Official Firearm Thread V3

[THE RZA]

That’s basically where I’m at. Firm and careful to insert. A lot of that comes down to rifle pattern as I said.

 

My .308 is DPMS, p-mags work fine. 2 of the rifles I got in for my review my 5.56 mags work just fine. It’s really just an issue with my lwrc.

Edited April 21, 2018 by THE RZA

[TSiWRX]

:lol::lol: relax man, refer to M Sprank's post, that's the kind of answer I was looking for.

 

Well, I did give that answer multiple times, including spelling out exactly why, once:

 

^ Questions are necessary for the troubleshooting matrix.

 

New mag?

 

What generation is the problematic PMag.

 

^ These two, along with the first part of the latter can potentially assign problem to the magazine.

 

Issue with lower? What lower is this (make/model - as there are known lowers for which the Gen3 PMag's overtravel stop will not play well with, along with unique "you just won the lottery" BCM lowers, even), and how far has it been vetted (i.e. it's a new lower that the shooter hasn't shot much before or at all, and thus is of unknown provenance, or is this a well-used lower that's been known to work well, and this is a new issue, etc.)?

 

^ This will help rule out obvious lower issues - a quality manufacture milspec such as LMT (etc.) lower brings less concerns than if this was....well, let's be drastic here and say that it was a home-brew 80% lower

 

What happens when you swap this lower to a different upper, and vice-versa with the upper that this lower goes with, to another lower? In each case, the "swap-out" should go to a known-working/vetted mate.

 

^ This - along with the immediate former - gets to whether the issue truly is isolated to the suspected problematic lower

[ NOTE: do a complete-upper swap, first, let's not play with the BCG until we need to; right now, we're just trying to see if the issue truly tracks with the lower. ]

 

^ Again, we want to isolate before we randomly start to swap things around. We want to see where the trouble "follows," and when it does not, so that we can start to hone in on where the real problem is.

 

 

I think you just get lost in reading my word-wall, that's all.

 

But again, as I noted before, I really don't know that this - the GenM3's overtravel stop - is the true root-cause of your issues.

 

Why?

 

Because of what you'd posted here:

 

Gen 3 15/30's(5): 4 of my 5 15/30's will not insert with the bolt forward, regardless if I load to 13 or 15

Gen 3 15/20(1): does not insert with bolt forward, regardless of round count

Gen 2 15/30 1: does not insert with the bolt forward with 15, but does with 13.

Gen 2 30 (3): doesn't insert with bolt forward full unless carefully inserted, does fine -2

 

Bolt-forward versus bolt-locked-rear - as well as round-count - should not matter if what's causing you trouble is the overtravel stop:

 

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?205190-BCM-Lower-not-compatible-with-PMAG-Gen3

 

If the shape of the magwell/lower, as both myself and m sprank proposed, is the problem - in that it interferes with the overtravel stop on the GenM3 PMag - then the way the problem manifests should be that those magazines should fail to reliably lock in REGARDLESS of whether the bolt is forward or locked to the rear, and regardless of round-count.

 

Heck, if the overtravel stop hitting the rear of the magwell is actually the issue, your magazine shouldn't even lock reliably even if you only had the lower, without the upper, in your hand and tried to lock in the magazine.

 

The symptoms you reported aren't necessarily consistent with overtravel-stop interference.

 

Can it truly be the issue you're seeing - or even be a big contributor? Yes, I think so.

 

But I really think that a more detailed (yet still very simple) troubleshooting matrix as I proposed will flush out the real issue.

 

In the end, though, it becomes what C4IGrant noted in the referenced old M4C.net thread (one which Vickers, notably, agreed with) - that if a lower works 100% with an in-spec USGI magazine but doesn't work with an after market mag, then it is NOT the lower at fault. But now that the GenM3 PMag has been adopted by, notably, the USMC this makes for a new wrinkle.....

 

when you ask questions like what my mag insertion technique is, idk dude I just put them in and give it a tug to make sure it's secure like I did in the military.

 

and later....

