Official Firearm Thread V3

[THE RZA]

What are you laughing at, indentured servant?

 

[m sprank]

Found the ammo. 1000 rounds of CCi Mini Mag 40grain and 1000 rounds of CCi Mini mag 36 grain hollow point. $175 in my hot little (Trumpian) hands.

 

Followed a tutorial given by a local gunsmith. Modified the Mosquito feed ramp and magazines. Cleaned and WELL lubed. Loctite added to all parts that tend to come loose. Crimson Trace laser added cause I am old and lazy, LOL.

 

Time to go pew, pew.

[BDII]

For a guy who builds his own ARs and buys high quality ARs, it's confusing me to as to why you buy a gun known for jamming and breaking. There's a reason they discontinued it.

 

Is there no better .22's on the nanny list?

[THE RZA]

I would just get the sig .22 conversion kits if they work with the German Sig

[ehsnils]

For a guy who builds his own ARs and buys high quality ARs, it's confusing me to as to why you buy a gun known for jamming and breaking. There's a reason they discontinued it.

 

Is there no better .22's on the nanny list?

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_submachine_guns

[Knight705]

For a guy who builds his own ARs and buys high quality ARs, it's confusing me to as to why you buy a gun known for jamming and breaking. There's a reason they discontinued it.

 

Is there no better .22's on the nanny list?

 

There is the buckmarks on our ca roster. Not the newest one but the model before that.

[BDII]

Which is a far superior pistol with a plethora of aftermarket (if that's legal in Kommiefornia)

 

There's not a day that goes by that I don't hope the San Andreas fault breaks off and floats Kommiefornia over to Australia where it belongs.

 

Or down to Mexico, which it basically is any way.

[THE RZA]

Shameless plug, my first article was published for a gun review, give it clicks and I’ll be able to create more content in the future [emoji846]

 

http://www.thebrasstacs.com/2018/04/03/windham-weaponry/

[m sprank]

Clicked it!

[m sprank]

For a guy who builds his own ARs and buys high quality ARs, it's confusing me to as to why you buy a gun known for jamming and breaking. There's a reason they discontinued it.

 

Is there no better .22's on the nanny list?

 

Because I like the challenge. If it does not work with all ammo, what can I do to make it work. Well... already reshaped and polished the feed ramp, modified the trigger, locktited all screws that can come loose, deburred the magazines, reshaped the magazine followers, cleaned and lubed the ever loving sh#t out of it.

 

300 rounds of different brands, grain and charge (from my plinking rounds for the 10/22) with ZERO misfires, FTE, stovepipes, etc. No failures so far with cheap ass ammo. So, when the good stuff arrives I am a pig in poop.

[ehsnils]

Something for gun nerds.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKhZlfGHl6g]LugerMan Reproduction of the 1907 .45 Test Trials Luger - YouTube[/ame]

 

Seems like you can buy one of them - for about $6000.

[THE RZA]

So I have a BCM Gunfighter Select, Windham Weaponry "Way of the Gun", and a Colt LE6920 sitting in my safe right now, I'm also waiting on a Sig Sauer M400 Elite Ti and a Noveske Chainsaw all to go head to head for future content

 

Will be testing both with a Trijicon MRO and a NXS 3.5-15x50 and 5 different loads of ammo. Plan to beat the shit out of all 5 and make comparisons.

[BDII]

Stock trigger on the LE6920?

 

If so, it's red hot garbage that a cat who's been fed nothing but blue cheese for a month just shit on.

[THE RZA]

I've been telling you for 3 months to upgrade the trigger on yours seriously, a Geissele SSA-E will solve problems in almost every rifle.

 

yes it's the stock trigger in all of these rifles which may make for some unfair comparisons. Sig uses their own 2 stage match trigger, Noveske uses a ALG Defense which is Geissele's other brand in the chainsaw, BCM, Windham and Colt all use Mil-Spec. Either get a Geissele SSA-E or bring yours to a gunsmith who can tweak the stock trigger and make it smoother. Usually involves a lighter spring and different bearings which is a cheap $50 adjustment.

[TSiWRX]

yes it's the stock trigger in all of these rifles which may make for some unfair comparisons. Sig uses their own 2 stage match trigger, Noveske uses a ALG Defense which is Geissele's other brand in the chainsaw, BCM, Windham and Colt all use Mil-Spec. Either get a Geissele SSA-E or bring yours to a gunsmith who can tweak the stock trigger and make it smoother. Usually involves a lighter spring and different bearings which is a cheap $50 adjustment.

