Official Firearm Thread V3

[THE RZA]

If someone is buying 300 (or in actuality according to Guru, 50) all being AR's and AK's, I would start looking in to that person. After the shooting they found out this guy had some mental health issues and his father was wanted by the FBI when he was alive. If you're buying that many of the same weapons in a short period of time, an informal interview with the buyer to ask what they're buying, why they're buying them could tell them a lot. If you have nothing to hide and a legitimate reason for buying that many rifles, there is no reason to be interviewed. Yes you could/should have a lawyer present for that interview, but say you're a gun collector and you bought 50 weapons of various ages and from different periods of time, if you're passionate about collecting and explain it passionately, a detective could tell everything they need to know by your body language.

 

Something tells me someone who buys 50 modern AR10's & 15's, AK's and Handguns is not going to have buyable body language or poise to say they're collecting modern weapons that are readily available. He bought enough weapons to arm a private security detail, that raises a big question lol.

[Sparkey]

If someone is buying 300 (or in actuality according to Guru, 50) all being AR's and AK's, I would start looking in to that person. After the shooting they found out this guy had some mental health issues and his father was wanted by the FBI when he was alive. If you're buying that many of the same weapons in a short period of time, an informal interview with the buyer to ask what they're buying, why they're buying them could tell them a lot. If you have nothing to hide and a legitimate reason for buying that many rifles, there is no reason to be interviewed. Yes you could/should have a lawyer present for that interview, but say you're a gun collector and you bought 50 weapons of various ages and from different periods of time, if you're passionate about collecting and explain it passionately, a detective could tell everything they need to know by your body language.

 

Something tells me someone who buys 50 modern AR10's & 15's, AK's and Handguns is not going to have buyable body language or poise to say they're collecting modern weapons that are readily available. He bought enough weapons to arm a private security detail, that raises a big question lol.

 

Lol, you must not hang around LGS's much. Some of the regulars buy 10+ guns a trip, twice in one week. Some people have money and like guns... so what?

 

If they're so good and can should be able to know someones exact intents and everything - why didnt they catch the Orlando shooter before hand? They came out and said they had investigated him. How or why did they miss that one?

 

But really, at what point does a persons rights end? So his dad was wanted and he had mental issues... that makes him guilty before commission of the crime?

Edited January 26, 2018 by Sparkey

[THE RZA]

and just for the record, I've had the police show up at my house before to ask about my weapons, one of my loser neighbors saw in to my window one day when I was cleaning my rifle, an hour later I had a police officer show up at my house with a report from a scared neighbor that I had an assault weapon. I was happy to show the police officer my FID, a receipt from the gun store & my 4473. I didn't act apprehensive or volatile towards him, everything checked out and told me to have a nice day, he also said my AR15 was cool

[THE RZA]

Lol, you must not hang around LGS's much. Some of the regulars buy 10+ guns a trip, twice in one week. Some people have money and like guns... so what?

 

If they're so good and can should be able to know someones exact intents and everything - why didnt they catch the Orlando shooter before hand? They came out and said they had investigated him. How or why did they miss that one?

 

yes, but 50 guns in a year? when you're buying enough guns to arm a platoon that is enough to raise a question for national security.

 

Again I could understand if those 50 guns were a bunch of antiques and collectors items, but for example if your shopping list includes 20 Colt LE6920's or Daniel Defense AR15's, 10 Glock 19 gen 5's, 4 Sig Sauer 1911's, 7 Century Arms AK47's, 9 Sig Sauer MCX's or 516's....that's enough to raise a question as to why someone needs to buy that many. Are they a drug dealer? are they arming antifa? are they forming their own rebel group?

 

Again a non formal interview/w lawyer present by a federal detective can tell them enough. Also enough for a potential shooter to realize they are on the FBI's radar.

 

as for the Orlando Shooter, yes he was on the FBI's watch list, but was never convicted of anything. It shows that the NICS check is flawed because all it checks is for a physical criminal record, not that you're on a watch list.

[05GT Guru]

Removing constitutional rights because some government agency placed them on a watch list is always a tricky debate.

 

The supreme court has ruled numerous times that enacting ones right is never cause for suspicion. Such as telling an officer they cannot search your car or home without a warrant. Such as owning a firearm or 50 firearms.

