ZX2Fast Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 2005 LGT, 5MT, BCRacing coilovers 8/6k (using settings found here for comfort, can't be arsed to remember them offhand), Whiteline control-arm bushings with caster kit (six degrees), roll-center kit, steering rack bushings, ride height even with the ground from the bottom but the rear wheel is even with the fender and the front wheel is about one inch (maybe a bit less) from the fender. I have snow tires on it now but it did this with the summer tires, but not as much. The car seems to rapidly transit from under/oversteer when pushed near its' traction limit. It wobbles in hard turns, if you want the technical term. I'm not overly confident in my knowledge of suspension but I wonder if getting a larger RSB (maybe the mounts too) would prevent the wobble and give me predictable oversteer. On a fun note, this car doesn't feel or sound faster than my turbo ZX2, but it certainly is. A couple of friends have turbo ZX2's (one of them is even running the same tune I used) and I can just nose them out from 40-80 mph. I was running consistent 14.0's and a couple of 13.9's with a 2.2 60' in my turbo ZX2 so I'm thinking with a good launch I should be in the 13's with this car. It is odd though, since I can drive those other cars and they feel faster. Maybe I need to hurry up and get that Borla exhaust so my car sounds faster to me, maybe it will feel that way then. It is funny, the ZX2 I raced that is using my tune I did in third gear from 40. He started in 2nd, we were even up until 55 when he had to shift and I just kept pulling on him. I couldn't get him to race me from a dig for some reason... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiagoSantos Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Welp.. My impression, without having driven one of these on coilovers, is having stiff springs and big bars is gonna suck balls. I'd pick one or the other (actually, I have.. stock springs, big bars!) for anything other than a dedicated track car. Anyway, trying not to sound like an old fart, but predictable oversteer isn't always as good an idea as it may sound. Think about going through a fast sweeper for the first time. There's a curb on the outside of the corner. If the car understeers, you let off the throttle gently, take some input out of the steering, the car slows down just enough for the front tires to recover and you make it out of the corner. On the other hand, if the car oversteers, with an impressive display of skill you catch it right away, keep your foot on the gas and counter steer just enough. Beautiful.. Now truthfully consider which situation would make you comfortable with taking that corner faster next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phate Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I haven't dug around too much into the suspension geometry of these cars specifically, and what happens when you lower them (other than the obvious bad things that happen to macfailson struts), but could you possibly be hitting the bumpstop in the rear? If the rear suspension rolls onto the bumpstop, you'll experience a sudden change in roll stiffness that could very well upset the attitude of the car. What's important to remember, is that a sway bar actually decreases grip on that end of the car. It's a torsion spring acting against the difference in position of the suspension on either side of the car. Put more simply, when the car rolls in a turn, compressing the outside wheel, the sway bar attempts to lift up the inside wheel. FWD cars with large RSB's will do this, and it's hilarious to tricycle a car like that. My honda did all kinds of weird things after lowering it before I made some changes to get more travel out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZX2Fast Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 I doubt I'm hitting the stop, BC springs aren't that soft, but I'll put some grease on them the next time I drive it to see if it transfers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Curious how it is that you are running the same tune on a Legacy GT and a Ford ZX2. GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnusonsubie Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 May find more luck on focusst.org I think they can tell you more about your tunes and how others edged you it there. 2005 Vader Wagon Material Tests on Ringland Failure Piston I should have held off and purchased a wagon instead of the spec.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derp Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Wait, so a car that is far smaller and weighs less and has way more power than ever came from the factory felt faster and drove better than your brick of a Subaru on shitty coilovers with spring rates that are too soft for driving at the limit? Get out of town. BCs aren't track coilovers You're driving at the limit on winter tires 8k/6k is not a stiff spring rate You're driving at the limit on winter tires These cars are pigs and you have stock sway bars You're driving. at the limit. on winter. tires. I could suck start a snow blower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phate Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Wait, so a car that is far smaller and weighs less and has way more power than ever came from the factory