Spooky handling experience (dreaded understeer?)

[riscy]

Maybe there is a more appropriate location for this post, but if some of you real driving pros could respond I'd appreciate it!

 

My history of car ownership/drivership, for the most part, consists of rear-drive cars that predictably oversteer or crappy FWD cars that understeer by pushing the front wheels when driven too hard. I don't have a lot of serious track experience, but I've always thought I am a pretty damn good street driver.

 

Today I had an experience with my LGT that was new and kinda scary.

 

I turned hard left up a curvy commercial driveway leading to a parking lot. The drive curved left and was, I'd say, neutral to slightly positive camber. I grabbed second into a nicely sweeping curve and was doing about 50 when things got weird.

 

I've admired my LGT for always breaking loose all 4 tires at once and going into a nice predictable 4-wheel drift at the limit. That happened today -- started drifting to the right, outside of the curve -- so I didn't panic. I was getting a little wide and the tires refused to bite, so I let off the gas and gave the steering a nudge to the left. That's when things got scary.

 

I expected the rear end to come around counter-clockwise a little bit, tightening my turn and shedding speed at the same time. That's not what happened, though.

 

First, I didn't shed any speed at all. It was like I'd never let off the gas, or as though I were on ice (the pavement was clean, warm and dry). I just kept drifting wider to the right. Then, as I corrected left, the rear end starts sliding left. And I don't mean a little -- the darn thing got almost sideways! At this point I am now drifting into the oncoming lanes (no one there or else I wouldn't even have tried my little stunt). Finally, I lose enough speed (tires howling like a banshee!), I bring the car around, get back in my lane, and everything is fine.

 

Any opinions? Is this the dreaded understeer at work? Was the not-slowing-down thing just crappy stock tires and suspension or could the electronic throttle have been partly to blame (i.e. no engine-brake)? Is this even physically possible? Turning left, centrifugal force should push me right, towards the outside of the curve. I'm stumped!

 

I'm used to correcting things like this by relying on throttle and/or steering-induced oversteer. Will the iON springs (I'm in GB #3) and some sway bars and new tires help? Am I crazy?

 

Thanks for reading all this!

[melayout]

so I let off the gas and gave the steering a nudge to the left.

 

That's your problem, lift off understeer + AWD is a different beast and example http://www.corvettekillstories.com/photogallery/albums/JBSBLOWNC5/Pics/wrxcrash.wmv .

[mwiener2]

Here's your problem:

 

New to AWD and RE92's

 

 

The understeer is not dreaded...it's expected. counter with more gas, not less

[rony]

Here's your problem:

 

New to AWD and RE92's

 

 

The understeer is not dreaded...it's expected. counter with more gas, not less

 

/nod

[RobY]

Actually... Its supposed to act this way...

 

Throttle lift oversteer, throttle on understeer.

 

Unless you were going WAY to fast for the turn at which point all cars will understeer. AWD dosent mean you can defy one of newtons laws of physics.

 

"Objects in motion will continue to stay in its path of motion unless acted upon by another force"

 

In otherwords you can have the most neutral car in the world with the best handling dynamics known to man... but if you take a 30 mph corner at 80 mph only god can help you.

[GeorgeB]

Here's your problem:

 

New to AWD and RE92's

 

 

The understeer is not dreaded...it's expected. counter with more gas, not less

 

i agree

 

never leave your foot off the gas pedal AWD is your friend

[GardenWeasel]

"I turned hard left up a curvy commercial driveway leading to a parking lot....

 

...At this point I am now drifting into the oncoming lanes (no one there or else I wouldn't even have tried my little stunt). Finally, I lose enough speed (tires howling like a banshee!), I bring the car around, get back in my lane, and everything is fine.

 

Any opinions? "

 

Those multi-lane driveways can be tricky.

[jerami1981]

like others have already said and i have experienced first hand, just get a higher gear if possible and keep on trucking on the gas..that will help reduce wheelspin and start getting the front end pulling..but as also have been said, too much speed is too much speed.

[from the helm]

Why would you need to dial in more steering if you are under acceleration and pushing to the outside of the turn? The front tires are overloaded from acceleration and you have the car sliding to the outside understeering some already. If you put in more lock at that point you are just making them slide more.

Next time try to just feather the throttle and don't turn in any more, the rear tires will unload a little, the car will rotate and your line will tighten.

 

If anyone watched that WRX video, that driver was ham fisted to an extreme, his turn rate was all over the place, then he went for more steering and brakes at the same time in the corner! He was toward the centerline but not over it, then he jerks the wheel and hits the brakes, uhhh.....AWD or not that was not going to work out well!