 

[quote

That’s basically where I’m at. Firm and careful to insert. A lot of that comes down to rifle pattern as I said.

 

It's reading like you're doing the proper push-pull.

 

Don't laugh, this is actually something that many fail to do, and as I've noted before, even very experienced shooters, and even those with military/LE backgrounds (or are active duty). I've seen instructional cadre pull entire shooting lines off just so that they can get everyone on the same page and doing the right technique, and I don't mean for newbie/novice shooters, either.

 

A lot of folks do the "insert and slap" or otherwise too forcefully insert and cause the cartridge stack to bounce off the closed bolt.

 

Do it right, and there's little - if any - chance of that bounce being an issue.

 

I think that with your description, we can completely rule out technique as a potential cause.

 

Doing speed reloads is not an issue because the bolt locks to the rear when empty, it's more of a nuisance than an issue because the only time I really do have a problem is at the beginning of my range time when the weapon is condition 3. When it's condition 4 it is not a problem at all.

 

Understood.

 

And again, it is precisely because of your report of differences between bolt-forward/bolt-locked-to-rear that I'm scratching my head.

 

It's possible that the dimensions of your lower are just ever so slightly biased towards the maximum deviation allowed in the specifications (look at that one member on M4C.net, whose one lower seemed to clear the overtravel stop just fine on one side, but is hard against it on the other, for-instance) and that it is running into tolerance-stacking issues with the GenM3's overtravel stop - and that in-turn is making it so that while you can insert and lock the mag successfully with no pressure on the cartridge-stack, that the increased pressure from a full-stack becomes that proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.

 

But again, if that's my gun - especially if that's my serious-use gun, I'd want to trace exactly what it is that's the issue.

 

The other reason why I wanted to ask about your technique is because of the propensity for the L5AWM to cough up (or spew) rounds when inserted too harshly on a locked-back bolt. This is - and it's really hard to fight against this line of reasoning - why some shooters simply will not go with the L5AWMs, because of their odds of failing the field-expedient test of the feed-lip. Since you noted that you wanted to try the Lancers (but were hesitant to, due to their added expense for you) I didn't want you to spend the money if all you were going to do was to just get heartache and headaches from it.

 

Now knowing that you do insert properly, I'd say to use your industry contacts to see if they can't send you a few for review, before you decide if you like it or not.

[TSiWRX]

I have had no issues seating fully loaded PMags in any of my rifles.

 

With the bolt closed it takes a very firm insertion but they seat for me. I have mostly gen 2’s. Will try the newer gen 3’s shortly since I just got 10 of them in the mail the other day.

 

I don't have many GenM3s. I'll likely only buy those from now on - the few GenM3s I have are the 40-rounders, and all my rifles seem to work fine with them - but the vast majority of my stash are black GenM2s.

 

I'm cheap like that.

 

I used to do the down-load two, but a few classes using the full stack of 30 and understanding how to properly insert the mags pushed me out of this habit.

 

That said for my defensive AR, I only load its mags to 28. It's hard for my daughter to successfully seat a full stick of 30 on a closed bolt, and we can't guaranty that it'll always be an open bolt on a emergency reload.

[THE RZA]

I wasn't looking to troubleshoot anything, I was asking if anyone else had issues with P-Mags in their rifles.

 

It would make sense in LWRC's case as their rifles aren't made to Milspec. Maryland bans the sale and manufacturing of the mil-spec design, which is also why they only made piston system rifles for the longest time. It's the same thing in New Jersey, the actual stoner AR-15 design is banned by name but all rifles sold here have slight variations in one way or another.

 

back on Mags, I drove out to Cabela's in Hamburg PA yesterday, mainly to look at new pieces of glass but while I was there I was going to pick up more 30 rounders, they were wiped clean of all P-mags Part of me thinks it's New Jersey people driving out there to get them, but PA has been having some gun grabbing legislation voting recently too so I wouldn't be surprised if people are stocking up now before they can't. It would really suck for Cabela's in PA votes in all this proposed gun legislation since that particular store thrives on gun part sales, it's the closest one to New York and New Jersey.