[Sparkey]

yes, but 50 guns in a year? when you're buying enough guns to arm a platoon that is enough to raise a question for national security.

 

Again I could understand if those 50 guns were a bunch of antiques and collectors items, but for example if your shopping list includes 20 Colt LE6920's or Daniel Defense AR15's, 10 Glock 19 gen 5's, 4 Sig Sauer 1911's, 7 Century Arms AK47's, 9 Sig Sauer MCX's or 516's....that's enough to raise a question as to why someone needs to buy that many. Are they a drug dealer? are they arming antifa? are they forming their own rebel group?

 

Again a non formal interview/w lawyer present by a federal detective can tell them enough. Also enough for a potential shooter to realize they are on the FBI's radar.

 

as for the Orlando Shooter, yes he was on the FBI's watch list, but was never convicted of anything. It shows that the NICS check is flawed because all it checks is for a physical criminal record, not that you're on a watch list.

 

This is why I posed the question: What number do we raise the flag at? Who gets to pick that number? Are there any other suspicious signs aside from "he bought more then one gun"?

 

Like I said... you dont hang around gun stores enough. And i'd say pretty ignorant if the type of gun matters.

 

Even with an interview, they failed to stop a shooting. Period. You're first claim was an interview would stop it, now you're moving the goal posts.

 

And it doesnt take anything to be on a watch/no fly list. https://www.dailywire.com/news/6879/these-13-people-placed-terror-watch-list-will-blow-amanda-prestigiacomo They say terrible twos, but really a two year old on the terror watch list? I'd have to say this has flaws of its own...

 

By the way... in the interview you still have your fifth amendment right. You think a lawyers going to let you incriminate yourself?

 

I'd say this comes down to if you think a person is innocent until proven guilty, or if you feel someone should be able to lose their rights without a trial or actually being convicted of anything. You'll find more innocent people being caught up in it then actual criminals being stopped with that method of thought.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Sparkey

[THE RZA]

So buying 50 firearms in a year isn't a justifiable cause to interview someone? Again, if you have nothing to hide, what is the big deal?

 

The SEC conducts informal interviews on traders daily to determine the legitimacy of trades they're making.

 

Police can pull you over for any reason they want, happens a lot in my neck of the woods to see if you're drinking and driving. They'll pull anyone over on popular nights; if you look young, your car has a loud exhaust, your car has tints, no front plate, headlight out, it's an excuse to see if you're drinking and driving. If you are polite, respectful and comply with them, you're good to go.

 

Do you think banning bumpstocks is going to fix something like this from happening again?

[Sparkey]

So buying 50 firearms in a year isn't a justifiable cause to interview someone? Again, if you have nothing to hide, what is the big deal?

 

The SEC conducts informal interviews on traders daily to determine the legitimacy of trades they're making.

 

Police can pull you over for any reason they want, happens a lot in my neck of the woods to see if you're drinking and driving. They'll pull anyone over on popular nights; if you look young, your car has a loud exhaust, your car has tints, no front plate, headlight out, it's an excuse to see if you're drinking and driving. If you are polite, respectful and comply with them, you're good to go.

 

Do you think banning bumpstocks is going to fix something like this from happening again?

 

Why cant you state a number? If you cant name a number or anything, that just shows how arbitrary and stupid to use that reasoning. What about ammo? How many rounds sets off an alarm? If I buy one gun and 50,000 rounds is that bad?

 

Thats such the weak argument... "If you have nothing to hide". The Orlando shooter had things to hide, and took the interview. Why was that one missed? Also, if you're a real man you dont even want or need guns They dont have the time to sit here and check every person who's just following the laws but my possibly break them.

 

They CAN NOT pull you over for any reason. Ignorance at its finest! http://www.businessinsider.com/what-rights-do-you-have-when-pulled-over-2013-11

 

Do you REALLY think that interviewing a person is going to stop a crime?

Edited January 26, 2018 by Sparkey

[THE RZA]

This is why I posed the question: What number do we raise the flag at? Who gets to pick that number? Are there any other suspicious signs aside from "he bought more then one gun"?

 

Like I said... you dont hang around gun stores enough. And i'd say pretty ignorant if the type of gun matters.