 

My understanding is that most tweaking to the OE/"USGI Mil-Spec" setup is polishing of the sear/hammer/disconnector mating surfaces (and maybe even the pins, although this gets a bit tricky), and that changing to lighter springs can cause issues with some ammo....

 

In terms of bearings, aren't those only in some select aftermarket triggers?

[THE RZA]

They are but can be fitted in to Milspec, it’s not one size fits all upgrade. Though lighter springs should be fine for almost all 5.56 loads.

 

For $50 you can tweak a mil-spec trigger. For $65-120 you can get an ALG defense trigger which is just Geissele without the name and a little more “generic”. I might have mentioned I got to tour the Geissele factory 3 weeks ago and they explained to me the differences between both lines. To be honest I didn’t notice a huge difference between the ALG trigger and a G2S, which if you aren’t looking to splurge in a trigger would be the next option I would give at $165. If you want to splurge, the SSA-E is sufficient for 95% of the shooters out there.

[TSiWRX]

They are but can be fitted in to Milspec, it’s not one size fits all upgrade.

 

Ah, I see what you mean, now. I thought you'd meant with your original wording that a gunsmith would polish-up the bearings in the factory trigger, which, I was, like, are they going to change my blinker fluid, too?

 

Though lighter springs should be fine for almost all 5.56 loads.

 

I disagree.

 

This is one of those areas where "should" does not nearly always plan out in-reality: it's where many of the "bubba triggers" I see in classes and on the range have problems.

 

I really think that folks who decide to tweak the trigger by replacing the trigger/hammer (and potentially also the disconnect) spring(s) really need to first iron out what they intend for their gun: if the potential of that light-strike is worth the gain in trigger refinement.

 

[quote\

For $50 you can tweak a mil-spec trigger. For $65-120 you can get an ALG defense trigger which is just Geissele without the name and a little more “generic”. I might have mentioned I got to tour the Geissele factory 3 weeks ago and they explained to me the differences between both lines.

 

I've got an ACT in my hobby gun.

 

I didn't know their prices went up that high for the AR-15 platform, though? Isn't the ACT around $70, and the QMS around $50?

 

Or are you talking about their full LPK options?

 

To be honest I didn’t notice a huge difference between the ALG trigger and a G2S, which if you aren’t looking to splurge in a trigger would be the next option I would give at $165. If you want to splurge, the SSA-E is sufficient for 95% of the shooters out there.

 

Wait - you're going to directly cross compare the ALG ACT, a single-stage (at no less than 5.5 lbs as-spec'ed), with the G2S, which is a two-stage (2.5/2.0, total ~4.5 as-spec'ed)?

 

I can't feel the difference between my G2S and my SSA on a blind taste-test (but I can feel the difference between the SSA versus the SSA-E), but even single-stage/two-stage aside, I can definitely feel the difference between the ACT and the G2S, blind.

[THE RZA]

 

 

I disagree.

 

This is one of those areas where "should" does not nearly always plan out in-reality: it's where many of the "bubba triggers" I see in classes and on the range have problems.

 

remember the same milspec AR trigger is used in .308 and 6.5 platforms as well, the same lighter trigger upgrades used for 5.56 can also handle heavier ammo loads. I haven't seen anyone do this with a .308, typically they upgrade the whole trigger, but I've seen it on 5.56 with no issues at all. It's a common thing done with LWRC's stock trigger which is great for a mil-spec pull rating, it just has slight creep. Then again it is a Ni-Bor trigger

 

 

 

 

I've got an ACT in my hobby gun.

 

I didn't know their prices went up that high for the AR-15 platform, though? Isn't the ACT around $70, and the QMS around $50?

 

Or are you talking about their full LPK options?

 

 

 

Wait - you're going to directly cross compare the ALG ACT, a single-stage (at no less than 5.5 lbs as-spec'ed), with the G2S, which is a two-stage (2.5/2.0, total ~4.5 as-spec'ed)?

 

I can't feel the difference between my G2S and my SSA on a blind taste-test (but I can feel the difference between the SSA versus the SSA-E), but even single-stage/two-stage aside, I can definitely feel the difference between the ACT and the G2S, blind.

