CEL Misfire Cylinder 2

[xt2005bonbon]

So let me summarize all you did:

 

1. you've changed the orange o-ring type gaskets that sit between the plastic intake manifold and the tumbler valves (TGV) as described by this thread (http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/diy-rough-idle-cold-start-cold-temps-lgt-07-09-155325.html)

2. changed spark plugs

3. checked compression

4. swapped injectors

5. swapped coil packs

 

At this point, the only thing that comes to mind is borescope cylinder #2, leak down test, or perhaps put a brand new injector. I think I've heard someone that complained about misfires, swapped injectors and still got misfires; but then he put a brand new injector and voila. I hope that's it for you.

 

Have you monitored lately your oil consumption? How is your idle for the first 20mn of your morning drive?

[mhempel]

I own a 2008 GT 5EAT and have had similar problems since I bought the car. It only happens in the winter time when the temperature is below 25 degrees. It doesn't happen until the temp gauge is over the 1/4 mark but before the engine is fully warm. I took it in multiple times to the dealership but they couldn't ever figure it out.

 

I have gotten misfire codes for all cylinders but 2 was the most frequent offender. I've learned to deal with it. So far I've yet to get the engine light this winter. I start the car 10 min before I leave, and a couple times I've had to do the foot on gas and break to keep the extremely rough idle from causing misfires.

 

It seems like the rpm's drop too low, could it be the ECU?

[xt2005bonbon]

I own a 2008 GT 5EAT and have had similar problems since I bought the car. It only happens in the winter time when the temperature is below 25 degrees. It doesn't happen until the temp gauge is over the 1/4 mark but before the engine is fully warm. I took it in multiple times to the dealership but they couldn't ever figure it out.

 

I have gotten misfire codes for all cylinders but 2 was the most frequent offender. I've learned to deal with it. So far I've yet to get the engine light this winter. I start the car 10 min before I leave, and a couple times I've had to do the foot on gas and break to keep the extremely rough idle from causing misfires.

 

It seems like the rpm's drop too low, could it be the ECU?

 

read this thread:----> http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/diy-rough-idle-cold-start-cold-temps-lgt-07-09-155325.html

[mhempel]

read this thread:----> http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/diy-rough-idle-cold-start-cold-temps-lgt-07-09-155325.html

 

thanks!

[way2tall89]

@babyblue lgt: I performed the actions from this thread (http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...09-155325.html) so whatever one that is of your question is what I did haha.

 

@2005bonbon I have scheduled an appt with the dealership tomorrow since I don't have a leakdown tester or know how to borescope a cylinder. My question is how much is something like a leakdown test going to cost? How about the borescope? I know its a shot in the dark but isn't it possible that I may have a bad wire harness to either the injector or coil pack? Or would that yield a different issue besides a misfire? If it can cause the misfire I would just need to know how to use an ohm meter right? I thought I saw a thread on here about the right numbers to look for. If any of you know the thread go ahead and post it up. Thanks!

[Oregon OBXT]

btw, how did you manage to get injector #4 out without damaging it since you said it was difficult to get the injector out? I've heard some people who've had a hard time taking them out as well.

 

I have a 1" chisel that I use. Come in from the front of the engine and slide the tip below the injector flange and twist slightly while pulling and rotating with your other hand. Be careful to not exert enough force to crack/damage the plastic injector body. Technique works on all 4.

[xt2005bonbon]

My question is how much is something like a leakdown test going to cost?

 

^I actually don't know how much it'll cost but I believe the test is not THAT much different than a compression test.

 

 

How about the borescope? I know its a shot in the dark but isn't it possible that I may have a bad wire harness to either the injector or coil pack? Or would that yield a different issue besides a misfire? If it can cause the misfire I would just need to know how to use an ohm meter right? I thought I saw a thread on here about the right numbers to look for. If any of you know the thread go ahead and post it up. Thanks!

 

Can't help you much either here . Let us know what the diagnosis from the dealership is.

[ehsnils]

Possible Misfire Causes:

 

• Bad spark plug. (Includes wrong gap and temperature rating) Keep track of the spark plugs for which cylinder it belongs too and compare them. The color of the plugs are great telltales if there's something wrong so just don't clean them and put them in again. If you can - post pictures of each plug with a note for which cylinder it belongs to.
  
• Bad Coil. (make sure that the coils are clean since dirt can be a culprit too.)
  
