize post. At least to me it sure seems like many owners 'use' the car audio section to achieve their goals, and then disappear and don't contribute to audio forum after that.

[dgoodhue]

Ok...

 

I have a 2010 Legacy 2.5i Premium... Just picked it up at the end of August with only 14,800 miles on it. Honestly with as clean as the door jambs and everything else was I don't think it was driven in winter much, if at all... Same goes with rain.

 

In regards to forums, This seems to be the only Legacy specific forum out there. There is the other, bigger, Subaru forum, but it only has a legacy section, thus my being here. And I might add that site is even worse in regards to useable info being spread all over the place.

 

In regards to the Trans-Am, I have actually had it to between 229-232mph. That was based off RPMs and gear ratio. The stock speedo pegs at 160mph.

 

That car has been a work of passion. Over 5000 hours involved in it. Well over 6 figures have been spent, not including the 5-figure interior that my wife gave me as a 10th-year anniversary present (and that was all interior stitchwork and stereo mounting as such, as I already sound deadened the car myself, ran all the wiring myself, provided all the amplifiers/speakers/processors/crossovers/etc and even all teh automation stuff myself before the interior was redone). The stereo is all balanced line-driver connected ESX Quantum amplifiers along with Seas/Scan-Speak/TC Sounds/Vifa/Peerless drivers, Alpine source and processing units, etc. 3 kinds of leather and 2 colors of Alcantera suede were used on the interior and all interior panels are stitched and fitted properly (took them 2-3+ times per panel to get them right without excess wrinkles and to make them proper, as I am quite particular about asthetics). I even have a slot in teh back to pull the plug out and store my t-tops when I am driving around without it being in teh way of the audio system. Quite a feat when you have 4 large amplifiers, an extra battery, rear air compressor and tank, and a ton of extra electronics mounted back there. Custom gauges inside the cluster cowl, relocated HVAC controls to the glove compartment, custom center channel installed in the center of the top of the dash that required the windshield to be removed to accomplish. Sound deadening is so complete that the only noise you hear outside the car with the stereo turned up is from the center channel since it is open to the venting in the cowl.

 

It is a 383, 10.44:1 compression with a Vortech cog-driven T-Trim and air-water aftercooler. It is running 92lb injectors @ 65psi fuel pressure (which goes up with boost as the regulator is boost referenced) with about 14#s max boost. It produces 792rwhp through a T56 6-speed and a Strange S60 rear end with 3.55 rear gears (the rear has a power-lok diff which has been beefed up to handle the torque). Fuel feed is via -10an fuel line and return is -6an. Oh, forgot to mention the progressive nitrous system that can add anywhere from 60-350hp (it is programmable with external switching for various modes, tied into the wideband O2s in the car to automatically deal with enrichment and safe running). Honestly, to use the nitrous I need full slicks, since on drag radials at 3400rpm in 5th gear it causes the rear-end to brake free well into triple digits. I added the nitrous in case I ever got serious about drag racing once more, but I then ended up doing the interior and drag racing kinda lost its luster.

 

Wheels are 17x11 rear with 315 drag radials along with 17x9.5 front with 275 nitto race tires. Those will be swapped next year for Yokohama R888s rear and R1R fronts (to match the same setup I have on my Camaro z28 convertible, which is also 383, 10.38:1cr, Vortech SQ S-Trim and aftercooler as well that puts down 638rwhp through a T56 6-speed and beefed up 10-bolt rear with 3.73 gears, which is "the wifes car").

 

Every detail has been attended to on the Trans-Am, including hand fabbed accessory bracket (I like the billet look) and a ton of smaller details most people don't do until you are at this power level (like full forced air fuel cooler, etc). Some of the automation stuff I added, for example, is a simple double toggle-switch in the ashtray location. One switch controls the nitrous system (not only on-off, but also purge, street/strip modes and launch control) and the other controls the line-lock, automatic exhaust control (open, closed, throttle/rpm-based, speed-based). A hidden switch allows me to switch the steering wheel controls from stereo use, to controlling the rear air system (on launch, with extreme traction, you need to stiffen the rear end to get the best launch, and at speed it automatically stiffens the rear to provide for proper aerodynamics because of excessive downforce on the rear end with the big rear wing these cars have, and the car, if setup right, will literally suck to the pavement).

 

The rear wing on these cars is not truly useful until well into the triple digits. It was well regarded as a "worthless factory wing" until it was proven that at speed, if you can keep the rear loaded high enough, it actually creates a ton of downforce. I personally drove with the windows down near 190mph and I was amazed at how little the rear hatch lifted because of it.

 

Oh, I might add, that the T/A has a 3" Borla exhaust as well as 1-3/4" mid-length headers, proving that long-tubes are not necessary at extremes. Oh, I also use only Earl's Pressure Master gaskets. They are the only ones that are reliable at such extreme temperatures and pressures.

