Official Firearm Thread V3

[Dishwasher]

I would avoid any of the Umarex made .22LR’s such as the Walter, SIG Mosquito etc. They are poorly made and usually don’t work right, being very finicky about ammo.

 

I’m going to strongly disagree with RZA on the validity of a .22LR pistol or revolver of good quality. He means well, but most pistol shooters never develop solid fundamentals and hence never appreciate the .22LR as a training implement. Fundamentals are trigger control, and sight alignment for the most part with a pistol. Recoil control can be developed as you go, and as your ability to actually run the trigger at speed and track your sights develops. You can accomplish that on anything that doesn’t attempt to lodge itself in your face every time you fire it. Especially a .22LR. At one point I shot .22LR target pistols to a high level of competency, making Collegiate Nationals in 2003 as part of the Southwest Missouri State pistol team. We ended up 8th in the nation for whatever it’s worth.

 

It all boils down to your ability to press the trigger without disturbing your sight alignment, or your sight picture. Alignment of the front sight in the rear bitch is easy, your eyes and brain are naturally good at lining shit up. Holding this on the target isn’t hard for your eyes either, but it’s hard for your lizard brain to not try to jerk the trigger when your eyes see a perfect sight alignment with the target. This is the mind **** of pistol or rifle marksmanship. You can’t smash the trigger like an ape just because your eyes tell you the sights are perfect, well you can but you will miss the target. Slamming the trigger shoe into the frame jacks up all that aiming work you were doing because you disturb your sights during the lock time of the action before the round lights off and leaves the barrel. In addition many new shooters anticipate the recoil and push the muzzle down in a pre-ignition flinch. The combined result is the rounds impacting low, and the opposite side of the shooter’s firing hand. Aiming is pointless until you learn how to press the trigger strait back to the rear in a controlled manner.

 

As a beginner you have to force yourself to accept that you can not hold the gun perfectly still on the target, and to just press the trigger strait back to the rear building pressure until the shot breaks as your sights sway around on the target. It’s a simple concept that is not necessarily easy, suppressing your lizard brain that want to make the gun go off NOW! because the eyes tell lizard brain the sights are good to go is hard. Also lizard brain is pretty convinced that this exploding object you’re holding in front of your stupid looking face might hurt you and it would be best to try to keep it down when it goes bang. So you get to force yourself to overrule lizard brain and not flinch, and not snatch at the trigger. Eventually lizard brain will **** off and this will become a subconscious level task, but it takes meaningful correct repetitions to achieve. Meaningful correct repetitions are easier to achieve with a low recoiling platform, and all the good trigger control skills you learn will translate to any other pistol or rifle you subsequently acquire.

 

As far as .22LR pistols are concerned, I have strong opinions. The only worthwhile options are target pistols, or quality revolvers. If you elect to purchase a target pistol depending on what you get you will have to feed it quality ammo or it won’t work right. So standard velocity target ammo, or go get fucked. The Ruger MK-II/III family or Browning Buckmark are good entry level options and will generally work with high velocity ammo of good quality as well as good standard velocity target ammo. Volquartson makes fancy Rugers of match quality that honestly cost as much as an Olympic pistol.

 

Beyond that you get into dedicated competition Bullseye or international/Olympic style guns that cost $$$$$$$$$. They also refuse to work right with cheap bulk ammo. Benelli, Hammerli, Pardini etc are in this category and these days Pardini’s are the one to beat. A Benelli MP95E is what I took to nationals, and I still have it. Parts are scarce though as it’s no longer imported.

 

Then you have your various .22LR’s they try to imitate the look or administrative handling characteristics of a full size duty gun, they’re almost all universally utter shit made of pot metal.

 

Another option is the .22LR conversion kit for a centerfire service type pistol. Some of them like the Marvel conversion for a 1911, or the old Swiss conversion for a SIG P210 are works of art and are priced accordingly. Most of the others are nasty dog shit. There are a few exceptions but you have to research them carefully.