 

Even with an interview, they failed to stop a shooting. Period. You're first claim was an interview would stop it, now you're moving the goal posts.

 

And it doesnt take anything to be on a watch/no fly list. https://www.dailywire.com/news/6879/these-13-people-placed-terror-watch-list-will-blow-amanda-prestigiacomo They say terrible twos, but really a two year old on the terror watch list? I'd have to say this has flaws of its own...

 

By the way... in the interview you still have your fifth amendment right. You think a lawyers going to let you incriminate yourself?

 

I'd say this comes down to if you think a person is innocent until proven guilty, or if you feel someone should be able to lose their rights without a trial or actually being convicted of anything. You'll find more innocent people being caught up in it then actual criminals being stopped with that method of thought.

 

so banning bumpstocks is the solution? That's the point. The liberals (who we're losing the anti-gun battle 95% to 5% as they already influence schools, media & entertainment) solution to mass shootings is banning guns outright and banning features thinking it will solve everything, rather than addressing the issue head on, which is how did local branches of federal agencies not raise an eyebrow that someone bought 50 guns in 12 months?

 

If that were me, I would lawyer up and gladly state my case. I don't have anything to hide and saying "it's my right and my money, I can do whatever I want with it" is a good enough reason for them to put a set of eyes on me for a while. Why not just comply, answer their questions honestly and enthusiastically so you get them off your tail?

[Sparkey]

so banning bumpstocks is the solution? That's the point. The liberals (who we're losing the anti-gun battle 95% to 5% as they already influence schools, media & entertainment) solution to mass shootings is banning guns outright and banning features thinking it will solve everything, rather than addressing the issue head on, which is how did local branches of federal agencies not raise an eyebrow that someone bought 50 guns in 12 months?

 

If that were me, I would lawyer up and gladly state my case. I don't have anything to hide and saying "it's my right and my money, I can do whatever I want with it" is a good enough reason for them to put a set of eyes on me for a while. Why not just comply, answer their questions honestly and enthusiastically so you get them off your tail?

 

They had eyes on the Orlando Shooter. So what? Until theres a good reason they missed that, your 'solution' is no different then banning bump stocks.

[THE RZA]

I've beat this deadhorse in the firearm thread in the PA many times, but the Orlando shooter bought a gun because by Florida Firearms laws he was able to by proving he was a resident (drivers license) and passing the NICS check, which all the NICS check does is see if you have a criminal record or not. It does not show whether or not you are on any federal agencies watch list or not or if you're mentally ill.

 

I'm not going to repeat my spiel on here that I did in the PA, but look up the NJ Firearms Purchaser ID card application process, all I can say is that under the guidelines and how you have to vet yourself legally to attain one to buy a gun, neither the Orlando shooter or the Vegas Shooter would have been able to get one. Through that you are required to disclose all information about yourself to be subject to a thorough background check thru all federal agencies and they are allowed to search and review all medical records with your social security number attached to it. Is it a pain in the ass and a minor inconvenience? yes. Does it infringe on my rights as a gun owner? No. It's the other stupid laws my state has in place beyond that for how we handle and furnish our weapons. Are the wrong people going out and buying guns legally in this state? No.

 

Call me an idiot for having this view, but since I live in a state that is so anti-gun and live in a region of america that is Anti-Gun, that also has the biggest voice in our nations anti-gun and want to ban weapons all together. I can say if there is an agreement to where if everyone had to go through this process to be deemed fit to buy a gun and then be allowed to carry and furnish their weapons unconditionally, it would be a huge win for the right in the anti gun states like California, New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland, DC, Illinois, Colorado, Rhode Island & Hawaii. I know it would be looked at as a win for the left in all the free states, but the free states aren't the ones with the largest voice and control for a weapons ban.

[THE RZA]

Sparkey, didn't Colorado gun rights get slammed pretty hard after Columbine? Imagine living in a state where our gun rights got slammed worse for things that didn't even happen in their state, nor would have under other existing provisions.

[Sparkey]

I've beat this deadhorse in the firearm thread in the PA many times, but the Orlando shooter bought a gun because by Florida Firearms laws he was able to by proving he was a resident (drivers license) and passing the NICS check, which all the NICS check does is see if you have a criminal record or not. It does not show whether or not you are on any federal agencies watch list or not or if you're mentally ill.