Edited April 22, 2018 by THE RZA

[TSiWRX]

I wasn't looking to troubleshoot anything, I was asking if anyone else had issues with P-Mags in their rifles.

 

Ah, gotcha.

 

In that case, yes, there's plenty of people who do.

 

Although I'm not one of them, based solely on the guns I currently own, I can nevertheless testify to the fact that what you see on the various gun Forums such as M4C.net are definitely true. I've seen enough of friends' guns to say that it's not just something that folks have drummed-up for no reason.

 

It would make sense in LWRC's case as their rifles aren't made to Milspec...

Perhaps - although what's reported there, as you noted, was different, that it's about the bolt lock-back (IIRC, now that I've had a night to consolidate memory, switching to one of their own different bolt-catches managed to solve most of the problem, right?).

 

back on Mags, I drove out to Cabela's in Hamburg PA yesterday, mainly to look at new pieces of glass but while I was there I was going to pick up more 30 rounders, they were wiped clean of all P-mags Part of me thinks it's New Jersey people driving out there to get them, but PA has been having some gun grabbing legislation voting recently too so I wouldn't be surprised if people are stocking up now before they can't. It would really suck for Cabela's in PA votes in all this proposed gun legislation since that particular store thrives on gun part sales, it's the closest one to New York and New Jersey.

It seems that the stupid is in full-force again.

 

I'm sure last night's shooting in TN won't make things take a positive turn, either.

[THE RZA]

The irony in this shooting is the suspect bought his weapons in Illinois, a state that uses a permit to purchase system. I used to be for permitting, until I updated mine and got another handgun permit which was hassle, I realized it probably doesn’t do anything. This shooting validated my point.

 

PA’s problem is more yuppies from NJ & NY keep moving there to save on cost of living and won’t live by their laws. PA used to be free range for everything, Philly has become hipsterized, Lehigh Valley & the poconos has been invaded by NJ/NY transplants, Pittsburgh is starting to become a new tech hub for silicon valley transplants. PA isn’t what it used to be.

[TSiWRX]

^ Hey, I thought you didn't want political stuff here!

 

Leave this shit out of the gun talk thread. How many fuckingtimes do we have to tell you this? Post this shit in the PA.

 

[THE RZA]

Eh it’s not really politics, it’s the facts about PA

[TSiWRX]

 

Politics and daily-life are necessarily intermixed, when talking about firearms, I think.

[THE RZA]

My co-worker wants to sell me his LWRC-DI for $1000. He’s shot maybe 500 rounds through it. I don’t NEED another rifle right now, but that’s a deal.

 

Also, I have 2 Trijicon MRO mounts I want to get rid of. Both OEM, lower 1/3 and 1/3 co-witness mounts. PM if interested, I deleted my accounts on gun forums.

Edited April 24, 2018 by THE RZA

[TSiWRX]

^ Drive his price down to $900 ? That would be a really good deal, then.

 

Particularly if you were to flip it......

 

That said, an identical backup to your primary is always nice.

[THE RZA]

Not quite indentical, his is Direct Impingement, mine is Piston driven. Mine is OD green, his is black which is fine because their DI is outstanding, it was American Rifleman’s rifle of the year last year and even at the retail price of $1400 it’s a great value. It shares a lot of the same garnish as my $2600 rifle with the NiB BCG and trigger(that I would replace anyways), ambi controls, spiral barrel. It’s also almost 2 pounds lighter and doesn’t come with flip ups, which is fine because I stopped using them.

 

He was gonna trade it in to a arms dealer and was confident he would get 1000, i told him no chance in hell, he would get stiffed. I’ll let him try to trade it in first, and when the dealer tells him he’ll give him $600 i’ll say 900.

 

3 of the rifles I have right now for my article are in the same price range brand new, the lwrc is definitely a better value than the Sig M400 Elite & Windham WOTG, and even the Noveske Chainsaw which is about $300 more isn’t as impressive. I’ve shot the rifle for sale twice, I liked it better than my piston rifle honestly.