• Bad injector.
  
• Gasket leak.
  
• Cracked/damaged or loose hose.
  
• Bad brake servo (causing air leak)
  
• Bad O2 sensor. (but that usually impacts all cylinders at random).
  
• Incorrect valve clearance. (will not necessarily be indicated by a compression test)
  
• Damage to valve. (will be indicated by compression test)
  
• Damage to piston. (will be indicated by compression test)
  
• Damaged wiring or bad connector.
  
• Bad ECU.
  
• Bad PCV valve stuck open.
  
• Jumped timing belt. (this is usually causing more than misfire indications)
  
• Bad cam or crank sensor. (usually impacts all cylinders)
  
• Incorrect fuel pressure. (usually impacts all cylinders)
  

Just take your pick from the list and see what you end up with. Check them off in order of how expensive they are to check.

 

As a side note - clean the coils with brake cleaner, not WD40 since WD40 contains oil and makes the coil into dirt magnets and you will get problems with jumped spark way too soon.

 

For the spark plugs - pay attention to the top connector, it shall not be a bare thread (if I remember correctly) but a smooth piece as in picture below:

http://www.bedug.com/pics/ILFR6B.jpg

 

 

If you have a bare thread you are probably not having a good connection between the coil and the plug.

 

 

And make sure that you have the right spark plug too, there are different thread lengths. Wrong length can cause damage to the engine or just bad behavior. The turbo engine needs a thread length of 26.5mm while the non-turbo engine needs a thread length of 19mm. So you can install plugs for non-turbo engine into a turbo engine without causing serious damage but not the other way around. I'm just stating this since it's very easy to make this mistake.

 

The following are the NGK plug alternatives I would recommend:

Non-turbo: BKR5EIX-11

Turbo: LFR6AIX-11

 

In addition to this NGK has proven to be a reliable brand when it comes to spark plugs.

 

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/partnumberkey.pdf

 

(Sorry if I listed something mentioned before, but I just wanted to get as much as possible here.)

[way2tall89]

@ehsnils, Yeah we swapped the plugs from the SILFR6A's to the ILFR6B's. We checked to make sure they work and they are the recommended plug from the manual. I just checked the model with that link you gave me and it does check out. I will be getting a leakdown test done in about 2 hours and while they're at it they are going to throw a camera up that cylinder to see if they can see anything. As always, I'm hoping its something simple like a bad wire or something. It is constantly misfiring now especially anywhere from 30-50mph where its REALLY noticeable. I was babying it on my way to work this morning. CEL flashed at me at least twice on my way to work so I know the ECU knows something is up. If the leakdown and camera show nothing, looks like I will be running down that list you gave me. Thanks for that by the way. It will hopefully be very helpful if this test comes up with nothing.

 

I will report back as soon as I get back from the dealership. Thanks e'rbody.

[xt2005bonbon]

I am keeping my fingers crossed that they won't find anything wrong from the leak down test and bore scope in your car. Good luck my friend.

[xt2005bonbon]

So, what is the verdict?

 

On another note, which compression tester did you actually use? I am trying to buy one but I am not sure which one to get.

[way2tall89]

Ok, So I didn't want to update anything until I heard back from the dealer this morning but my buddy kind of got me thinking. So they ran a leakdown test. 4% in cylinders 1,3 and 4. 7% in Cylinder 2. So yes there might be a small,tiny, itty bitty issue there but not enough to get worked up about. They also said they threw a camera up there to see if they could see anything but didn't find anything. They concluded that it was a burnt valve. The reason they concluded that is they checked the valve clearance and there was 0 clearance and I was told that since the valve was pushed so far into the head it was causing the misfire.

 

Now at the time it made sense to me but after my buddy explained how the valves work related to the camshaft and what not (I know I'm a newbie to cars, just getting my feet wet) a burnt valve seemed like it would give off some other signs other than the valve clearance. My buddy thinks that the valve just might have needed to be adjusted but I also read that big nasty forum on here where a lot of people were getting burnt valves particularly in cylinder 4. So I know its possible. I'm just a little freaked out that it didn't show any signs besides the clearance into the head.

