Scooterman Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 I am new to the forum this may have been covered before and if so sorry, but I am interested to know how the different specs of the GT line up in different countries and why. I am from Oz and downunder the car is a 2.0 Turbo with 190kw (255bhp) and 330Nm(243lb) - manual/standard, with claimed 0-100km/h (62 mph) time of 5.7 seconds. There is only one basic spec in Oz which includes leather seats, 13 speaker MacIntosh sound system with 6 stack CD, sun/moonroof, climate, cruise etc etc. In fact the only options available are colour and really minor after production add ons like mats, headlight protectors, roof rails etc. Price of a GT manual sedan is AUD52,990 (with litlle discounting available) plus on road costs which in most places would put you into the AUD57,000 range (USD42,750!!!). How does this compare to you guys in the US (2.5 engine right) and Canada, Asia and Europe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoundBoy Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 google.com... errr ... subaru.com is your friend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallispec Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 the 2.5GT puts out 250hp / 250ft/lbs similar 0-60 specs. offered in a standard GT model with heated cloth seats, 6 disc changer, and minor other enhancments --also offered in a 'Limited' GT model which adds heated leather power seats, and a moonroof. the MacIntosh stereo is not available in the U.S. price of a non-limited starts around $25k, limited around $28-29k. Canada gets the same as the united states. Europe doesnt get a turbo if i am correct. (they only get the 3.0 engine) subaru.com -- like roundboy said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdw Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 -2.5 turbo engine, -for '06 manual trans only in sedan (dumb) -two basic configs --- regular: cloth seats, no power seat, no sunroof --- Limited: leather, power seat, sunroof It's kind of surprising that, for once, the US gets the better engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallispec Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 It's kind of surprising that, for once, the US gets the better engine. I like the 2.5liter as well -- but you could argue that the 2.0 is lighter and that offsets any power difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdw Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 You think there's a significant weight difference between the two? Part of the reason I got the unlimited was because it's lighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 If we can't help Scooterman here, then we're dropping the ball. Although Roundboy is right, and Subie's website is probably going to be the best source for hard facts. North America, including Canada, gets cars built in the US. Most other markets are supplied from Japan, including Asia and Europe. I beleive Japan, Austrailia, Asian, Middle Eastern, and European markets are all similar, with option and powertrain differences. Some places get only the 2.0i, others also get the 3.0R H6 powered cars. Japan, some parts of Asia, and Australia are the only markets to get the 2.0 GT Turbo. The US and Canada are the only markets to get the 2.5 GT Turbo. In the US, we get the 250bhp 2.5 Turbo (normal turbo, not twin-scroll like the 2.0, which is why the similar power and performance specs.) We don't get any Spec B options yet, like bilstein suspension or 18" wheels. A limited run of about 400 is coming in 2006. Last year (2005 Model Year, now closing) we in the US had the option of a GT and GT Limited. The 2.5i also had those packages. GT had cloth seat upholstery, and no moonroof. GT Limited had Leather, and the moonroof. Black or Taupe (light tan) in either material, paired with any of the Legacy's paint colors. Manual standard, or Automatic optional on all models, otherwise a few meager accessories, like all-weather floormats. (but not mudflaps at first, ironically.) We also do not get the nicer McIntosh stereo. the standard 6-in dash changer with no chance of replacement, and no auxiliary inputs. The North American cars also have larger bumper overhangs, with different bumper beam structures underneath, for US crash and insurance standards, but is the most obvious outward difference between the North American cars and the Rest-of-World market cars (ROW) from Japan. For the 2006 Model year, there are a few changes, such as limiting the GT to the previous "Limited" specification with only the Leather interior, and moonroof standard. interior color choices are much more limited, and determined according to paint color, without the option to choose the other interior color for a specific paint color. The Legacy GT wagon looses it's option for a manual transmission (but 2.5 Turbo Outback XT keeps it's manual transmission, with the taupe interior for ALL models, regardless of paint color.) Navigation, which has been an option in other markets, is debuting in the US. It has been asserted that the source of the US maps are different from ROW Navigation systems, and possibly using inferior data. The NAV system also seems left out of the Wagon bodystyle altogether, and only available on the Sedan with an Automatic transmission. I have no idea why. I mentioned the US getting a short run of 2.5 GT Spec Bs. About 400 sedans, painted Titanium Silver, with red leather seats, 5-speed Manual transmission, Navigation, 18" Spec B wheels (same as Japan's 2.0 GT Spec B wheels) and bilstein suspension, and the same stereo, but improved to play CDs encoded with MP3 files. Otherwise similar to the GT. So far pricing has not been announced. Pricing hasn't been released for the GT for 2006 yet, that I have seen, although dealers are rumored to start receiving 06 Legacies later this month. 