 

 

*side note about article*

 

The other 2 of the 5 are extreme opposites, BCM Gunfighter Jack & the Colt 6920

 

The jack is awesome, I took the Jack, the M400 elite, Noveske Chainsaw & the Windham to the Range yesterday and was a huge fan of the Jack. Only thing I can’t figure out is why they opted for the $500 giessele rail, but a $65 ALG ACT trigger [emoji782] For the same amount of $$ in parts they could have put a G2S or SSA-E and any M-lok rail & cerokoted it how they wanted. If I were them I would have done a Midwest Industries M-LOK rail and coated it.

Edited April 24, 2018 by THE RZA

[m sprank]

Buy all you can when you can. Thats my philosophy. I have no faith that the Constitution will stand unchanged during my lifetime.

 

GAWD the P229 enhanced elite is exactly what I wanted in a 9mm. Its not for edc, unless I am going to a black tie event. LOL.

[THE RZA]

I carry my 229 nitron compact daily. It’s not the smallest but it’s definitely not cumbersome. I do love it. Might need to upgrade the sights in the future.

 

I do agree with you, never can have enough rifles I’m hoping with the article I can keep a few of these afterwards, stash a rifle in every room of my house

[andrew.anderson]

has anyone on here purchased from Classic Firearms? If so, how was the experience?

[TSiWRX]

^ Ah, my mistake. For some reason, I thought yours was a DI, too.

 

Are the control surfaces the same? I am not intimately familiar with the LWRC line.

 

He was gonna trade it in to a arms dealer and was confident he would get 1000, i told him no chance in hell, he would get stiffed. I’ll let him try to trade it in first, and when the dealer tells him he’ll give him $600 i’ll say 900.

 

Pretty much that, exactly. The gun-shops really do have to go low in order to make a good profit. I'm really surprised he thinks they'll give him anywhere close to his asking price.

 

...was a huge fan of the Jack. Only thing I can’t figure out is why they opted for the $500 giessele rail, but a $65 ALG ACT trigger http://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji782.png For the same amount of $$ in parts they could have put a G2S or SSA-E and any M-lok rail & cerokoted it how they wanted. If I were them I would have done a Midwest Industries M-LOK rail and coated it.

 

I honestly thought that I wouldn't like the Jack as much as I did, when I got to play with one a few years ago.

 

I like lighter ARs, so the Jack's 7.1-lbs. spec'ed dry weight is a bit on the porky side for me, particularly given its 14.5-inch setup. Nevertheless, subjectively, the gun balanced really, really well (I tried to ignore as best I could the soul-crushing EOTech + magnifier setup the owner had on the gun ).

 

My best guess about the trigger/rail?

 

Remember, this gun dates back to 2012.....

 

At the time, that expensive Geissele rail may have been the only rail that really offered sufficient structural integrity to minimize/eliminate handguard deflection. It's possible that Haley's need to teach with NV/lasers made this concession a necessary one, particularly when we hark back to that period in history.

 

Similarly, Haley's professed love (even from his Magpul days) of the single-stage USGI/mil-spec trigger may well be why he chose to stick with the ACT trigger, regardless of the price-gap, especially seeing as the Geissele single-stage (the Super 3 Gun) carried nomenclature that suggested it was a gamer's trigger, which probably would impact a portion of the crowd for which this semi-bespoke gun's appeal was aimed towards.

 

Out of curiosity, does the current Jack still use the old-style BCM charging handle, or has it gone to the current generation?

[TSiWRX]

^ Urrgh. The VB defect won't let me edit.

 

Speculation on why the gun handled, subjectively, "lighter" than I thought it would have.

 

It's possible that the 10-inch rail forced my support hand to be closer to the fulcrum, thus subjectively helping balance of the gun on the swing. I'm not sure that this is completely true, however, as my LMT MRP (DI variant) and my hobby gun both also have rather short rails/handguards, and yet both still handle like pigs.....

 

Could just be the fact that I subconsciously registered the Jack as a pricier gun, and therefore, that I'd better like it better?

