BroncoAZ Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 Hi, first post here, likely future Subaru owner. I underlined my main question below. My wife and I recently moved from Phoenix, AZ to Flagstaff, AZ and will now be dealing with snow and winter fun. I will be driving for work extensively, probably 35K miles per year. I need an all wheel drive car that is comfortable and good on fuel. I have tested 30+ cars in the past month and am settled that it will be a Subaru. I have been looking at a Legacy or an Outback, I am leaning towards the Legacy because it is $4K cheaper, gets slightly better highway fuel economy, is slightly faster (2.5), and handles better in the bends. I want a premium trim with eyesight. The cloth seats are more comfortable for me (6'5", 325 lb) than the leather seats in the limited. I have a Dodge 2500 4x4 truck, so I don't need something with huge ground clearance to go out in the woods or to pick up building supplies. I will not be parting with my truck. My concern is with the 2.5 motor and it's power. It seems fine on the test drives in metro Phoenix. I will be driving the car extensively in the mountains, specifically on I-17 between Phoenix and Flagstaff. Do these 2.5 CVT cars have the power and gearing to climb a 7-8% grade at 80 mph without breaking a sweat? The 3.6 motor is out for me as the leather seats in the Limited are uncomfortable due to them having too much lumbar for my back. Here is where the second car comes in. My wife drives a 2013 Volvo C30 Polestar limited edition. The Volvo sits very low, is FWD, and I won't have it driven in the salt they put on the roads that will eventually rot it. We are debating on selling/trading the Volvo in favor of another Subaru for her. She shouldn't be driving more than 10-12K miles per year, so with the current $229/mo lease special in the base 2.5i model we were strongly considering getting her an Outback to replace the Volvo. The base model Outback certainly isn't as appealing as a manual transmission hot hatchback, but selling/trading the Volvo makes buying my Legacy and leasing her a new car very affordable. My other thought was to buy her a cheap car to beat in the winter, but fleet management and parking concerns are getting complicated. We have 3 vehicles now, if we add two more then we will have 5 for 2 people which seems ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroker ace Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 Avis rental rents the legacy here in TN not sure about there. It might be worth trying to rent one for the day or weekend to see if it will do what you think it should. my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLlegacy Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Avis rental rents the legacy here in TN not sure about there. It might be worth trying to rent one for the day or weekend to see if it will do what you think it should. my 2 cents Rent? Lol, get an extended test drive from the dealer for free. Are you set on the Outback for the wife? I have heard good things about the Crosstrek and great things about the Forester which both give good ground clearance and should be as peppy if not more so than the outback. As for the Legacy I wouldn't foresee any problems, you won't win many races but for cruising the 2.5 is a decently torquey motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoAZ Posted October 18, 2016 Author Share Posted October 18, 2016 Renting is a great idea, I thought of that too. I have a business trip next week and would like to find a Legacy or Outback to rent. The dealer offered to do the extended test drive on one of their CPO cars, so that is also a good option. I am not set on the Outback for her, but with the current lease the Outback costs about the same as a Crosstrek, so I figured the larger car that I fit in was a better deal. I don't fit in the Forester very well, all the dash and door plastic jams me in the knees. The Crosstrek is a better fit, but still too small for me to do highway trips in. I keep thinking that the 2.5 motor should be fine, but then I read threads in forums that they aren't great in the mountains. The 3.6 is out for me because of the leather seats, so if it's a Subaru then it will be a 2.5 model. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgoodhue Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 For your potential Legacy purchase, I would drive one at altitude to see if you like it, your really going to be the only one who be able to judge if its adequate. The leather seats are the same style as the cloth seats, the leather just make the seats a little stiffer because of the material. For your wife car. Are you planning on keeping the Polestar long term as a low mileage collectible? If not, I probably wouldn't buy another car to save hers plus the car isn't going to rust out over night [The untreated metal and under carriage bolts will have some rust after a year.] I don't know how your wife is with keeping her cars in mint shape but, my ex-wife isn't careful with door dings, keeping the interior clean or curbing rims. As someone who has always lived in the northeast, most car start having rust related issue between 10-15 years old. The rust clock doesn't start until the car drive through the salt, so if you have a 3-4 year old car, it should be good for another 10+ years. Any loss of value from no being rust free cars is going to be eaten up by lease costs. Those 3 years alone would be $229 x 36 for $8244 lease payment not mention insurance and applicable fees and taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyt88 Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Phoenix, AZ to Flagstaff, AZ and will now be dealing with snow and winter fun. How much snow does Flagstaff get? Being you are from Phoenix, I am sure you have a different opinion of "snow and winter fun", vs myself who lives in Snowbelt-land New York. FWD plus snow tires will out perform most if not all AWD on all-season tires. Subarus are good cars, but I think there are plenty of better options. Don't limit yourself to AWD if you don't need to... ** Then again, there are probably some Canadians reading this calling me a pussy NY'er. ** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToRealEyes Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 It looks like mileage is an important factor. A first thought is that with the 2.5, you'll possibly be pushing its limits 80-100% on your already known drive, versus the larger engine, which you'll likely not need to push quite as hard. For example, we managed to run a full tank of gas averaging just ~24.1 mpg in a 2017 2.5 CVT Outback doing mostly moderate speed highway driving (74 mph), with moderate but long grades and lots of cruise control. So, in our experience, it might have been more fuel efficient to drive the 3.6, which would probably not have been worked quite as hard, resulting in better fuel economy ("up to 28 hwy mpg"). What's great is that you at least have the ability to approach this with the knowledge of what your usual route would entail. I would weigh this heavily