 

Next we have .22LR revolvers, aka “wheel guns”. Cool thing about revolvers is the ammunition doesn’t function the action like a semi-auto. This is true of both rimfire and centerfire revolvers (or semi-autos). So a revolver can handle any pressure range of ammo in a given caliber most of the time (there are some centerfire exceptions in old cartridges like .45 Colt). Furthermore a revolver can handle any shape of projectile that will fit in the chambers/cylinder, semiauto pistols do not share that trait. So you can run pretty much any .22 ammo aside from .22 Magnum in a .22LR revolver, and it will happily run through all of it including bulk trash ammo that will give a semi-auto fits. Easy choices here: Ruger or Smith & Wesson if buying new, used Colt’s can be had but are $$$$. You could also buy a Freedom Arms but be prepared to spend $$$$.

 

Personally I’d go for a Ruger or Smith & Wesson double action with 4” barrel if you go the wheel gun route. If you learn to run a DA revolver trigger you will then be able to run every trigger on any firearm you henceforth encounter.

 

Good luck.

 

Thank you Penguin, that all makes really good sense. I'm eyeballing double action .22 revolvers now. From what I'm reading it sounds like double action has a tough trigger pull, so if I learn how to master that with good aim, then those skills will translate well to double/single action guns later and striker fired guns.

 

only reason I recommend a 9mm over a 22 is the times I've spoke to Dish about guns, doesn't sound like he wants this to be the start of a collection, just wants a gun because Mizzurah.

 

I also forget that most people here live in America not NJ where getting handguns are a pain in the ass. Before I made my vacation home in Pennsylvania my official state of residency all I owned were 2 9mm handguns, a P226 and P229 because getting a permit each time I wanted to buy a handgun was a pain in the dick. I only did it twice over 4 years of residency here so I figured if I'm not going to own many pistols, make it something versatile.

 

Yeah I agree that an arsenal probably isn't in my future, that being said I have no problem with trading up when the time is right to move on. Getting a handgun here is about as hard as getting an Uber.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Dishwasher

[Norm Peterson]

Yeah I know that's what a lot of people do, I never did that because that means I'd have to commit to buying another handgun. I only applied for a handgun permit when I got my first FID and when I moved within the state and did a change of address. Since i was already doing the FID process it made sense to apply for a handgun permit at the same time.

I kind of came at it from the other direction. Started with the FID and no pistol purchase permits because at the time I wasn't even sure I was going to get into shooting handguns enough to actually own any myself. My son had a Glock in .40 and a Springfield XD in 9mm that I'd get to shoot when he was in town, so it wasn't like I woke up one morning and said to myself "I gotta go get a handgun and hope that I'll like shooting it".

 

Even though guns have been in and out of the fringes of my life for most of it, I was pretty late to actually owning any, being in my late sixties when I applied for my FID. I'd like to think it meant I brought a little wisdom to my firearms purchases rather than emotion or a "just fall in with the herd and get the same things everybody else buys" mentality. It clearly brought a preference for the older form factors, and I still don't have an AR (don't care all that much for direct impingement, anyway). First gun I bought was a Mini-14, strongly reminiscent of WWII's M1 Carbine (and in a caliber with widely-available and reasonably priced ammunition).

 

 

Norm

[THE RZA]

I got my FID initially to get an AR, when i was applying the police officers at the station said just put in for a pistol permit too, $2 and the same process.

 

If it weren’t such a pain in the ass I would have a lot more handguns than rifles.

[Dishwasher]

If it were as big as a pain in the ass for me as it sounds like it is for you I'd probably just skip it.

 

Now I'm looking at a Ruger LCRX .22lr 3" barrel.

 

So many choices, I can see why people get into this. They have some target .22s at the range by my house for rent so I'll try those out too. Might as well right?

[rodan]

As both a long time 1911 shooter (since ~1980), and a long time instructor (1993) I would not recommend a 1911 as a first gun for a casual shooter, especially if there's any thoughts of using it as a defensive piece. Compared to a quality striker fired gun (Glock, M&P), mastering the 1911 requires a higher level of dedication and training. Most folks don't have the time/money to invest unless they're a serious shooter. I have even seen issues with pretty competent shooters when switching back and forth between striker guns and 1911s.

