Built bottom end anygood?

[BarManBean]

And I'm not trying to beat you down, sigma--I've followed many of your threads over the years. But if you know you want 400+ whp right from the gate, it's easy to justify implementing the closest-to-100% solutions right off the bat.

[sigmafour]

I don't disagree at all... I could have spent a lot less money if I knew what I wanted right up front. But I didn't. Some of my adventures were experiments with Motive/Alberto... For example, how long can you run 400whp with stock pistons IF we offset it with methanol? Answer: not as long as we thought. I never expected my rod to fail like it did and the only things I could use from that engine were what was left of the heads (the cams were toast), intake assembly, alternator, power steering pump and the AC compressor. The rest... were trash. That was at least 20K smoked... because that engine had some forged internals too and a lot of labor expense before I started to do almost all the labor myself.

[RWebb]

 

motor: $10k

6mt swap: $5k

Turbo / exhaust: $2500

Suspension: $3k

 

Done. And all of those prices are probably a bit inflated.

.

I would say you are probably low but dont have the time to research the parts cost, install, tune, downtime, etc.

 

I would also say reliability goes down drastically above 350WHP.

[sigmafour]

I would also say reliability goes down drastically above 350WHP.

 

It does unless you spend more to offset the issues.

 

AEBS/Darton sleeves will be a good place to start but then you also need to think about line hone, pinning blah blah blah. But you can put the reliability back.

 

Although I like what BMB just said... is it fiscally responsible? Not at all but still... this is my hobby that's what I say and divorced because of it... in part.

[sunny5280]

Yeah right. You can get there for that kind of money but it won't last.

 

My $120K is an honest estimate of what I have spent on the car in total which includes buying the car in the first place and all maintenance and mods which include two engines and at this point two gearboxes too (Now with blast plates too!). My final long block alone probably cost $15k just for parts and not the labor to assemble and install it. My shortblock cost $9k and is built for 1200hp crank. The whole engine will currently handle 1000hp crank and 8500rpms but it won't last very long at that power - but at 500hp crank it will last 100k because it just doesn't care! But there are so many supporting mods and expensive parts to make sure it doesn't care and remains happy... this is not a cheap car to get right and as RWebb mentioned it is easier and cheaper to get 400whp with a V6/V8 but I wanted to do it to this car... this is my hobby and I don't like BMW's or other types of cars which I could have afforded but that's not what I like.

 

I spent $10k on one "mod" which was a second 2005 Subaru GT so I didn't have to DD the first one. That alone will prevent a lot of damage and wear to the first car!

I'm not questioning the amount or why it would cost that much. While I'm decent with a wrench I'm way out of my league when it comes to modifications. So I trust others here over myself...I wouldn't even know where to start. I was just surprised at the amount spent as it was considerably more than I would have ever guessed.

 

I've attached a pic of my 500+ HP ride. Despite this I absolutely love my Outback XT.

[RWebb]

I would be safe to say if you want a quick/ high HP Subaru have deep pockets. Anything past stage 2 gets pricey quick.

[sigmafour]

yes... 5300lbs X5 - not quite as much fun as that much HP on a lighter car, however I bet at 140mph your car doesn't want to come off the ground and fly like a kite.

 

And my figure is a back of envelope math. There was some thread around here once with people keeping a spreadsheet of what they have spent and sharing it. I didn't DARE keep track of things but I spent $30K on the car $20K on the first engine including losses on labor etc. I have chewed up many turbos (Some with incredibly long stories attached which will never come out on the forum but JMP has heard my tales of woe caused by AMR) and so in all... with all the other parts, like multiple alloy wheels, suspension costs and all the interior work, gauges, two Borla exhausts... it adds up. Is $120K high, probably but I fear it might be about right or <shudder> more.

[sigmafour]

I would be safe to say if you want a quick/ high HP Subaru have deep pockets. Anything past stage 2 gets pricey quick.

 

Yes. When you add in 'reliable' or 'safe' and your definition of whatever that means...

[subi_life]

If it's done rite I doubt it will be doing the same thing guys. Unless all subaru engines just burn a shit tone of oil even if everything is brand new.. doubt it so that's why I'm going for a brand new engine, I know trial and error are a part of building anything and I'm fine with that. Gotta learn someway because I know there's a bunch of cool dudes out there that kno the answer to most of my questions but all they can do is laugh.

But until then I'll be searching for one of the best bottom ends I can afford, that's what this post is about tryna find a good bottomend then go for my HP goal

[RWebb]

I know there's a bunch of cool dudes out there that kno the answer to most of my questions but all they can do is laugh.

whats the question :lol::lol:

[sigmafour]

bunch of cool dudes?

[sunny5280]

yes... 5300lbs X5 - not quite as much fun as that much HP on a lighter car, however I bet at 140mph your car doesn't want to come off the ground and fly like a kite.