[sandwood]

like others have already said and i have experienced first hand, just get a higher gear if possible and keep on trucking on the gas..that will help reduce wheelspin and start getting the front end pulling..but as also have been said, too much speed is too much speed.

 

no offense but shifting is not what you want to do when you are sliding around a corner.

[from the helm]

"Stay on the gas"? If you are already pushing and the car is tracking wide, more thottle will not solve the problem. On snow, gravel, loose surfaces where you already oversteering then throttle could help. If the front is already gone more throttle will not fix it, the great assumption here is that the car is still stock. If you have goe the route of bigger bars to make your car wag it's tail at any provocation, then....well then you'll be going faster with the engine on the rev limter when you finally go off.

[j255c]

also in that video it looks like he lifted off the gas and hit the brakes mid turn. Regardless of AWD it will create Trailing Throttle Oversteer if you suddenly let off the gas. But additionally you cannot go into a turn with hard gas, let off transfering the weight load from the rear tires to the front and then hit the brakes mid turn tranfering almost all of the weight load to the front tires.

[mwiener2]

"Stay on the gas"? If you are already pushing and the car is tracking wide, more thottle will not solve the problem. On snow, gravel, loose surfaces where you already oversteering then throttle could help. If the front is already gone more throttle will not fix it, the great assumption here is that the car is still stock. If you have goe the route of bigger bars to make your car wag it's tail at any provocation, then....well then you'll be going faster with the engine on the rev limter when you finally go off.

 

 

staying on the gas will throw the tail out...not get more grip

 

noone said more gas equal more grip

[RobY]

it depends on how much gas you give... If you give enough to overpower the rear wheels they will go out.

 

If you give a little bit weight will transfer to the rear and the car will understeer.

 

If you slam on the brakes in the middle of the turn all the weight will transfer to the front and unload the rear wheels you will snap oversteer.

 

If you tap the brakes a little bit, left foot brake, or let off the throttle you can get controlable trailing throttle oversteer.

[from the helm]

I don't think I have enough horsepower to break the rear end loose assuming the front end is already loose.

Therefore by staying on the throttle the front gets even less weight, less traction, and the rear tires get more traction not less.

 

If you have already established a lurid four wheeled slide with the front aimed approximately where you want to go....more throttle will widen the radius but allow you to control the angle of the slide without adjusting the steering lock.

 

I stand by my original statement, applying more throttle will not tighten the corner, will not re-establish contact with the front tires, will not reduce understeer, and unless you have an odd duck drifting suspension set-up it will not result in oversteer.

[RobY]

In AWD vehicles in some cases adding throttle can tighten the corner if your rear end is already loose. This is because adding power and steering in the direction you want to go will drag the car into line using the front tires. In most cases its a point and shoot affair the mistake people make is countersteering with an AWD vehicle and when they go onto power the power rotates them WAY further than they want to rotate.

[forestir]

Let's see why this might have happened. I think the unusual part is that the rear broke to the left instead of to the outside of the curve on the right.

 

I'm going to key on the "curvy" driveway and suggest that maybe you accidentally performed the Scandinavian flick where you had been loaded for a left turn, flicked right for a short curve or a correction, then entered your left sweeper. This could explain the rear coming out even with your left (now counter-)steer.

 

Your shift to second at that speed would give you tons of engine-braking, so probably kept you loose for a while, with the rears unweighted--perfect for a drift.

 

I turned hard left up a curvy commercial driveway leading to a parking lot. The drive curved left and was, I'd say, neutral to slightly positive camber. I grabbed second into a nicely sweeping curve and was doing about 50 when things got weird.

 

I've admired my LGT for always breaking loose all 4 tires at once and going into a nice predictable 4-wheel drift at the limit. That happened today -- started drifting to the right, outside of the curve -- so I didn't panic. I was getting a little wide and the tires refused to bite, so I let off the gas and gave the steering a nudge to the left. That's when things got scary.

 

I expected the rear end to come around counter-clockwise a little bit, tightening my turn and shedding speed at the same time. That's not what happened, though.

 

First, I didn't shed any speed at all. It was like I'd never let off the gas, or as though I were on ice (the pavement was clean, warm and dry). I just kept drifting wider to the right. Then, as I corrected left, the rear end starts sliding left. And I don't mean a little -- the darn thing got almost sideways! At this point I am now drifting into the oncoming lanes (no one there or else I wouldn't even have tried my little stunt). Finally, I lose enough speed (tires howling like a banshee!), I bring the car around, get back in my lane, and everything is fine.