 

It's pretty difficult to beat a double action revolver as a first gun. As noted above, if you can learn trigger control on a DA revolver, everything else is pretty easy. Not that DA revolvers are bad... you can get an exceptionally nice DA pull on an S&W. Something to consider is a .357 mag over a .22 rimfire. A .357 allows you to use a very wide variety of commercially available .38 special and .357 magnum ammo. You can start with light .38 special target loads, which have minimal recoil, and have the ability to fire extremely powerful .357 rounds without having to change anything on the gun. And there's an entire spectrum of ammo choices in between. A 4" .357 revolver is probably the most versatile gun on the planet.

 

The only issue is expense... My choice would be an S&W K frame, but the new ones aren't cheap, and the older ones are even more expensive due to the collector market. You can pretty much count on spending $600-800 for a nice one. Ruger Security Six or GP100 would be my second recommendation. Excellent guns, but the trigger will never be as good as an S&W. Colts tend to be more finicky and fragile. Don't buy a Taurus or Rossi.

 

Before plastic framed, striker guns were a thing, a 4" mid frame .357 was always my recommendation to a new shooter as a first gun. Nobody wants to hear it anymore, but it's still solid advice.

[THE RZA]

If it were as big as a pain in the ass for me as it sounds like it is for you I'd probably just skip it.

 

 

That is exactly why NJ is an anti-gun state. Too many people don’t bother, gun control legislation has no opposition. Now as a Pennsylvania resident it’s a lot easier.

[Norm Peterson]

As both a long time 1911 shooter (since ~1980), and a long time instructor (1993) I would not recommend a 1911 as a first gun for a casual shooter, especially if there's any thoughts of using it as a defensive piece. Compared to a quality striker fired gun (Glock, M&P), mastering the 1911 requires a higher level of dedication and training. Most folks don't have the time/money to invest unless they're a serious shooter. I have even seen issues with pretty competent shooters when switching back and forth between striker guns and 1911s.

What sorts of issues?

 

I'm fairly new to all this, but I can shoot my Colt Gov't Model better than I can shoot either of my son's striker guns. As a side note, the light pipe in the front sight of my Colt fell out . . . but I think I like it better being able to use the front sight as an aperture anyway. Just going to take a little time to fully adjust to once my range opens up again.

 

Like Dish, I'm not looking past doing a little target shooting. Lord knows, getting a CC here in NJ is all but impossible.

 

 

Norm

[Norm Peterson]

If it were as big as a pain in the ass for me as it sounds like it is for you I'd probably just skip it.

It is a bit of a PITA, probably more so if you still have a day job (I had already retired, so it ended up being more nuisance-level than anything). I wasn't in any particular hurry, so once I got everything on my end done it wasn't even worth fussing over the wait.

 

 

Norm

[Dishwasher]

As both a long time 1911 shooter (since ~1980), and a long time instructor (1993) I would not recommend a 1911 as a first gun for a casual shooter, especially if there's any thoughts of using it as a defensive piece. Compared to a quality striker fired gun (Glock, M&P), mastering the 1911 requires a higher level of dedication and training. Most folks don't have the time/money to invest unless they're a serious shooter. I have even seen issues with pretty competent shooters when switching back and forth between striker guns and 1911s.

 

It's pretty difficult to beat a double action revolver as a first gun. As noted above, if you can learn trigger control on a DA revolver, everything else is pretty easy. Not that DA revolvers are bad... you can get an exceptionally nice DA pull on an S&W. Something to consider is a .357 mag over a .22 rimfire. A .357 allows you to use a very wide variety of commercially available .38 special and .357 magnum ammo. You can start with light .38 special target loads, which have minimal recoil, and have the ability to fire extremely powerful .357 rounds without having to change anything on the gun. And there's an entire spectrum of ammo choices in between. A 4" .357 revolver is probably the most versatile gun on the planet.

 

The only issue is expense... My choice would be an S&W K frame, but the new ones aren't cheap, and the older ones are even more expensive due to the collector market. You can pretty much count on spending $600-800 for a nice one. Ruger Security Six or GP100 would be my second recommendation. Excellent guns, but the trigger will never be as good as an S&W. Colts tend to be more finicky and fragile. Don't buy a Taurus or Rossi.