 

And my figure is a back of envelope math. There was some thread around here once with people keeping a spreadsheet of what they have spent and sharing it. I didn't DARE keep track of things but I spent $30K on the car $20K on the first engine including losses on labor etc. I have chewed up many turbos (Some with incredibly long stories attached which will never come out on the forum but JMP has heard my tales of woe caused by AMR) and so in all... with all the other parts, like multiple alloy wheels, suspension costs and all the interior work, gauges, two Borla exhausts... it adds up. Is $120K high, probably but I fear it might be about right or <shudder> more.

 

It's definitely not as nimble as my Outback. Ironically I drive the XT harder than I do the X5.

[BarManBean]

Posts edited to remove hate speech. Keep it classy, folks.

[sigmafour]

Although I am British and that word means cigarettes.

[birdmayne]

Any car will be a money pit if you're willing to let it...

My LGT is nowhere near the first pit I've shoveled money in to.

To answer the OP, I don't have any feedback on Night Motors, or whatever theyre called.

However, smart of you to search for a proper bottom end to start with. Good luck with your build.

[Rhitter]

If it's done rite I doubt it will be doing the same thing guys. Unless all subaru engines just burn a shit tone of oil even if everything is brand new.. doubt it so that's why I'm going for a brand new engine, I know trial and error are a part of building anything and I'm fine with that. Gotta learn someway because I know there's a bunch of cool dudes out there that kno the answer to most of my questions but all they can do is laugh.

But until then I'll be searching for one of the best bottom ends I can afford, that's what this post is about tryna find a good bottomend then go for my HP goal

 

Honestly, if your goal is really 500+ HP, you need to work with a local shop to help get you there. The "cool dudes" are laughing because you are making it sound easier than it is. Sigma and Barman have given you very good advice on how to get to your goals.

 

There are a decent number of good shops in and right outside the bay area. You just need to pick one and start dropping ridiculous amounts of money with them. (which is great if that's what you want to do).

w

But realize, you are currently asking for 500whp out of a 2.5 liter engine. There was an Outback down near you that had a custom EFR set-up that was making around 500hp (might have been 400s though).

 

I have not heard our shortblock referred to as a bottom end, which makes me think you don't have that much experience with the Subaru platform. Which is fine. You should just start researching and pricing it out. Once again, work with local shops and tuners. LIC, FW, GST (closest to San Leandro), MANN, etc all have good reputations. But talk with locals and figure out which shop you want to work with. Figure out who would even tune it and work with them to compile a parts list.

 

Here is a part's list from youtube (AWDTuning - I think they have one of the fastest Legacies in North America)

 

Not all Subaru's burn oil, but a car that makes 500whp, will burn oil.

 

Here are AWDtunings prices: choose them because they have the fastest Legacy. A lot of local shops have good experience too.

http://awdtuning.com/services-support/

EJ25 Stage Two – 500whp/500wtq

-New OEM Subaru case halves

-New Heat-Treated STi Crankshaft

-Fresh hone

-ACL Race or King Race bearings

-JE FSR/JE Hybrid Pistons

-Manley H-Tuff Connecting Rods Price $3600

 

Basically you just need to start reading. Good quality parts are not everything, it also matters how put's it together. You don't want a shop leaving a rag inside the radiator when they bolt everything back up.

 

Here is IAG listed for 650 bhp (or about 500 at the wheels)

http://www.iagperformance.com/IAG-Stage-2-2-5L-Subaru-Short-Block-WRX-STI-LGT-p/iag-eng-1200.htm

[sigmafour]

Not all Subaru's burn oil, but a car that makes 500whp, will burn oil.

 

Not completely true. This too can be fixed at a price.

[RWebb]

Posts edited to remove hate speech. Keep it classy, folks.

It wasnt me that started it...

 

My LGT is nowhere near the first pit I've shoveled money in to.

.

In for wife pics

[birdmayne]

In for wife pics

 

She's a classy broad

[boxkita]

Starting essentially from scratch and doing it right the first time, dump around $20k into an LGT of your choice and you'd have a pretty damn reliable 400whp Subaru

 

motor: $10k

6mt swap: $5k

Turbo / exhaust: $2500

Suspension: $3k

 

Done. And all of those prices are probably a bit inflated.

 

Is it fiscally responsible or do you end up with a car that's worth the $25k that you have into it? Nope.

 

I would say you are probably low but dont have the time to research the parts cost, install, tune, downtime, etc.

 

I would also say reliability goes down drastically above 350WHP.

My build came in at 26k all said and done. It was only 310hp. With lightweight wheels & tires, it was damn fun. The oil burn rate, long warmup times, high cost of replacement parts got old pretty quickly. Another 90 hp, would have increased the speed of replacements.

 

The engine lasted 29k miles. Granted I drove it really hard, but still did not expect to get many 1000's of miles out of it. As DD, it was a pain in stop & go traffic.

 

About 8k of the build cost was in tuning the motor & the suspension.