felt faster and drove better than your brick of a Subaru on shitty coilovers with spring rates that are too soft for driving at the limit? Get out of town. A turbocharged zx2 with actual power sounds like an absolute death machine (in a fun way). Less usable speed, more appreciation for your own mortality. Solid weekend toy. And things could be way worse: He could be on Function Form Type 1 coilovers like all the honda kids seem to be running "because they go really low". I doubt I'm hitting the stop, BC springs aren't that soft, but I'll put some grease on them the next time I drive it to see if it transfers. If you're not actually hitting the bump stop, your roll couples are doing some bad things on you. Seriously, try raising the car back up half an inch. Curious how it is that you are running the same tune on a Legacy GT and a Ford ZX2. Pretty sure he just said that his friend's turbo zx2 is running a the same tune he used on his old turbo zx2 (which was tuned by him). Reading comprehension is certainly owning one of us here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated bucko3the7man Posted December 10, 2015 I Donated Share Posted December 10, 2015 What's important to remember, is that a sway bar actually decreases grip on that end of the car. It's a torsion spring acting against the difference in position of the suspension on either side of the car. Put more simply, when the car rolls in a turn, compressing the outside wheel, the sway bar attempts to lift up the inside wheel. FWD cars with large RSB's will do this, and it's hilarious to tricycle a car like that. My honda did all kinds of weird things after lowering it before I made some changes to get more travel out of it. It's not so much decreasing grip on that end of the car as it is increasing the grip on the opposite end. My stock S2000 oversteered like a bastard on the stock FSB, and when I put a fat front sway in, it allowed the rear to droop more in comparison to the front, and thus the car was faster on the autox course. Taking the rear sway bar out while leaving the stock bar in would have had a similar effect, but the car wouldn't be as fast as if I put the bigger front sway bar in. Basically, how fast the car is would be in this order: Big FSB, Stock RSB Stock FSB, no RSB Stock FSB and stock RSB It would likely be a toss up between the second two, but the stock fsb with no rear would be much easier to control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phate Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 It's not so much decreasing grip on that end of the car as it is increasing the grip on the opposite end. My stock S2000 oversteered like a bastard on the stock FSB, and when I put a fat front sway in, it allowed the rear to droop more in comparison to the front, and thus the car was faster on the autox course. Taking the rear sway bar out while leaving the stock bar in would have had a similar effect, but the car wouldn't be as fast as if I put the bigger front sway bar in. Basically, how fast the car is would be in this order: Big FSB, Stock RSB Stock FSB, no RSB Stock FSB and stock RSB It would likely be a toss up between the second two, but the stock fsb with no rear would be much easier to control. I don't completely agree. I've disconnected the front sway bar on my accord a few times, there's definitely more front end grip due to the bar not unloading the inside tire as much. The car is slightly less likely to light off the inside front tire coming out of corners (so I can get back on the power earlier), doesn't lock up as easily under braking, and it rotates better (well enough that I wouldn't recommend running the 21mm rear bar and no front bar on a daily). Ignoring motion ratios: With a sway bar, the suspension on the outside of the corner is compressed by weight transfer, which is resisted by the spring, as well as the additional spring rate provided by the sway bar's torsion. The inside suspension is unloaded by weight transfer, as well as being unloaded by the force of the sway bar. With a really stiff bar, it can actually lift the inside wheel off the ground. Without a sway bar, the only thing unloading the inside tire/suspension is weight transfer. We're more or less arguing the same effect, but coming from different schools of thought. It's been a while since I've re-read RCVD though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZX2Fast Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 Curious how it is that you are running the same tune on a Legacy GT and a Ford ZX2. Super glue and duct tape.... lots of duct tape. Wait, so a car that is far smaller and weighs less and has way more power than ever came from the factory felt faster and drove better than your brick of a Subaru on shitty coilovers with spring rates that are too soft for driving at the limit? Get out of town. BCs aren't track coilovers You're driving at the limit on winter tires 8k/6k is not a stiff spring rate You're driving at the limit on winter tires These cars are pigs and you have stock sway bars You're driving. at the limit. on winter. tires. I know the winter tires are a factor, this is why I acknowledged it is worse on the the winter tires, I can still feel it on the summer tires it just isn't as scary. As for feeling faster, while I understand where you are coming from, I don't feel as much pull on