 

Before plastic framed, striker guns were a thing, a 4" mid frame .357 was always my recommendation to a new shooter as a first gun. Nobody wants to hear it anymore, but it's still solid advice.

 

Now that plastic framed, striker guns are a thing, has your recommendation for a first time gun owner changed?

[Penguin]

Thank you Penguin, that all makes really good sense. I'm eyeballing double action .22 revolvers now. From what I'm reading it sounds like double action has a tough trigger pull, so if I learn how to master that with good aim, then those skills will translate well to double/single action guns later and striker fired.

 

Yes double action is a harder trigger to master due to the longer heavier pull. When firing a double action pistol or revolver your trigger finger is applying enough force to cock the hammer and release the sear, and on a revolver advance the cylinder. So you’re working against the hammer spring/main spring and any other small springs in any given action. Believe it or not, as Rodan points out, a well tuned DA trigger can be very very nice.

 

A DA revolver allows for two firing modes unless the hammer spur is bobbed, or the hammer is shrouded. You can simply roll through the trigger with your trigger finger in double action, or thumb the hammer to full cock and enjoy a nice super crisp single action pull. Your choice, most people thumb cocked the hammer to their detriment and never attempt to learn how to properly run their DA revolver.

 

One neat feature found on single action revolvers is convertible cylinders, so a 22LR can be had with a .22 Magnum auxiliary cylinder. Other options are .38/.357 with a 9mm auxiliary cylinder, and .45 Colt with a .45 ACP auxiliary cylinder. There are a handful of DA revolvers that allow this kind of flexibility like a Korth, go ahead and do a gun broker search for a Korth.

 

Rodan has out of the box trigger quality on DA revolvers pretty much covered, generally S&W does a better job with trigger quality than Ruger. The new redesigned Colt’s are very very nice, but are hard to find and pricey. On the plus side they are supposed to be far more durable so the delicate part of the equation is no longer an issue. But new designs sometimes have teething issues, and the Colt’s have had a few, that said they seem like good revolvers. I’m going the buy the first 4.25” barrel Colt Python I can lay my hands on now that Colt’s has addressed their first run teething issues.

 

On semi-auto .22LR pistols I would probably most strongly recommend the Ruger MK-III (I think that is the latest one). They’re a solid value, and will last roughy forever. Plus they are the most widespread option in the category and therefore have the most potential for aftermarket upgrades to pretty much any part of the pistol you can think of. They’re the .22LR pistol equivalent of the Chevrolet LSx series of V8’s: basically excellent with nearly unlimited upgrade potential.

 

If you decide to go .22LR for a first gun my picks would be:

 

Semi-auto: Ruger MK-II/III series with adjustable sights. Specific model is up to you. They work and run forever.

 

Revolver (in order of preference): S&W Model 617 4” barrel, or Ruger SP101 .22LR 4.2” barrel. Both will be good out of the box, the S&W holds more rounds and will have a better trigger.

 

Centerfire for a first gun:

 

Semi-auto pistol: A quality 9mm full size service semi-auto pistol. At this point getting more detailed than that is tough. You have to decide what kind of trigger you are looking for, polymer vs steel or alloy frame etc. Lots of viable choices almost an overwhelming number of them. Prices ranging from $500 to $5000.

 

Revolver: Smith & Wesson Model 686 4” barrel. Easy choice. Good trigger, handles .38 Special or .357 Magnum, and the slightly larger L frame it’s based on is much more robust than the smaller K frame that Rodan was mentioning. So it will handle a steady diet of .357’s without complaint if you want it to. If you can find a S&W Performance Center variant with some TLC paid to the trigger I heartily encourage you to spend the extra coin to get it.

 

Honorable mention to the Korth Mongoose 4” in .38/.357 with a 9mm auxiliary cylinder. If you’re in baller mode at all times and will accept nothing but the best German made roller bearing action and all machined from billet revolver. They’re supposed to be amazing. When Grant Cunningham a noted gunsmith says there’s nothing mechanically he can improve on, well that says it all.

[Dishwasher]

Is the Ruger MkIV no good? That seems to be all I can find new.

 

Just decided to pick up the Korth, 2 of them actually, why not right?