[jerami1981]

no offense but shifting is not what you want to do when you are sliding around a corner.

none taken..we all make mistakes ..i just try to keep mine on the chat boards and off the road

[riscy]

Thanks for the insight(s). The video is spooky, and looks pretty much like what happened to me (only at a much lower speed and with a less disasterous ending!). Clearly he is on a right hand curve at the very end, but the rear end comes out to the inside of the turn.

 

"Driveway" was perhaps a poor word choice. Think of it as an uphill 2-lane blacktop, complete with double-yellow. And I am bone-stock at this point.

 

What I expected was for the rear end to come around to the right (i.e. counter-clockwise). It was the unexpected mid-turn change in rotation and seemingly endless skid that confused me. The upshift had occurred several seconds earlier, so wasn't to blame (directly ).

 

The undeersteer I've experienced in the past would have had me push the front end head-on into the curb (think Camry). I would have recovered by braking.

 

I love this car -- but clearly it takes more finesse to drive agressively than my rear-drivers did (think Trans Am). Of course, it does so many more things than those cars ever did! How much fun it will be trying to figure it all out

 

Thanks again!

[biturbowagon]

Looks like the problem might have been triggered by the presence of the motorcyclist coming the other direction startling the WRX driver (not the biker's fault, best as I can tell).

 

 

 

That's your problem, lift off understeer + AWD is a different beast and example http://www.corvettekillstories.com/photogallery/albums/JBSBLOWNC5/Pics/wrxcrash.wmv .

[melayout]

Yes and his reaction is what I was referring to. His car or he thought oversteered onto the double lines, he saw the bike, he lifted off the throttle, flicked the steering wheel and hit the brakes, causing him to lose control and hit the wall.

[Boostjunkie]

none taken..we all make mistakes ..i just try to keep mine on the chat boards and off the road

 

Totally OT, but you PM'ed me a question jerami1981, but your forum settings are such that you don't accept emails or PM's. Hit me back on PM with your contact information so I can answer you questions.

 

Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

[BLACKNYGT]

I have had a lot of experience in low traction situations with subarus, due to living in Steamboat Co. for four years, and have learned many things. 1 RE92's suck!!! that is your first problem, second whenever you go into an understeer situation it has to do with two things, 1st corner entrance speed, If you enter a corner too fast and try to turn in without trail braking the car will push straight. 2nd. without lifting completely off the gas at the entrance of what you seem to be descriibing as a top of 2nd gear turn the car will push staight due to the fact that the weight of the car is being transfered to the rear under acceleration giving the car the handling carecteristics of a front wheel drive car. My advice would be to find the biggest parking lot you can the next time that it rains and go throw your car around for a little while and figure out why it does what it does. Try Lifting off of the throtle "TAP" the brakes, not to slow down the car but to transfer the weight to the front wheels then turn the car in and adjust the turn radius by applying the throttle. These cars love to four wheel drift but it must be induced or it will result in an understeer. Before you go and abuse your car I would strongly recommend a set of Pirelli P-Zero Nero M+S.

[riscy]

Thanks for the excellent advice and insight!!

 

 

I have had a lot of experience in low traction situations with subarus, due to living in Steamboat Co. for four years, and have learned many things. 1 RE92's suck!!! that is your first problem, second whenever you go into an understeer situation it has to do with two things, 1st corner entrance speed, If you enter a corner too fast and try to turn in without trail braking the car will push straight. 2nd. without lifting completely off the gas at the entrance of what you seem to be descriibing as a top of 2nd gear turn the car will push staight due to the fact that the weight of the car is being transfered to the rear under acceleration giving the car the handling carecteristics of a front wheel drive car. My advice would be to find the biggest parking lot you can the next time that it rains and go throw your car around for a little while and figure out why it does what it does. Try Lifting off of the throtle "TAP" the brakes, not to slow down the car but to transfer the weight to the front wheels then turn the car in and adjust the turn radius by applying the throttle. These cars love to four wheel drift but it must be induced or it will result in an understeer. Before you go and abuse your car I would strongly recommend a set of Pirelli P-Zero Nero M+S.

[Xenonk]

simple, you did a lot of wrong things and even knew about off-camber turn (which you should have known that you were going to understeer anyways). Since you finally slowed down to the point where the front wheels actually bite, the rear end slid left because the front is now a pivot point, so this sends power to the rear, the rear tires are still turning, making you spin to the left if you are going to try to correct left.

 

Your reaction to counter-steer and reading the road still needs a lot of work and practice. You should take a course in car control. Don't ever think you are a good driver (no one is, not even me), rather think that you are a good student and go learn as much as possible and practice good form and sense of applied knowledge in a safer environment.