 

I think I'd love to do a blind taste-test on it, if I ever got the chance to get my paws on one again.

[THE RZA]

The IC-DI and the IC-SPR share the same lower receiver, if one ever wanted to upgrade to the piston, it’s as simple as swapping uppers

[THE RZA]

These are the bigger differences between the Piston and the DI. This is the obvious one, the piston. Yes, that’s the same AFG that comes with the DI, but lwrc does sell it for all rifles, and the best one i’ve found for this rifle

 

 

This is the other

 

 

The DI doesn’t come with the QD end plate.

[bucko3the7man]

I really want to shoot the P365. Saw one in person the other day and think that could be a new EDC. Size of my LC9s and holds 10+1.

[THE RZA]

Since it got lost in the posts, if anyone has a Trijicon MRO or plans to get one, let me know if you want/need mounts. I have 2 Trijicon lower 1/3 and upper 1/3 mounts for MRO that came with mine. I have the Geissele Super Precison Mount for mine now (which is baller).

 

My MRO came with the 2 mounts, a lot of times they don’t, so if you need one let me know!

[THE RZA]

 

I think I'd love to do a blind taste-test on it, if I ever got the chance to get my paws on one again.

 

 

 

Take a 6 hour drive to Easton PA and come shooting while I still have the rifles!

 

I didn’t know this rifle’s been out since 2012, based on that I’d say it was ahead of it’s time, now the market basically demands every high end rifle to have tacticool features like a thin Keymod or M-LOK rail (I hate keymod fyi) but even more when you get in to this price point, they demand something more to warrant the price tag. I feel like now in 2018 when there are so many options out there for lightweight and thin rail systems, if I were BCM I would change to a MI or DD m-lok rail, or hell make their own because they make everything else at this point. And put a SSA-E trigger. With a $2000+ price point for this rifle, you gotta compete with a lot of other heavy hitters, it needs something better. I will be writing about this in my article.

 

Comparatively speaking it’s very similar to the Noveske Chainsaw that I also have right now for this same article, both have the same trigger and almost identical numbers otherwise. Both rifles have their strong points, I think if you had to buy one and you had to choose, it would come down to personal taste in brand.

[TSiWRX]

I really want to shoot the P365. Saw one in person the other day and think that could be a new EDC. Size of my LC9s and holds 10+1.

 

Hit up MikeNH for his assessment.

 

 

----

 

 

Take a 6 hour drive to Easton PA and come shooting while I still have the rifles!

 

I really wish I could! Bad timing!

 

We'll have to get together another time, though. Even without these rifles, I'm sure you'll have other samples to play with by then.

 

I didn’t know this rifle’s been out since 2012, based on that I’d say it was ahead of it’s time....

IIRC, it came onto the open market in first-quarter (if not January) of 2013. I am pretty sure that if you searched the M4Carbine.net Forums you'll see a lot of comparative "what to buy" posts about it stemming from that time, and similarly, I think the old BCM/Haley Strategic promo videos about the gun are still on YouTube.

 

I feel like now in 2018 when there are so many options out there for lightweight and thin rail systems, if I were BCM I would change to a MI or DD m-lok rail, or hell make their own because they make everything else at this point.

 

BCM put their own MLok ("MCMR") and 1913 ("QRF") handguards on the market as of earlier this year. They let the community know as of early 2017 (I think it was either at SHOT or shortly thereafter) that it would materialize by late '17:

 

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?193899-BCM-KMR-M-LOK-late-2017

 

They're nice rails.

 

In the ultimate weight contest, their MCMR is still just a little heavier than their KMR-A, but that's the trade-off incurred in strength and repeatability.

 

But then again, we knew that with 1913, already.

 

And put a SSA-E trigger. With a $2000+ price point for this rifle, you gotta compete with a lot of other heavy hitters, it needs something better. I will be writing about this in my article.

Time travel makes everything better, but really, I think that the Jack is just a product of its times. Maybe you can spur BCM/Haley into updating this gun?