 

I just did, the G2S is nothing to write home about. When I had that in my LWRC I really didn't notice that much of a difference from the stock trigger and I put 700 rounds through it. I did the SSA-E last month and it's a major upgrade from the G2S. I would recommend the G2S for someone who doesn't want to spend a whole lot of money on a trigger job, but it being the top of their budget. BD doesn't want to spend a lot of money on a trigger, I would say for $165 it's the best he can get, but if he doesn't even want to spend that much, go with the ACT.

 

They do have a newer ALG model coming out that will be $125 and essentially it's a generic G2S

[TSiWRX]

remember the same milspec AR trigger is used in .308 and 6.5 platforms as well, the same lighter trigger upgrades used for 5.56 can also handle heavier ammo loads. I haven't seen anyone do this with a .308, typically they upgrade the whole trigger, but I've seen it on 5.56 with no issues at all. It's a common thing done with LWRC's stock trigger which is great for a mil-spec pull rating, it just has slight creep. Then again it is a Ni-Bor trigger

 

Ah, but a production trigger isn't the same as some guy who is supposedly a "gunsmith" - or even an end-user hobbyist - hacking away at things.

 

That production LWRC has undergone a lot of development, not to even mention QC/QA, before it shipped out of the factory.

 

That's a world different from a guy popping in various trigger/hammer/disconnect springs.

 

It's like saying that taking some paper or stones to the factory trigger is equivalent to the manufacturing of the ALG/Geissele offerings.

 

The two just aren't equal.

 

Virtually every range-day and at most beginner/novice-level classes, I hear/see some bubba complaining of light-strikes and then observe some kind of multi-colored spring set in their lower when I crack it open.

 

Heck, I almost forgot, even ALG notes with their really pretty awesome "Purple Spring" that some may note light strikes.

 

[ I don't have a lot of know-how with the large-frame ARs, but my understanding is that light-strikes due to hard primer is actually *more* of a problem with the .223/5.56 ARs versus the AR-10 platform and its typical ammo., that aftermarket spring combos are actually less problematic with the AR-10. ]

 

I just did, the G2S is nothing to write home about. When I had that in my LWRC I really didn't notice that much of a difference from the stock trigger and I put 700 rounds through it. I did the SSA-E last month and it's a major upgrade from the G2S. I would recommend the G2S for someone who doesn't want to spend a whole lot of money on a trigger job, but it being the top of their budget. BD doesn't want to spend a lot of money on a trigger, I would say for $165 it's the best he can get, but if he doesn't even want to spend that much, go with the ACT.

 

They do have a newer ALG model coming out that will be $125 and essentially it's a generic G2S

Ah - so you're comparing the G2S to a not-yet-on-the-market ALG two-stage?

 

You didn't clarify that in your original post above.

 

Regardless, you insist that you are speaking of the ACT, and I honestly don't see how you can compare that to the G2S. There's a disparity in price (nominally a $50 difference, but I've seen G2S pricing dip just south of $100 [DPMS contact overrun from a while back, I don't think they have any more stock, though] on some really, really good sales) and a clear disparity in function.

 

It's like people popping up on Forums asking if they should get a G2S or an ACT.

 

It just doesn't make sense - one is a two-stage, and the other, a single: and it is this base differentiation that should drive the decision tree, which splits off right then and there.

 

A single-stage should be compared to a single-stage - a two-stage, to a two-stage.

 

Or at the very least have the two on near-equal dollar-scale...but even then, come on.

 

I haven't had my hands on a DI LWRC in a few weeks, so I really can't say that I remember what that was like - but IIRC, it's a single-stage at about 5.5 to 6 lbs, right?

 

If so, maybe you're confused and wanted to write that the DI LWRC's OE trigger is much like the ALG?

 

^ The reason for this question is because I just pulled out both my hobby gun and my HD gun, and not only is the trigger take up and break completely different and totally discernible between the two (ALG ACT and Geissele SSA, respectively) but everything from the reset to even just the feel of the trigger face against my finger was also completely different - there's no way I could even remotely mix up the two. I mean, I'll strip down to just the lower and buffer tube after I get home from picking up my daughter from school, just to be sure (as my hobby gun currently uses a Magpul K2, so it's possible to cheat, that way - once I pop the ALG in my backup class gun, though, I won't be able to cheat at all)....I'm honestly not that sensitive of a trigger guy, but still, there's a world of difference.

