E85 vs bigger turbo?

[scoobyscoodle]

The clutch on my SpecB is finally almost ready for replacement, which has been causing me to hold off on adding more power because I need a stronger clutch to hold the power on the dyno. I have done tons of research but would love to hear people's opinions on which direction I should go. My end goal is around 400-450whp, but for now I am aiming at mid 300's since I am still on the factory motor, and would like to get another 40K miles out of it before building it. I am currently at 40K miles.

 

Currently I have:

 

BNR16G

ETS FMIC

ETS 3" intake

Turbo XS downpipe

Turbo XS catback

DW65c pump

DW1000cc injectors

APv3

 

I have narrowed it down to two options, which are both around the same total cost after tuning and everything is said and done. They are:

 

Option A:

Blouch Dom1.5xtr

3" inlet

TGV deletes

Air pump delete

91/e85 flexfuel dyno tune

 

OR

 

Option B:

KillerB EL Holy Header

Tial EWG

91/e85 flexfuel dyno tune

 

 

Any advice and input on where to go from here would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

[scoobyscoodle]

Just to clarify, the reason I titled the thread E85 vs bigger turbo, even though I'd do an e85 tune on the Dom1.5 as well is because I would run a very conservative tune on the Dom, mainly to pickup some additional torque, faster spool, and additional cooling for when I run on the track. I would not be using the E85 to make a lot more additional power like I would if I tuned the 16G on E85.

[Code]

I dunno how long the factory Pistons would tolerate the Dom on 1.5xtr. If you go option B you will be poised and ready for the Dom 1.5 WHEN the factory motor goes.

[scoobyscoodle]

Shouldn't the Dom1.5 only make about 350whp with the factory manifold? But yes, that is partially my concern. I know that 350whp on e85 is much safer than 350whp on 91 pump gas, considering the cooling and det resistant properties of ethanol.

 

I'm also thinking that the benefit of the ELH creating equal egt's cylinder to cylinder will also make for a happier, healthier motor as well.

[xtea]

I recommend just doing the e85 tune and collecting all other stuff and going all out when you rebuild.

 

I researched the killer b header a lot online before I purchased my full race el header. If you are lucky you'll see a small bump in spool, torque and and hp with the 16g. It really doesn't seem to be fully utilized until you have a bigger turbo. I more or less did what you did with option b and I am still on nasioc 3 times a day looking for used dom's.

[scoobyscoodle]

I am also considering only tuning on 91 if I go the Dom1.5 route. That way I keep hp down a bit for the stock motor and save some cash by not doing the dual tune.

[xtea]

I am also considering only tuning on 91 if I go the Dom1.5 route. That way I keep hp down a bit for the stock motor and save some cash by not doing the dual tune.

 

Do not take my advice.

 

A dom 1.5 on 18psi (better for 91 octane) might feel.... boring. I think you'd have more fun on the 16g with e85. Then when your motor pops you have an excuse to go nuts and have more fun sooner. It's about fun right?

[quick4dr]

DUDE! feed the 1.5xtr from killer Bee manifold is ultimate I love mine so much19psi at 3100, and can be ramped up more if needed. then add corn on top of that

[fahr_side]

From my experience...

 

A 16G will pick up about 20whp from a decent ELH. Easier to hit your power target on moderate boost.

The stock headbolts are good to about 18psi long-term. On an older motor, the gaskets aren't going to last long at all above that level.

Like most billet turbos, the Dom really wakes up at higher boost. It's much more impressive above 18psi.

Your ID1000s might not be enough to support the Dom at higher boost on E85 unless you raise base fuel pressure.

 

From a few people I have faith in...

 

The Dom on the stock manifold drives like a much larger turbo, spools later and hits harder, but gives up power at higher revs. Less fun on the street and wasted potential.

 

My advice would be to add the header to your 16G, run your flexfuel strategy but stick to 18psi even on E85. GTSPEC / Tomei ELH is really good for the money. Don't bother with an EWG, poor return on investment. Ditch the air pump gubbins. TGV delete won't make much difference on the 16G. Get a good tune and enjoy this until you lift a head or oil consumption gets silly.

 

I love my Blouch but like I said it only shines at a boost level that will kill your stock motor. Think about turbos in this range when YNANSB. When that time comes remember your FMIC makes it real easy to go rotated, you're doing a header at this point anyway, and there many more options on a T3 or v-band housing, and they're cheaper than the Blouch and ATP units. Holy run-on sentence Batman.

[scoobyscoodle]

DUDE! feed the 1.5xtr from killer Bee manifold is ultimate I love mine so much19psi at 3100, and can be ramped up more if needed. then add corn on top of that

 

This is basically the end goal, but I don't have the budget currently for the Dom, ELH, EWG, and all the intake parts to make the Dom fit, especially on top of the flex fuel kit and flex fuel tune.

 

 

fahr_side, thanks for the advice, I think I'm leaning towards the keeping my 16G route for now. The reason I want to go EWG is because my longer term plan is to run the KillerB Spoolinator setup, which requires an EWG, and I might as well do that when I go with an ELH. I really don't want to go rotated. But I agree, I think the Dom at low boost levels on a stock manifold will be underwhelming on the street.

[Tuning Alliance]

Shoot us a PM man,

 

We can discuss build directions and possibilities with you and tuning.

 

-Brian

[xtea]

This is basically the end goal, but I don't have the budget currently for the Dom, ELH, EWG, and all the intake parts to make the Dom fit, especially on top of the flex fuel kit and flex fuel tune.