 

I think if you had to buy one and you had to choose, it would come down to personal taste in brand.

"Signature Rifles" were a thing at that point in time as well.

 

EAG (of the late Pat Rogers) had one with BCM, Chris Costa had one with Larue, Tricon (Jeff Gonzales) had one with LWRC, Vickers, with Daniel Defense. Tiger Mckee's "Katana" was a custom assembly that used off-the-shelf parts. Paul Howe had one with Wilson Combat, and Frank Proctor with Windham. I think Steve Fisher's collaboration with Midwest was the last of the breed that I really remember seeing, dating back to 2016. I'm probably missing a few, but those came to mind immediately, and most came from the 2010 to 2014 era.

 

I think that, really, today, these "signature guns" face a harder time because there's just so many good parts (and great rifles, such as the Knights) available at the higher price-points that it's really hard for a "signature" rifle to compete. Looking back at the Costa offerings through Larue (I think he had both an OBR and a PreadtAR), both sold-out, each time they were offered (I think they offered two or even possibly three runs, I believe about 100 of each for each run) they sold-out in a matter of hours, if not just minutes. I don't know that would be a reproducible phenomenon, today.

 

And that's not even counting the competition from what are otherwise really good complete rifles that had saturated the market at the $1200 to $1600 price-point, too.

 

Similarly, consumers have gotten a lot more knowledgeable in the meantime, too. The craziness/derp we saw under the Obama administration and pre-Hillary frenzies I think really taught a lot of folks a hard lesson about buying items that simply do not measure up. On the flip side, as more and more hobbyists are now engaged in seeking training and knowledge, we have another sector of the market who are exceptionally well educated about the gun and its components, and are ever more choosier about what they spend their money on.

Edited April 25, 2018 by TSi+WRX

[twisty]

I want her to be safe in my home as well as outside my home. I dont know what everyone else has and how they store it. If she encounters it outside the house, I want the same reaction as inside the house. Dont touch it, get away from the situation immediately, get an adult immediately.

 

i started my 3 kids at a young age on safety as well, best thing you can do. some healthy respect and training on what to do goes a long way with kids. i also had to deal with other parents not agreeing with my gun ownership, and thats a shame as well. hell, my own brother is against it all, but now that his boys are old enough to see them in the real world and have questions, hes been coming to me for help on it.

[Penguin]

Not quite indentical, his is Direct Impingement, mine is Piston driven. Mine is OD green, his is black which is fine because their DI is outstanding, it was American Rifleman’s rifle of the year last year and even at the retail price of $1400 it’s a great value. It shares a lot of the same garnish as my $2600 rifle with the NiB BCG and trigger(that I would replace anyways), ambi controls, spiral barrel. It’s also almost 2 pounds lighter and doesn’t come with flip ups, which is fine because I stopped using them.

 

He was gonna trade it in to a arms dealer and was confident he would get 1000, i told him no chance in hell, he would get stiffed. I’ll let him try to trade it in first, and when the dealer tells him he’ll give him $600 i’ll say 900.

 

3 of the rifles I have right now for my article are in the same price range brand new, the lwrc is definitely a better value than the Sig M400 Elite & Windham WOTG, and even the Noveske Chainsaw which is about $300 more isn’t as impressive. I’ve shot the rifle for sale twice, I liked it better than my piston rifle honestly.

 

 

*side note about article*

 

The other 2 of the 5 are extreme opposites, BCM Gunfighter Jack & the Colt 6920

 

The jack is awesome, I took the Jack, the M400 elite, Noveske Chainsaw & the Windham to the Range yesterday and was a huge fan of the Jack. Only thing I can’t figure out is why they opted for the $500 giessele rail, but a $65 ALG ACT trigger [emoji782] For the same amount of $$ in parts they could have put a G2S or SSA-E and any M-lok rail & cerokoted it how they wanted. If I were them I would have done a Midwest Industries M-LOK rail and coated it.

 

I told you a week ago that you’d end up loving The Jack.

 

Not to beat a dead horse or anything.