Edited April 16, 2018 by TSi+WRX

[THE RZA]

I did say from the beginning, tweaking the trigger is a $50 job from a gunsmith, not sure where you got the idea I said to tweak it yourself.

 

You’re missing the point, I said when I tested the ALG triggers at their factory last month, they didn’t feel much different from a G2S. This is an experienced based opinion.

 

Again going back to my original point where I told BD to upgrade the trigger in his colt, I gave him 3 solid options ranging from $50-160 because I know how little he shoots his AR, and probably isn’t looking to spend $250 on a SSA-E. This isn’t a debate on triggers at all, I’m giving a friend options.

 

And yes, the LWRC factory trigger has a 6.5 pull

[TSiWRX]

^ You're right, you didn't say that folks should tweak their factory trigger assemblies - I suggested that one: because, in-reality, how many "gunsmiths" out there do absolutely hack jobs?

 

Why? Because when you combined that gunsmith statement with "different bearings" as you did, that raised a red-flag with me:

 

bring yours to a gunsmith who can tweak the stock trigger and make it smoother. Usually involves a lighter spring and different bearings which is a cheap $50 adjustment.

 

If they're charging you $50 for "different bearings" and some lighter springs, then that really is a hack of a job.

 

Might as well leave your car with them, and have them change out your blinker fluid, too.

 

You’re missing the point, I said when I tested the ALG triggers at their factory last month, they didn’t feel much different from a G2S. This is an experienced based opinion.

 

No, you're missing the point - you originally wrote the following:

 

 

To be honest I didn’t notice a huge difference between the ALG trigger and a G2S....

 

To which I questioned how the ALG ACT, a single-stage trigger, can be cross-compared with the Geissele G2S as a two-stage.

 

At which point you still maintained that the two are cross-comparable -

 

I just did, the G2S is nothing to write home about. When I had that in my LWRC I really didn't notice that much of a difference from the stock trigger and I put 700 rounds through it. I did the SSA-E last month and it's a major upgrade from the G2S. I would recommend the G2S for someone who doesn't want to spend a whole lot of money on a trigger job, but it being the top of their budget. BD doesn't want to spend a lot of money on a trigger, I would say for $165 it's the best he can get, but if he doesn't even want to spend that much, go with the ACT.

 

^ which I then expressed again that I just can't wrap my head around that...not only in having both triggers right here to play with right now, but also having shot thousands of rounds through each.

 

But then you hinted that you were instead speaking of a new, as-yet unreleased ALG trigger:

 

They do have a newer ALG model coming out that will be $125 and essentially it's a generic G2S

 

Which, of-course, was not apparent when you began the conversation.

 

So, to-clarify, are you comparing the Geissele G2S with a new, as-yet-not-released ALG two-stage? or are you comparing the G2S with the ALG ACT?

 

Again going back to my original point where I told BD to upgrade the trigger in his colt, I gave him 3 solid options ranging from $50-160 because I know how little he shoots his AR, and probably isn’t looking to spend $250 on a SSA-E. This isn’t a debate on triggers at all, I’m giving a friend options.

 

I understand that it's about trying to give advice to a friend -

 

I just want that advice to be accurate.

[TSiWRX]

^ And I should clarify - that's "changing a bearing" on a USGI/mil-spec trigger.

[Penguin]

A lighter trigger return spring on a GI trigger can give some benefits to pull weight, but not much. A lighter hammer mainspring is a bad idea. At best you will have a lighter trigger pull with increased lock time, but ignition will still be reliable. At worst you will compromise reliability with a too light hammer spring that will not ignite all primers.

 

The problem with the GI trigger is that in order for it to be safe the contact geometry of the hammer notch and trigger sear is such that there is a metric shit load of over lap, and AND the trigger pull actually ends up pushing the hammer back against the mainspring of the hammer. Watch this sometime in your lower with a GI trigger, pull the trigger and watch the hammer cock back slightly. You can't have a good GI trigger with correct safe geometry due to where the sere surfaces and hammer notch are located, and still maintain a full power mainspring. You can try to mitigate this with polishing, and coatings, and all sorts of masturbation but at the end of the day it is like trying to turn an economy car into a Rolls Royce.