 

I have had a total of 5 engines in the Trans-Am over the years. Each one needed to be upgraded because I either sold the last one, or broke it with too much power. I have connecting rods that are bent on all three axis simultaneously (you can't get much closer to catastrophic failure than that). I have been through plenty of pistons. I run heads I have ported myself, cams I designed and have had cut to my specs and have built over 50 engines for myself, friends and clients. It all comes down to details, and they all add up once you know what you are doing.

 

The Camaro convertible got the benefit of all the hard work done on the T/A over the years. That was a "once and done" type setup, actually done a lot cheaper. I think I only have about $27k outside of the price of the car into it. It has a MSD voltage blaster with a 340lph fuel pump and stock lines. But it got the rest of the goodies as well (including a trac-link setup). Honestly the Camaro, because it is a ragtop, is probably a little more fun to drive since it is easy to drift it and drifting a car with the top down is totally different than with a t-top or hard top car.

 

About the only upgrade I would ever do to the either car is a Watts-link rear setup. Fays2 makes a nice one, but I have to worry about fitment on both cars, as the S60 rear end is much bigger than stock, and the beefed up stock rear end has a cover with tension-bars on it to add strength that might get in the way.

 

I am guessing those both are SBC LT1 4th Gen's.

[TheBeast]

I am guessing those both are SBC LT1 4th Gen's.

 

Yes, they both are. The LT1 was the first major departure from the SBC design in that it was reverse-cooled, ie, the heads got the coolant first, then the block. This allowed for much more aggressive timing. It also changed things quite a bit, in that they went to extremely short intake runners. The LT1 was also the final SBC evolution to be built as they transitioned to the LSx platform 5 years after it was introduced.

[TheBeast]

I have to ask, why was the 5th gen Legacy a black sheep?

 

I have only driven 5th and 6th gen Legacys/Outbacks. And, honestly, the 5th gen early Legacy Premium drives more like a 6th gen high-end Outback than anything else. The late 5th gen Legacy went to more of a sport suspension and I don't like the ride nearly as much as mine.

[MilesA]

I have to ask, why was the 5th gen Legacy a black sheep?

Subaru moved away from a lot of their traditional design ideas in an attempt to make the Legacy appeal to a more mainstream customer base.

 

Many 4th gen people wanted the 5th generation to be like a Japanese Audi. Instead, we got an AWD Toyota Camry.

[TheBeast]

I would not put it in that category. I hate the Toyota Camry.

 

Honestly, I think them going to more of a "luxery" type ride and feel is exactly what would draw more to the Legacy.

 

The Outback always had a "off-road" moniker. The new ones are so big overall they might as well be considered mini-SUVs.

 

Personally, I am done with my desire for SUVs... I am firmly in the luxury car place. I have a large Explorer custom conversion high-top van that is used for the family (5 kids), and once the middle seats are out it is big enough for just about anything I need to haul. As the kids are getting older I am considering getting rid of it in the next year or two and might end up with a SUV then, or even a full size pickup truck...

 

But for now I am more than happy with the Legacy and the Lincoln MKS as my main cars.

[MilesA]

I would not put it in that category. I hate the Toyota Camry...

Whatever you like, of course.

 

The operative words for me are too big, too bloated, and too bland. I want to feel engaged in the driving experience, not isolated from it in a metal and glass cocoon.

[BDII]

I am guess you haven't searched on your F-body forums recently. Most forum these day are affect by Photobucket policy changes and almost no one is paying the $400 yearly fee.

 

 

 

Before the 3rd party ransomware, Photobucket had become a ad traffic heavy, but it wasn't always that way. I have used for Photobucket for at least 12 years. 12 years ago no forum that I used was hosting pictures. I had set my phone to back up my pictures on Photobucket, so it was the convenient way to link picture, plus the picture could be higher resolution on photobucket. This was an easier alternative to currently what I have to do now. Current on my iphone6, I have email the picture to myself to reduce the picture size, save it to my phone or computer and then upload it.

Pro-tip; screen shot the picture then crop it.

 

You're welcome.

[MilesA]

I would not put it in that category. I hate the Toyota Camry...

 

Lots of people seem to love the Camry, if you have a look at the sales chart. It's been the best selling car in America for many years.

 

Subaru was interesting to me because they were different. They had quirky cars and did things their own way. They had some cars that appealed to the enthusiast with turbo boxer engines, manual transmissions, good handling, good steering feel and decent brake feel.

 

So, as an enthusiast I was disappointed by Subaru's decision to mainstream their cars. Mainstreaming hasn't even worked for them in terms of Legacy sales. They're selling lots more Outbacks, Foresters and Crosstreks, but not significantly more Legacies.

 

Year	Subaru Legacy U.S. Sales

2002  85,359

2003  79,839

2004  89,453

2005  87,788

2006  84,442

2007  78,428

2008  66,876

2009  30,974

2010  38,725

2011  42,401

2012  47,127

2013  42,291

2014  52,270

2015  60,447

2016  65,306