 

I'm not going to repeat my spiel on here that I did in the PA, but look up the NJ Firearms Purchaser ID card application process, all I can say is that under the guidelines and how you have to vet yourself legally to attain one to buy a gun, neither the Orlando shooter or the Vegas Shooter would have been able to get one. Through that you are required to disclose all information about yourself to be subject to a thorough background check thru all federal agencies and they are allowed to search and review all medical records with your social security number attached to it. Is it a pain in the ass and a minor inconvenience? yes. Does it infringe on my rights as a gun owner? No. It's the other stupid laws my state has in place beyond that for how we handle and furnish our weapons. Are the wrong people going out and buying guns legally in this state? No.

 

Call me an idiot for having this view, but since I live in a state that is so anti-gun and live in a region of america that is Anti-Gun, that also has the biggest voice in our nations anti-gun and want to ban weapons all together. I can say if there is an agreement to where if everyone had to go through this process to be deemed fit to buy a gun and then be allowed to carry and furnish their weapons unconditionally, it would be a huge win for the right in the anti gun states like California, New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland, DC, Illinois, Colorado, Rhode Island & Hawaii. I know it would be looked at as a win for the left in all the free states, but the free states aren't the ones with the largest voice and control for a weapons ban.

 

Your an idiot.

 

Please explain how Colorado is Anti Gun.

[THE RZA]

*you're

 

Why is Colorado anti-gun? They don't honor all 50 states permits, nor do they honor Utah Non-Res, Florida Non Res or New Hampshire non-res. The City of denver has banned AR's, 15 round mag capacity for the entire state, no SBR carbines or rifles in general with barrels shorter than 16"....these aren't pro-gun legislations.

[Sparkey]

Sparkey, didn't Colorado gun rights get slammed pretty hard after Columbine? Imagine living in a state where our gun rights got slammed worse for things that didn't even happen in their state, nor would have under other existing provisions.

 

They tried. Denver was the only one that did anything. They prohibit open carry in Denver County. We were a gold star state (Similar to AZ) until denver did that. Then two Democrat senators did UBGC's and magazine bans... they no longer have seats! First recall ever! We also reversed rulings that open carry isnt allowed in parks. Native Coloradans like our rights...

 

We had Columbine, Aurora Theater, Planned Parent Hood, and some random lunatic who shot people on halloween and had a shoot out a block from another high school. That doesnt mean we can just start interviewing people and making them prove their innocence out of fear they may or may not do something. Even if you did, these peoples actions would not have likely tripped the interview threshold to possibly stop them. So instead of interviewing people who are actually going to commit crime, a bunch of people who just like guns are going to be investigated for nothing.

 

Curious... whats you're reasoning to interview people? To save lives? What about the people that die in auto accidents? Are we going to question those who want to buy Hell Cats because who needs that much horsepower when a civic with 158 would be enough? We going to question you're larger turbo purchase because its not for a track car and you may be using it to street race or break the speed limits? Where is the line and who decides it at what costs to the people? Without a solid definition on this you end up with what happens on the terror watch list where 2 and 6YO kids or singers like Cat Stephens are on it in the name of saving lives, while these incidents still happen.

 

I think I'm understanding you're position a bit more... but the constitution still says "Shall not be infringed" and look at how much has been given up. Theres no meeting in the middle because its just losing ground for us. Theres no positive in giving them what they want because what they want is no guns at all. They will not stop until thats achieved.

 

In a perfect world there would be a system where only criminals cant get guns. But instead, in our effort to prevent criminals from getting guns we've prevented legal citizens from getting guns and they've lost their life because of it. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/10/no-one-helped-her-nj-woman-murdered-by-ex-while-waiting-for-gun-permit.html

[Sparkey]

*you're

 

Why is Colorado anti-gun? They don't honor all 50 states permits, nor do they honor Utah Non-Res, Florida Non Res or New Hampshire non-res. The City of denver has banned AR's, 15 round mag capacity for the entire state, no SBR carbines or rifles in general with barrels shorter than 16"....these aren't pro-gun legislations.

 

Citations? Denver has not banned ARs, its 15 round for NEW purchases (we recalled those idiots!) or they can be pinned (and easily removed). Old mags are grandfathered in. The SBR statement is completely false. Curious.. where did you get any of that information? I've actually read the laws as written.