the butt-dyno in the LGT. My power-to-weight is going to be higher and I'm (obviously) accelerating at a higher rate so I should feel that the car is at least as fast. But, it could be the whole visceral experience. The Escort is louder (funny that the ZX2 runs an UEL header so it sounds like a Subaru) and the BOV is vented, the air inlet is open so you hear the turbo. Once I put a Borla exhaust on the LGT, it might *feel* faster because it sounds that way. I can say, I'm very impressed with the off-the-shelf tune from Cobb. I'm going to put the VF52 and RacerX FMIC on it (sitting in the basement), get it pro-tuned and leave it alone. I think I'll be happy with 250-260 AWHP and a strong mid-range power band. A turbocharged zx2 with actual power sounds like an absolute death machine (in a fun way). Less usable speed, more appreciation for your own mortality. Solid weekend toy. It is fun, just the look on the other drivers face when you light him up on a 3rd gear pull is worth the price of admission. I was pulling cars with mine. The looks I would get when pulling a bigger car were priceless. I don't know how I survived pulling a dozen or more cars a year on a class 1 hitch attached to a 2500 pound car. And things could be way worse: He could be on Function Form Type 1 coilovers like all the honda kids seem to be running "because they go really low". I read through the reviews before I settled on the BC's. I needed something that would outperform the stock set-up and be affordable/rebuildable. Comfort also played a role, this is why I didn't get stiffer rates. If you're not actually hitting the bump stop, your roll couples are doing some bad things on you. Seriously, try raising the car back up half an inch. Roll couples? I've considered raising the car a half-inch anyway since I can't get the jack under the car without driving it onto some boards. The only thing that sucks is it will change my camber and I don't want to get another alignment. Is it typical for the front to look higher than the rear (wheel gap) even though the rockers are the same height from the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZX2Fast Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 My friend with the turbo 4-door Escort (we Zetec swapped it, it isn't running the SPI engine) just called me and told me he ran even with a 2011 STi from a roll race. His wife called so I didn't get the details about what speed they went to, they started at 50. He said he ran dead even with him. The Escort is a stock Zetec with a 50 trim turbo at 8 psi, ACT 6-puck, and MFactory LSD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derp Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I read through the reviews before I settled on the BC's. I needed something that would outperform the stock set-up and be affordable/rebuildable. Comfort also played a role, this is why I didn't get stiffer rates. Your first mistake is trusting reviews from the typical mouth breathers who are the type to use BC coilovers. Your second mistake is thinking that your discount 1000 dollar coilovers are going to out-perform a quality spring/strut combination with correct spring rates and a moderate drop. Car companies spend a lot of time and money developing the suspension geometry on a car, so when you slam your shit on crappy coils and then go try to drive it at the limit, of course it's going to feel fucked up, because it's no longer near the factory geometry. Slapping a bunch of 'performance parts' into the suspension doesn't magically make a big fat pig of a car suddenly handle like an S2000. Lastly, no wonder your LGT feels slow. With only an off the shelf map on stock turbo, they're not really all that fast in a straight line. I could suck start a snow blower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 on the other side Boxkita raced with BCBR coilovers (corner weighted etc) My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesleyCrowbar Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Ya. $1000 coilovers are actually ~$1500 coilovers if you're going to do it the right way with corner balancing/alignment/etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZX2Fast Posted December 12, 2015 Author Share Posted December 12, 2015 Your first mistake is trusting reviews from the typical mouth breathers who are the type to use BC coilovers. Your second mistake is thinking that your discount 1000 dollar coilovers are going to out-perform a quality spring/strut combination with correct spring rates and a moderate drop. Car companies spend a lot of time and money developing the suspension geometry on a car, so when you slam your shit on crappy coils and then go try to drive it at the limit, of course it's going to feel fucked up, because it's no longer near the factory geometry. Slapping a bunch of 'performance parts' into the suspension doesn't magically make a big fat pig of a car suddenly handle like an S2000. Lastly, no wonder your LGT feels slow. With only an off the shelf map on stock turbo, they're not really all that fast in a straight line. I never claimed to want the car to handle like a S2000, in fact I knew it wouldn't handle as well as my Escort did on Eibachs. What I am wanting is predictable behavior. The reviews I read are from the 'mouth breathers' on this site. Those reviews are the only reason I knew to get the