in deciding which engine would serve you better. The lumbar issue might be fixable. Worth asking, have you thoroughly explored every combination of ergo adjustments available on the Limited trim (there are a lot)? One more thing about the Outback and bends: make sure you take one on an extended test drive (as a few of us have suggested) on roads that qualify as "bends." It might or might not turn out to be just fine for your needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoAZ Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 How much snow does Flagstaff get? Being you are from Phoenix, I am sure you have a different opinion of "snow and winter fun", vs myself who lives in Snowbelt-land New York. FWD plus snow tires will out perform most if not all AWD on all-season tires. Subarus are good cars, but I think there are plenty of better options. Don't limit yourself to AWD if you don't need to... ** Then again, there are probably some Canadians reading this calling me a pussy NY'er. ** Flagstaff gets an average of 100" of snow per year with an average of 7 days per month from December to March. Some winters are very dry, others can be significantly wet. I will be commuting to Phoenix on a weekly basis and possibly Albuquerque and Santa Fe for a couple weeks per quarter (might just fly to NM). I was thinking that an AWD car with decent winter tires should be able to get me most anywhere I need to go, and if it can't I probably shouldn't be going. There is an issue for me fitting in most cars, at 6'5" and 325# and long in the legs it is hard to find a car my knees aren't hitting something in. When looking at this move I first considered a hybrid Toyota Avalon, then found my knees jammed in the dashboard. I then looked at a Lexus 300h, the knee room was better but the lumbar in the seat was far too aggressive and caused backaches on a long drive. I have looked at about 40 different car/SUV options from Ford, GM, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, VW, Lexus, Infiniti, etc in the past month. The FWD cars I do fit in: Hyundai Sonota hybrid (not perfect, but ok and cheap), Honda Accord sedan, VW Jetta/Passat (but not the Golf or Golf Alltrak with AWD due to the center console). The Outback and Legacy are also a good fit for me on the knees, so AWD or not they would both be considered. For a FWD car my best choice would be a Honda Accord. Compared to the Subaru the Accord is similar in cost, similar in MPG, lower in resale, but I could get a 4 cylinder Accord in a manual transmission. The Accord lacks AWD and Eyesight, their hondasensing is only available with their hateful CVT. The Accord hybrid is another option, but even at 36K miles per year it would take 4-5 years to make up the fuel cost difference over the standard 4 cylinder car and the car is $6K more expensive. We will be leasing an Outback for my wife today, 2.5 Premium in the carbide gray. The lease is a good deal (relatively cheap) and it will let me drive a 2.5 motor for a couple weeks before I decide on which car I will buy. We have decided that the Volvo will be sold or traded. With her getting an Outback the Volvo would be left in the garage most of the time where it has limited usefulness and still costs us money for insurance and maintenance. The trade offer from the Subi dealer means that I could get a 2017 Legacy 2.5 premium with eyesight for under $10K out the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncoAZ Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 It looks like mileage is an important factor. A first thought is that with the 2.5, you'll possibly be pushing its limits 80-100% on your already known drive, versus the larger engine, which you'll likely not need to push quite as hard. For example, we managed to run a full tank of gas averaging just ~24.1 mpg in a 2017 2.5 CVT Outback doing mostly moderate speed highway driving (74 mph), with moderate but long grades and lots of cruise control. So, in our experience, it might have been more fuel efficient to drive the 3.6, which would probably not have been worked quite as hard, resulting in better fuel economy ("up to 28 hwy mpg"). What's great is that you at least have the ability to approach this with the knowledge of what your usual route would entail. I would weigh this heavily in deciding which engine would serve you better. The lumbar issue might be fixable. Worth asking, have you thoroughly explored every combination of ergo adjustments available on the Limited trim (there are a lot)? One more thing about the Outback and bends: make sure you take one on an extended test drive (as a few of us have suggested) on roads that qualify as "bends." It might or might not turn out to be just fine for your needs. Driving ~36K miles per year MPG is important. Since we will be picking up the wife's 2.5 Outback today I will have the chance to do an extended test drive on my normal route for a couple of weeks before deciding if the 2.5 or the Outback are right for me. Looking on Fuelly it appears the Legacy is a consistent 2MPG better than the equivalent Outback in same 2.5 motor. The 3.6 Legacy is showing an average of just 22.3 MPG for 2016 models, the 2.5 Legacy is showing 27.8 MPG for 2016 models. That 5 MPG difference equates to 320 gallons more fuel per year in the 3.6 car. At $2.00 per gallon this isn't the end of the world, but it is worth considering. The 2.5 Outback will be fine for her 5 mile commute in town. The roads in Flagstaff aren't great and the additional clearance on the Outback will likely be appreciated on steep driveways. As to ergonomics, on each car I have sat in I first set the lumbar to the minimum setting. Too much pressure into the lower back gives me backaches. I did spend about 15 minutes yesterday in the seat of a CPO 2016 Legacy 3.6 with 4K miles, the seat in that one was broken in a bit and was more comfortable than a new one. I sat in 5 different new cars, the cloth was better than the leather when new but that CPO car makes me think that broken in either could work. On one night of test driving I pushed both the Legacy Sport and a Outback 2.5 premium into the same freeway turnaround at full throttle, the Legacy was the clear winner there as the Outback had significant body roll by comparison. The Legacy was also noticeably quicker and seemed less strained at full throttle. I am not surprised that the taller vehicle with the wagon body had more roll, but compared to SUV's I have driven it wasn't excessive. With respect to road noise, it seemed that the Legacy had more road noise but less wind noise than the Outback. I attribute this to the legacy being closer to the pavement and the Outback having the roof rack. Neither is extremely loud, but both are louder than the VW Touareg I have been driving the past few months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Drive a 3.6R and then drive a 2.5i, I think you'll be able to tell the difference. We drove a 2.5i just to see the difference. Very glad we bought a 3.6R. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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