 

Our requirements for reciprocity - Must be a resident of the state you hold you're permit of, and that state must accept Colorados permit. I dont think thats asking too much of someone, especially from someone who says its OK to interview people just because they bought several guns. Is there any state that is full reciprocity?

Edited January 26, 2018 by Sparkey

[THE RZA]

I don't really have a reason for interviewing anyone, but the solution that's being presented to us of banning bumpstocks and banning "assault" weapons isn't solving any problems, rather than the government being upfront with us and admitting they messed up and this guy slipped through the cracks.

 

Until they find a way to combine mental health records & federal agency watch lists in to NICS, there really isn't a more effective way to regulate who buys guns and who doesn't. just coming from a leftist anti gun state myself, us gun owners who do vet ourselves legally so we can go buy a gun, don't see why there needs to be further laws put in to place putting conditions on what guns we can or can't buy or furnish however we want when we've already proven that we're not a criminal or a psychopath.

[THE RZA]

Citations? Denver has not banned ARs, its 15 round for NEW purchases (we recalled those idiots!) or they can be pinned (and easily removed). Old mags are grandfathered in. The SBR statement is completely false.

 

Our requirements for reciprocity - Must be a resident of the state you hold you're permit of, and that state must accept Colorados permit. I dont think thats asking too much of someone, especially from someone who says its OK to interview people just because they bought several guns.

 

NRA's website says you can't own a rifle in colorado with a barrel length less than 16", SBR's are 12" & 14". Unless they qualify as a pistol there?

[Sparkey]

NRA's website says you can't own a rifle in colorado with a barrel length less than 16", SBR's are 12" & 14". Unless they qualify as a pistol there?

 

Are you familar with the NFA? It created definitions of what a Pistol and a Rifle are. These are nation wide. You can not own a SBR without a Tax Stamp. To be a pistol it has to meet specific requirements. An SBR is any rifle with a total barrel length of -less than- 16". This includes a pinned flash hider.

 

So its an incomplete statement. What about Denver banning AR's?

Edited January 27, 2018 by Sparkey
said something wrong.

[THE RZA]

 

Our requirements for reciprocity - Must be a resident of the state you hold you're permit of, and that state must accept Colorados permit. I dont think thats asking too much of someone, especially from someone who says its OK to interview people just because they bought several guns. Is there any state that is full reciprocity?

 

Yes, there are many actually. I have my Florida non-resident concealed carry, it's honored in 35 states and decriminalized in 1 state (Pennsylvania) I had to go through the same vetting process to obtain that permit as I did to get my FID in NJ, I also had to take a class from a certified instructor for their permit. It proves I'm fit to own a gun and fit to conceal carry, I see no issue?

[05GT Guru]

A SBR per federal law is anything under 16 inches and they are illegal to buy without a stamp.

 

I wrote that wrong, you can own a SBR upper, but you can't have it on a lower wit ha stock without the stamp. If your lower has no stock and is considered a pistol then you can have less than 16 inches without the stamp.

Edited January 26, 2018 by 05GT Guru

[THE RZA]

Are you familar with the NFA? It created definitions of what a Pistol and a Rifle are. These are nation wide. You can not own a SBR without a Tax Stamp. To be a pistol it has to meet specific requirements. An SBR is any rifle with a total barrel length of 16". This includes a pinned flash hider.

 

So its an incomplete statement. What about Denver banning AR's?

 

so what do you call this? is this legal to own in Colorado?

 

 

What about this, barrel length is 12"

 

[THE RZA]

also, my apologies in advance for not knowing all the gun laws in each and every state. I'm too busy making sure I'm not a criminal in my own state.

 

Especially after this psychobabble that came out from our governor and state congress president today, about why New Jersey doesn't need people carrying guns:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRDkPqq-cSA&feature=youtu.be

 

Essentially they took illegal gun violence in New Jersey, victims families of it and tried to lump it in with legal gun owners in this state. Which is really grimy because when illegal gun violence is brought up in comparison to the occasional mass shooting, these anti-gun idiots don't care about illegal gun crimes.

 

So again, my apologies for not knowing all the provisions in other states.

Edited January 27, 2018 by THE RZA

[Sparkey]

so what do you call this? is this legal to own in Colorado?