roll-center kit. I did get an alignment done, haven't corner-weighed it. I know these cars aren't all that fast (mostly the weight) but as I explained before, in this very thread, it is faster than the turbo ZX2, it just doesn't feel that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnusonsubie Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Just because something is faster than another car doesn't mean it is going to feel faster. Smooth power can be faster than something with a rough power band that throws you back in the seat. If you really want coilovers then get some and have them corner balanced. I haven't gotten mine corner balanced but I didn't go stupid low on them and I made sure the spring preload and damping was even side the side. Preload is even all around but damping is slightly stiffer in the rear so I don't have the wagon bouncing butt issue 2005 Vader Wagon Material Tests on Ringland Failure Piston I should have held off and purchased a wagon instead of the spec.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derp Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Trust me buddy, there's plenty of mouthbreathers on this site. I could suck start a snow blower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 And window lickers. GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnusonsubie Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Snozberries taste like snozberries http://i.imgur.com/7rz1BvA.gif 2005 Vader Wagon Material Tests on Ringland Failure Piston I should have held off and purchased a wagon instead of the spec.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 I never claimed to want the car to handle like a S2000, in fact I knew it wouldn't handle as well as my Escort did on Eibachs. What I am wanting is predictable behavior. The reviews I read are from the 'mouth breathers' on this site. Those reviews are the only reason I knew to get the roll-center kit. I did get an alignment done, haven't corner-weighed it. I know these cars aren't all that fast (mostly the weight) but as I explained before, in this very thread, it is faster than the turbo ZX2, it just doesn't feel that way. So I'm a bit confused. You are quoting 1/4 mile times and BC coilovers like they are related. Then there's the noise part that helps you feel like you are going fast. If more noise makes you think you are going fast, take off the mufflers. It's a 30 minute job, longer if you try to remove the bolts without power tools. The hangers are just a pain - cut them off. A couple runs sans mufflers and everyone will think you have a race motor. Randomly lowering your car on coilovers and then getting an alignment is not going to affect your handling much if at all. As derp mentioned, modifying the suspension to much better requires more than slapping on random parts and getting an alignment. Better tires are going to help the most - think Dunlop Direzza, Michelin SuperSports, BFG Rivals, etc. A serious max performance summer tire will change how you view the handling of your car. If you want to experience handling, put on a set of BFG R1's. Even on your crap setup, you'll pop out of your seat in no time. For a different perspective, I use BC coilovers with 8/6k springs. And alot of tuning to get the car to handle correctly. At the limit (race tires on a dry track), I saw a max of 1.5G and steady state at 1.25G. This was with stock seats, so I spent most of my effort trying to stay in the seat. At this point, you'd better off selling your coilovers and getting a nice set of springs/struts. You'll be happier and your car will ride better. Then again, perhaps its your driving style that's interfering with your handling. These are luxury sedans, not sports cars. You need to let them do their thing, not saw on the wheel. Lastly, oversteer is not what you want unless you want the car wrapped around a tree. If you need oversteer, yank the e-brake with your thumb pushed in. it's an awd car which means it's designed to have all 4 wheels doing work, not 2 wheels pulling and 2 wheels drifting. Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobyscoodle Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 What are your alignment specs? If you don't know, then I will assume you have a bad alignment and a performance oriented alignment will make a big difference in the behavior of the car. Also, when it comes to coilovers, the setup is a huge factor. The BC's already aren't the most consistent in terms of predictable spring rates and damping rates from corner to corner, then on top of that if you slap them on the car without knowing how to properly set up a car with coilovers, you're doomed to have a car that can't handle for anything. Corner balancing a car with coilovers is crucial. As far as I know nobody spends the time or effort rebuilding or revalving BC's, so I don't know what to tell you there. And lastly, as discussed multiple times above, winter tires. Fail. You can't expect anything on winter tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoplightAssassin Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 To be able to fix handling issues, you first have to know when the issues occur...corner entry, mid-corner, or corner exit. I suspect it's mostly driver error, but suspension and alignment are also factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.