 

The Geissele trigger fixes this by completely relocating the sere surfaces to a location where the trigger does not have to push against hammer spring tension at all. There is still plenty of surface engagement overlap so you have a very safe and forgiving trigger too.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4MA5OqTsWU]AR15 Trigger: Two Stage vs Single Stage, Geissele and AR-15 Milspec - YouTube[/ame]

[TSiWRX]

A lighter trigger return spring on a GI trigger can give some benefits to pull weight, but not much. A lighter hammer mainspring is a bad idea. At best you will have a lighter trigger pull with increased lock time, but ignition will still be reliable. At worst you will compromise reliability with a too light hammer spring that will not ignite all primers.

 

^ Yup, that was my understanding as well.

 

Which is why I cringe when one of the bubbas open their lowers, complaining of light-strikes, and I see unicorn-puke spring colors.

 

Necessarily, though, this means that there's likely a bunch of bubba upgrades that actually work well (or well enough, maybe they just learned which ammo to buy by trial-and-error).

 

Like you wrote, there's a spectrum.

 

Out of curiosity, what does a lighter disconnect spring do? I've heard a couple of different "theories, but I'd never really researched it, as it wasn't applicable to me (I'm a "Geissele-and-go" guy on my serious guns, and I've tried a couple of others [MBT for two-stage, and a ALG and a BCM for single], so I've never messed with the individual components).

 

The problem with the GI trigger is that in order for it to be safe the contact geometry of the hammer notch and trigger sear is such that there is a metric shit load of over lap, and AND the trigger pull actually ends up pushing the hammer back against the mainspring of the hammer. Watch this sometime in your lower with a GI trigger, pull the trigger and watch the hammer cock back slightly. You can't have a good GI trigger with correct safe geometry due to where the sere surfaces and hammer notch are located, and still maintain a full power mainspring. You can try to mitigate this with polishing, and coatings, and all sorts of masturbation but at the end of the day it is like trying to turn an economy car into a Rolls Royce.

A friend had one of those Larue action cut-away shells, and we had some fun in the garage one day.

 

That's a great video that I somehow missed. I've gotta save that one. Thanks.

[THE RZA]

^ You're right, you didn't say that folks should tweak their factory trigger assemblies - I suggested that one: because, in-reality, how many "gunsmiths" out there do absolutely hack jobs?

 

Why? Because when you combined that gunsmith statement with "different bearings" as you did, that raised a red-flag with me:

 

 

 

If they're charging you $50 for "different bearings" and some lighter springs, then that really is a hack of a job.

 

Might as well leave your car with them, and have them change out your blinker fluid, too.

 

 

 

No, you're missing the point - you originally wrote the following:

 

 

 

 

To which I questioned how the ALG ACT, a single-stage trigger, can be cross-compared with the Geissele G2S as a two-stage.

 

At which point you still maintained that the two are cross-comparable -

 

 

 

^ which I then expressed again that I just can't wrap my head around that...not only in having both triggers right here to play with right now, but also having shot thousands of rounds through each.

 

But then you hinted that you were instead speaking of a new, as-yet unreleased ALG trigger:

 

 

 

Which, of-course, was not apparent when you began the conversation.

 

So, to-clarify, are you comparing the Geissele G2S with a new, as-yet-not-released ALG two-stage? or are you comparing the G2S with the ALG ACT?

 

 

 

I understand that it's about trying to give advice to a friend -

 

I just want that advice to be accurate.

 

I didn't read any of that, you quoted what I said, you know what I said. I said I didn't notice much a difference between a ACT trigger and a G2S, which again is an end user based opinion, not gospel. If you have a problem with my opinion then so be it, because I said the ALG didn't feel much different from the G2S. I know there is a huge difference between a single stage and 2 stage trigger and it's not an apples to apples comparison. In the realm we're talking about right now, I know that BD despises the trigger on his AR, we've talked about it a few times, I know that he isn't looking to spend a lot of money on a trigger because it is not a weapon he shoots much, which is why I suggested either the ALG or G2S since they are both cost friendly choices

 

I don't fancy myself a trigger snob. I never had an issue shooting GI triggers and never complained once about one in any gun I've shot. With that being said since I upgraded to a G2S then a SSA-E in the last 2 months (The G2S is in my .308 now) It's hard for me to go back to a stock trigger