 

 

What about this, barrel length is 12"

 

 

Yes both of those are legal with the purchase of an NFA SBR Tax Stamp of $200 on top of the rifle price/fees. They would both be considered rifles because of the stock - Build configuration unknown. If you buy through an FFL, you get to pay $400, as there is a tax stamp from one to the dealer, and another from the dealer to you. That killed a purchase one day real quick

 

Colorado follows the NFA. The National Firearms Act is federal law regulating the sale, posession, and manufacture of supressors, full auto, and SBR's and such. Colorado has no additional regulations for supressors, SBR's, SBS's, AOW's, AR/AK pistols, ect. https://www.atf.gov/qa-category/national-firearms-act-nfa

 

Its hard to explain because its completely stupid, but i'll try and simplify it. Any weapon which is designed to be fired from the shoulder with a barrel length of less then 16" requires a tax stamp and is considered a "Short barrel Rifle/Shotgun". If the weapon is not designed to be fired from the shoulder, it is said to be a pistol. Things such as a forward grip on a pistol make it an AOW, unless the pistols overall length is greater then 26" or its an angled foregrip as those are different

 

Then you have the whole AR/AK Rilfe/Pistol issue. A stripped lower can be built in any way. But once built into (or, registered/tax stamped/put on a 4473) a rifle, it can no longer be a pistol. A pistol can have any length barrel, Rifle has to be 16", or it becomes an SBR. You can also be hit with "Constructive possession" if you have the parts to build an SBR without the tax stamp. https://blog.princelaw.com/2009/09/01/florida-man-arrested-for-constructive-possession-of-an-sbr/

 

Not sure if you're aware but this has lead to a BUNCH of stupidity about shouldering a sig brace, the can cannon, and the micro black aces shotgun. Its a complete joke. Theres been different determination letters from different ATF agents...

 

also, my apologies in advance for not knowing all the gun laws in each and every state. I'm too busy making sure I'm not a criminal in my own state.

 

Especially after this psychobabble that came out from our governor and state congress president today, about why New Jersey doesn't need people carrying guns:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRDkPqq-cSA&feature=youtu.be

 

Essentially they took illegal gun violence in New Jersey, victims families of it and tried to lump it in with legal gun owners in this state. Which is really grimy because when illegal gun violence is brought up in comparison to the occasional mass shooting, these anti-gun idiots don't care about illegal gun crimes.

 

So again, my apologies for not knowing all the provisions in other states.

 

I dont blame you for not knowing every states laws, i surely dont! But to be sure I'm on top of things I took a course given by a lawyer and local officer. I also became a member of US Law shield where I have a lawyer on stand-by if I ever need to use my gun, and they answer questions during business hours. Free refresher course yearly. I really thought you were just pulling my leg when you said Colorado was Anti-Gun though. I dont know of many states where there is a law making it illegal to register a firearm and have preemption clauses. Denver is our own little mini commiefornia that cried until they got their way and it has done nothing for them.

 

They always lump gun violence and criminals in with gun owners - Kind of like lumping people who buy 50 guns in with that one guy who buys 50 guns and kills people. I think its sort of working and they've gotten in your head . Its you're right and theres no middle ground. You also shouldnt be looked at as a criminal until you've done a criminal act - no matter how many guns or how much ammo you purchase. Glad the cops have been good to you, I always get a nod or a thanks from cops when they see me carrying. But a lot of the cops also dont want to enforce the magazine restrictions and fought back

 

I feel gun grabbers use ignorance that then leads to fear. Fear then leads to irrationally taking our rights. The more open we are about it and talk about it, the less chance of them wanting to take more of our rights, maybe even be willing to give them back... otherwise we start taking them back! (Recalls, Getting to the voting booth, ect). This includes within the gun community. I'm really surprised at how many pro-gun people still say you can not own a full auto. Not saying its easy or cheap, but it is possible...

Edited January 27, 2018 by Sparkey

[THE RZA]

Yeah i’ll look things over occasionally for other states thru the NRA website.

 

With that being said and what I know now, if states implemented an FID where you needed a thorough background check like New Jersey, then were allowed to own whatever you wanted unconditionally, would you? This includes anything that requires a class 3 stamp.