 

I hear back from the dealership today to let me know if warranty covers it. The warranty company I go through initially said they cover it but they have to have an inspector come look at it for some reason. He already came out yesterday to check for any aftermarket parts before the dealership tore down my engine. Now he comes back today to "check to make sure theres a burnt valve" I don't know haha. Anyways I just kind of want to get as much feedback as possible relating to this burnt valve diagnosis with the outcome of all the tests and whatnot. Any knowledge or experience would be great. Thanks again all!

[Max Capacity]

Man you sure are new here.

 

The burnt valve issue is a common problem with these cars when left on the factory tune. The MAP has a flaw in it that can cause burnt valves.

 

Seems like my Tuner was one of the first to find it. http://www.tuningalliance.com

 

My buddies machine shop does a lot of these heads for the dealers in the area. when I told him what the Tuner found, he siad, oh now it all makes sense. I asked him what ? he went on to tell me about all the heads from the dealerships with burnt valves.

 

My 05 has been off the factory tune since 8000 miles. When the buddy rebuilt the heads at 154,000 miles he told me mine were the first set of these heads that didn't need any valve work.

 

When you get the car back email Mike Kinsman and have have fix your Tune. He has a thread in the Vendor Forum here.

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/dangerous-cylinder-trims-5th-gen-lgts-193842.html

[way2tall89]

@max capacity,

 

Thanks for the explanation on how I could be getting a burnt valve in cylinder 2. Really appreciate it. And yeah I'm way new to the forums but I have been lurking for a while before buying my current car. I guess one question I have is that thread you pointed me to specifically talks about cylinder 4 timing but doesn't talk about #2 until mentioning the wrx and sti models. Is it safe to say that even though the timing is off straight from the factory on cylinder 4 that there might be a timing issue with cylinder 2 in my ecu?

[way2tall89]

Whoops, never mind, just saw the thread he posted in his thread. haha sorry bout that.

[Max Capacity]

When I first met Mike, 4/5 years ago he talked about the flaw in #2.

[way2tall89]

Yeah it looks like you got to test drive your car with him and get your max boost up quite a bit. Do I just message him about how to buy/use the TA maps and stuff?

[xt2005bonbon]

On another note, which compression tester did you actually use? I am trying to buy one but I am not sure which one to get.

 

Bump . I forget; did you do it yourself or did the dealer do it for you? I can't believe 4 shops, and the dealer included, around here do not do compression test . What a bunch of bubble gums!

[way2tall89]

Yeah I did the compression test with my buddy. I'm sorry I'm not sure what kind he had though...

[Max Capacity]

Yeah it looks like you got to test drive your car with him and get your max boost up quite a bit. Do I just message him about how to buy/use the TA maps and stuff?

 

I'm sure he has a "contact" button on his web site. Or I'll pm you his email. Not sure I use the same one he gives out.

 

Oh here it is, I'm sure this in not his private email.

 

TuningAlliance@gmail.com

 

Mike Kinsman, just tell him I sent you, Byron

[way2tall89]

Well the verdict is in. Bad news, My warranty does NOT cover burnt valves. The inspector was told in the beginning that it was a burned valve and still approved the teardown of the engine. The mechanic sent in pics, info, quotes, for the claim. Adjuster calls and says sorry, we don't cover burnt valves under this warranty.

 

Now for the good news. Since the adjuster messed up and approved teardown for the issue, the warranty is going to cover labor costs of teardown and build up. So all i pay is for the work done to the head. I decided to get the timing belt/ water pump, and gaskets replaced while they were in there replacing the valve for only a little bit of labor on the water pump. I come out spending less than 600 on the whole deal. Haven't picked up my baby but I know I will be getting in contact with TA about a tune for my ecu. Thanks Max Capacity for the info on that! I can only hope that my misfire problems go away after this otherwise I'm going to be royally ticked! Thanks again all for your help on all this.

[Max Capacity]

Your welcome, Ask the dealer if they replace the o-rings between the intake manifold and the TGV's with the new larger orange ones ?

 

That's something that should have been done,

 

Oh and grease the starter shaft.

[way2tall89]

Haha those were the gaskets I replaced when I was talking about the "intake manifold gaskets" because I didn't have a proper name to call them. I checked and yes they do the grease upon rebuild.

[xt2005bonbon]

I think in a way that's great news that you'll only pay that much for what they are going to do.

[babybluelgt]

I agree with xt2005. That's a good deal especially because the motor is already apart so the labor for the timing belt and water pump shouldn't be much at all.