 

 

fahr_side, thanks for the advice, I think I'm leaning towards the keeping my 16G route for now. The reason I want to go EWG is because my longer term plan is to run the KillerB Spoolinator setup, which requires an EWG, and I might as well do that when I go with an ELH. I really don't want to go rotated. But I agree, I think the Dom at low boost levels on a stock manifold will be underwhelming on the street.

 

Are you going to pair the spoolinator with the Dom? I'm severely interested in that combo!

[scoobyscoodle]

No, the spoolinator uses a Tial exhaust housing, not the subaru stock location housing. I would probably go with the gtx3067r if I went with that setup. The Dom1.5 was my plan before the spoolinator came out, and is still an excellent turbo.

[fahr_side]

No, the spoolinator uses a Tial exhaust housing, not the subaru stock location housing. I would probably go with the gtx3067r if I went with that setup. The Dom1.5 was my plan before the spoolinator came out, and is still an excellent turbo.

 

 

 

Exactly. The whole point of the Spoolinator kit is to avoid the compromises that come into play with stock location stock flange housings. Blouch seems to have made the best ones so far but the TiAL housings really are a thing of beauty.

 

 

Terrible things like this don't happen where I come from. Other terrible things happen instead.

[scoobyscoodle]

Terrible things?

 

What size is the exhaust housing on your Dom1.5?

[fahr_side]

Terrible things?

Terrible things like your signature getting mangled when you edit it with Tapatalk.

 

What size is the exhaust housing on your Dom1.5?

8cm2. I know everyone says spool is no later with the 10cm2 housing but response certainly is. I like mountain roads and will trade a couple of hp on top for better response.

[scoobyscoodle]

I get that. The boost threshold is definitely a bit higher, and not as responsive in the midrange, but I like the way the larger housings breathe when off boost, as well as the response they give when going full throttle in higher rpm's. I do think the 8cm is a great balance between all the factors though, especially on pump gas/meth.

[quick4dr]

with my Id1000 I feed my 1.5xtr 10cm/ 3in. from my killer B style manifold EWG and response is insane. I don't launch cause 126k that's not smart. threshold and 30mph take off is freight train status.

[scoobyscoodle]

I need a built motor.

[Rhitter]

I need a built motor.

 

I have one. I need a bigger turbo. I am thinking something around the size of a TDO5-18g.

[scoobyscoodle]

If I had forged internals I'd go bigger than that.

 

The Blouch Dom 1.5xtr is a pretty great all around package, and honestly is just as responsive as many TD05-18G setups I've driven, but with much, much higher flow capabilities.

[xtea]

8cm2. I know everyone says spool is no later with the 10cm2 housing but response certainly is. I like mountain roads and will trade a couple of hp on top for better response.

 

I'm not the first person to do this, but I did it also. I overlaid the 21 psi runs for both the 8cm and 10cm doms 1.5 that pre racing did. Fahr, if you could tell me what I am not seeing here about the 8cm being more responsive than the 10cm cause on the dyno it doesn't look that way.

[fahr_side]

Boost threshold != response

[xtea]

Boost threshold != response

 

Fahr, I failed out of shop and got an a.a. in liberal arts. I think != is a math expression but google would not reveal it's secrets. Boost threshold is the rpm at which the car can effectively build boost supposedly. I found that much out. According to the same overlayed boost plots the 10cm is building more boost faster.

 

Unless you mean to say the 8cm housing can spool up quicker because it has less volume? But the dyno charts are not communicating that. So if you don't mind schoolin me yet again. I assume you know what you are talking about.

[fahr_side]

Sorry, I thought this was common usage. != means 'does not equal'. Boost threshold is the lowest rpm at which the available exhaust gas can spin the turbo fast enough to create meaningful boost pressure. Response is the rate at which boost rises for a given change in throttle input once the engine is already spinning faster than the boost threshold. It can be measured, but that's not what shop dynos are usually used for. To make this comparison meaningful you'd really have to run on the road, give very precise and repeatable throttle inputs, and then measure the time taken for boost to rise from A to B from given rpm points for both setups. Remember I'm a big Blouch fan myself and I am not looking to put them or their product down. I've seen those 8 vs. 10cm2 overlays myself and am very impressed with what they achieved. But, I still doubted the 10cm2 version would respond in the same way on the road. I have seen the results from for example the same GT2835R with both .64 and .85 housings. This is the same turbine the 1.5XTR uses and the same size compressor. Boost threshold between the two was almost identical, but on the track the smaller housing definitely had better throttle response and the larger one had an edge in power at high revs. On a shortish, tight track the car was much quicker on the smaller housing overall, though the top speed on the straight was lower. On the dyno the larger housing might show more torque when revs are held at that level for measurement or revs are slowly ramping up at the preset rate. On the track however, especially in the lower gears, revs rose so fast that the larger turbo didn't have time to spool fully and the car was in fact slower through the gear. In other words the smaller housing made the car quicker in the lower gears and held it back in higher ones, while the larger housing did the opposite. These tests were done with the exquisite TiAL housings btw, not some random garbage.

I haven't had the opportunity to play with Blouch's 10cm2 housing but I doubt it's able to bend the laws of physics quite so far as to give it equal response to the 8cm2 version. If anyone has pump gas data that says otherwise I'll happily eat some crow and beg Blouch to sell me a bare housing!

If I had access to E85 fuel I'd have been braver and bought the bigger snail.