 

Any pile of parts will work. If you want longevity, that's what costs money. If you start with "I want 500hp" as your only goal, you're going to spending alot of money. Building a 500hp dyno queen is pretty easy (relatively speaking). Building a 500hp DD is probably easier as you get on boost once the whole day. Building a 500hp track toy that sees redline and boost 5 times a minute for hours at a time, you'd better have an open account at a subaru parts shop.

 

A built bottom end is wasted money if the rest of the package is ebay specials. Engine failures come from lack of oil in critical areas and lean conditions. Lean conditions come from poorly thought fueling upgrades and bad tunes. Lack of oil comes from misunderstanding where the oil needs to be and when and what viscosity it should be.

 

The forums (not just the one) are legendary for "FU I can build a 500hp car" that peter out with "I blew my motor". Threads that start out "I got this <insert cool thing here> off ebay or CL or from a buddy" usually become "hey, what's the code mean" or "I'm losing oil, help".

 

But what do I know, my forged closed deck motor lgt has been gradually rusting away for nearly 3 years. Money for a 3rd engine & tune doesn't grow on trees...

[boxkita]

If it's done rite I doubt it will be doing the same thing guys.

 

With a 500hp subie motor, it's not if, its when. Don't be fooled by the 600hp WRC cars, the teams have multiple motors and rebuild them often. If you read about someone's 500hp motor lasting a long time, you can be reassured they don't drive it at full boost all the time.

 

If you get to 500hp, you'll be following a similar recipe to most builds. If it lasts, you'll either be babying it or spending a lot to keep it running.

 

But until then I'll be searching for one of the best bottom ends I can afford, that's what this post is about tryna find a good bottomend then go for my HP goal

 

The number of 500hp builds that are driven hard are few and far between and mostly owned by shops. Call the shop and tell them you want a 500hp build, they'd be delighted to build you one. Warranty ends at the shop door, tho...

 

No one is laughing at you. Just trying to help you out. Reliable 500hp is an expensive delusion. If you got money to burn, feel free to start a thread and tell all about it.

 

IAG stage 4 closed deck, Outback Motorsports stage 4 closed deck, crawford, cosworth, all make really good starting points for 500hp builds.

BuiltEJ makes nice flowing heads.

Kelford crower for cams

etc, etc

 

There's no recipe for 500hp. Build for 8000rpm, tune for 6800. Set your boost target for your 90% driving. If you set it for your 10% driving, you'll have a sucky no-fun car. If boost doesn't show up until 6800rpm, you wasted your money.

[RWebb]

Now if you really want a 500whp car do what Perrin did turbo H6.

 

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/perrin-h6-build-up/

[Merc6]

I'm with the the others, just keeping a 4 gen Legacy on the road is a financial irresponsibility in its own class. Since most of us have enjoyed the car that much we continue to shoot for that goal. 500 HP is possible but it's not as easy as a GM crate V8 engine in a Jeggs catalog. I haven't kept track of what I spent from 2007 to now and have no reason to start now. At the end of the day, you want to find a good tuner as I started off here with a stage 2 Legacy GT on the worst tune possible. Tune was soo bad I literally gained a second in the 1/4 drag strip going back to a Cobb OTS map. Then when I got a local tuner who tunes only STis and EVOs all day, I finally ran mid 13's in the 1/4 on H rated crap tires on a road tune.

 

In short, I'm with Rhitter and say pick a shop with the best rep and pray it works out. I should have did that but I pissed my money away on other things. I also listened to cool dudes who pretty much to this day want me to reuse everything that had glitter oil travel though it for 9000 miles before the engine was pulled. All I needed was a gasket kit, brake klean and heads sent off to be back on the road again according to them.

[dga]

You can race anything and it will go through parts and cash like an 80's executive through booger sugar.

 

There is so much knowledge out there on these engines and chassis that with a little homework you can have yourself a 400 HP daily driver that behaves. With anything that produces in the neighborhood of 200 HP/liter there are trade offs and consequences. Whether that is being savy with your pedestrian Subaru making 400 HP, or paying the man for upkeep of your value plummeting luxury brand vehicle while it's depreciation is reaching prices of late 90's used Subaru's in a matter of a few years, you'll pay to play the horsepower game.

[05LGTL25TSLEEPER]

Haha I was around $10k to get 325HP and still was plagued with issues.

From someone who went in from stock and two rebuilds, knowing nothing about Subaru vehicles from the get go, I would have to agree with the more seasoned gentlemen on this forum. Start buying lottery tickets or get a VERY high paying job if you intend on chasing a 400-500HP goal.

 

I'm dead ass broke on my third project build. Between suspension upgrades, Level 10 transmission \ TC \ VB and diffs to support the future 380HP goal, drive shaft, axles, supporting systems, etc...it's going to be a long time. Worth it? IMO for myself sure. I have a primary vehicle to DD. When this is done I'm going to have me some expensive fun!

 

$120K When it was mentioned it would cost a lot I was thinking in the neighborhood of $15K - $25K