Edited April 23, 2020 by Dishwasher

[Penguin]

Shit are they already doing a MK-IV?

 

Yeah OK, it's the same platform with more updates. So yes, good to go.

[rodan]

The MkIV has been out for a while...

 

It mostly solves the chinese puzzle reassembly issues of the earlier guns. Lots of interesting variants available....

 

Now that plastic framed, striker guns are a thing, has your recommendation for a first time gun owner changed?

 

I usually recommend a modern, striker fired 9mm these days, since few people are interested in hearing about revolvers. I tend towards recommending S&W M&P and Glock, because those are the two I have the most contact with. I'm sure there are lots of others that are just fine but I don't have the personal experience with them to make a recommendation.

 

I personally like the M&P becuase it can accomodate a wider range of hand sizes than the service size Glocks. Quality wise, they're pretty interchangeable.

 

All that said, a revolver is still a very smart choice for a first gun.

 

What sorts of issues?

 

1911 requires more maintenance, and can be a little more finicky on reliability than striker guns. There's also more awareness required with manual safeties on a single action auto. I've seen issues with improper thumb placement, failures to properly engage the grip safety, and failures to engage the thumb safety on re-holstering. In at least one instance I'm personally familiar with, that particular issue caused an accidental discharge and injury.

 

1911 is a fantastic platform, it just demands a little more from the shooter. I've found over the years that most shooters just won't train that much. Also, switching back and forth between striker guns and 1911s is a recipie for problems for most shooters.

[Dishwasher]

Now I just want a Ruger Mk4, a 686, and a Walther PPQ. I'm gonna end up with an arsenal after yucking it up with you guys for too long

 

Thanks for all the help guys.

[rodan]

I'm gonna end up with an arsenal after yucking it up with you guys for too long

 

 

You act like there's something wrong with that...

[Dishwasher]

[Norm Peterson]

Shit are they already doing a MK-IV?

 

Yeah OK, it's the same platform with more updates. So yes, good to go.

You might be interested in this variation. Around 45 ounces with a 6.88" barrel.

 

 

 

Push the button on the rear and it almost falls apart for cleaning

 

 

 

Norm

[Norm Peterson]

1911 requires more maintenance, and can be a little more finicky on reliability than striker guns. There's also more awareness required with manual safeties on a single action auto. I've seen issues with improper thumb placement, failures to properly engage the grip safety, and failures to engage the thumb safety on re-holstering. In at least one instance I'm personally familiar with, that particular issue caused an accidental discharge and injury.

 

1911 is a fantastic platform, it just demands a little more from the shooter. I've found over the years that most shooters just won't train that much. Also, switching back and forth between striker guns and 1911s is a recipie for problems for most shooters.

Appreciate the information. Even though the re-holstering and its implied carrying with it loaded parts that doesn't apply to me here. Not that I'd leave the range with any ammo left in the gun anyway.

 

Seems you'd have to go out of your way to not properly engage this particular grip safety, though. Unnoticeable while shooting.

 

 

 

Norm

Edited April 23, 2020 by Norm Peterson

[Penguin]

You might be interested in this variation. Around 45 ounces with a 6.88" barrel.

 

 

 

Push the button on the rear and it almost falls apart for cleaning

 

 

 

Norm

 

If I buy another semi-auto .22LR target pistol it means I’m back into serious bullseye shooting, and I’m buying a Pardini in that case. As much as I love my Benelli it eats firing pins and recoil buffers and those parts are not as easy to come by as they used to be and even 15 years ago it was a pain in the ass.

[Norm Peterson]

Afraid to even think how much a Pardini might cost.

 

Bummer about the Benelli, I'd have expected better.

 

 

Norm

[Penguin]

Olympic grade pistols are finicky and in the chase for the fastest lock time possible Benelli made the firing pin as light as possible. They recommend ammunition with soft brass rims, and I ran a lot of CCI Green Tag in training and some matches. CCI has harder brass than Lapua, Eley, and other match only brands. My pistol really liked one particular lot # of Green Tag so I ran through a whole case of it one year.

 

A new Pardini starts at about $2500 or so.

[Dishwasher]

First time at the range today shot 3 different guns.

 

Started on the H&K p30s because I wanted to try something that was double single after speakinga with the range guy. I really enjoyed shooting it in both double and single action. Obviously my accuracy was trash as I am not an experienced shooter, but after my first 50 rounds or so I started getting more comfortable with it.

 

The second gun I tried was a Sig p320 compact, and it felt like it had a hair trigger by comparison. I didn’t really care for it. My groupings were noticeably less accurate. Not sure if that’s a result of the lighter trigger pull messing with my lizard brain, or the fact it was a bit smaller messing with my lizard brain.

 

Then I had a Berreta 9mm, which was really nice. I liked the controls on the gun and the additional safety. I also shot better with it than the Sig, and liked the double action feel of it.

 

Out of all 3 the p30s was my favorite. I only shot 100 rounds total. For anyone just reading this and unfamiliar with my background I am wholly unqualified to review guns. This is just my first experience at a range shooting some shit. The people there were super helpful, and offered me enough training to feel safe my first time shooting.

 

Overall the experience was fun and I’ve purchased a membership at the range so I intend to return and try some more stuff out. I’m also enrolled in their first steps class in two weeks, and will take more classes in the future.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Dishwasher

[Penguin]

Sounds like a nice first outing, particularly since you have a local range that has rental guns. This is by itself a wonderful resource.

 

Should you decide to opt for a semi-automatic centerfire pistol in 9mm as your first pistol, and prefer a DA/SA gun I don't think anyone in their right mind would tell you to not select an HK P30 variant, or a Beretta.

 

I'm an unabashed HK fan boy as I have yet to ever own one that wasn't outstanding in function, reliability, and mechanical accuracy. The stock triggers leave a bit to be desired for a target shooter or competition shooter, but there are gunsmiths that can clean them up into very nice triggers. For a beginner though they are just fine, and as a duty gun are also just fine. The P30 comes with three sets of back straps and side panels for the grips that can be mixed and matched to perfectly fit your hand size FYI, not extra cost but included. If you opt for a Law Enforcement package gun HK ships the pistol with 3 magazines and a good set of tritium night sights (radioactive gas vials that glow in the dark). HK is one of a few companies that take the time to zero their pistols at the factory, and even though your particular ammo may not be zero'd it will be close. My VP9 LE model came shooting to the sights no problem out to 50 yards with 124gr 9mm ammo, and really damn close with everything else. On the P30 I would be sorely tempted to opt for the HK LEM (law enforcement modification) trigger pack. No safety and a very light first stage DA pull that hits a "wall" of resistance that breaks like a SA trigger if you want to stage it for deliberate shooting, or you can just roll through it like a DA trigger if you need to get rounds on target in a hurry.

 

The SIG P320 is going to have a short take up and light-ish trigger break, this pistol is offered in a variety of sizes for both slide and barrel length, as well as grip frame size and circumference. The aftermarket is picking up on it heavily as it is the new standard issue US service pistol. My wife owns one, and even though I prefer other pistols more, it is still a good gun and with some after market modifications could be a great gun. I notice Wilson Combat (famous for high end 1911's and some very special Beretta 92's, as well as Glock modifications) is offering their take on the P320 with grip frames, trigger packs, and slides. They are probably awesome, I've never handled or shot a Wilson Combat product that wasn't capable of making me smile.

 

Beretta is always a solid choice, and in DA/SA guns the revered Ernest Langdon does trigger work and even has some pre-specced models made by Beretta. If you go for a Beretta 92 or a PX4 and you don't order a gun worked over by Ernest you're a moron. Those triggers he does are ******* amazing.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Penguin

[THE RZA]

If you liked the Beretta you might like the Sig P226 and P229 ...DA/SA trigger, full metal frame like the baretta....of anything Sig Sauer Makes, the P200 series pistols they really do make well.

[Dishwasher]

Well I think the Beretta 92x Centurion is the winner.

 

I can upgrade the trigger later per your suggestion Penguin, but for now that gun is far better than I am.

 

Sights are upgradable on the x, and it comes with a pic rail. I think it’ll be a solid platform to learn trigger control on. I’ll post pics once it comes in.