2005 GTs started at about 26,245, and Limited specification adds $2,500, to about $28,745. Some legacy GT Limiteds, with added accessories, sticker at about $30,100. However, with incentives, usually it is a couple thousand less than that. My latest currency conversion puts $30k USD at AUD$40,043 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooterman Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 A better engine or a bigger one? The Aussie 2.0 has more horepower (255) than the US 2.5 does! No seat heating available in Oz, I guess most places are not cold enough to bother with that and most would not want it. The audio is strange. I wonder why we get a premium sound system (refuted as one of the best in any car on the market) and you guys don't. Does that mean Aussies are more interested in audio quality than you guys in the US! PS: Thanks for the Subaru.com suggestion but I was not only interested in spec but wondering what the philosophy for the differences is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdw Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 A better engine or a bigger one? The Aussie 2.0 has more horepower (255) than the US 2.5 does! The 2.5 is heavily related to the STi engine so I suspect it's better. It's less stressed at very least. Remember the STi in the rest of the world is a 2L engine and we get the 2.5 which is definitely a strong engine. I know the 2L is twin scroll which is nice but I'd rather have a bigger engine producing the same power assuming no big weight penalty. The 2L turbo the rest of the world uses might be a much stouter engine but I tend to doubt it. It'd be interesting to see both torn down though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beanboy Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Err, 5HP does not make up for the 20% difference in displacement from the I perspective. -B -B http://www.standardshift.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdw Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Err, 5HP does not make up for the 20% difference in displacement from the I perspective. -B Different countries often rate HP somewhat differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooterman Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 wow thanks for all the great feedback. As I said I was interested in how and why Subaru have ended up with different specs in different countries and where they are built may be the key. Good point on the twin scroll turbo in the 2.0, I had not realised that. Perhaps in some later MY's they will have a twin scroll 2.5T engine online. Perhaps the 2.5 is a better option for the Us as there seems to be a philosophy are larger engines being preferable. I also noticed in the pictures that your versions had larger (more American style) bumper overhangs. Some other points on Liberty/Legacy's in OZ just FYI. We also get a 3.0R and a 3.0RB. The 3.0R has 17" wheels and normal suspension. Its has the same interior kit but only in comes in beige leather. The 3.0RB has the 18" wheel and Bilstein suspension with Black leather interior, drilled aluminium pedals etc. All are similarly priced (give of take a few grand). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooterman Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 As I said displacement is more important to the US market. the 2.0 twin scroll turbo is 190kw - 255bhp in US equivalent, and the tourqe is about the same. therefore there is no advantage to the displacement in this case due to the more efficient turbo. Does the US 2.5 do better than 0-62 in 5.7s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooterman Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 The 2.5 is heavily related to the STi engine so I suspect it's better. It's less stressed at very least. Remember the STi in the rest of the world is a 2L engine and we get the 2.5 which is definitely a strong engine. I know the 2L is twin scroll which is nice but I'd rather have a bigger engine producing the same power assuming no big weight penalty. The 2L turbo the rest of the world uses might be a much stouter engine but I tend to doubt it. It'd be interesting to see both torn down though. You may be right about the 2.5 being less stressed I don't know the techincal/design details. However don't they (and have they not always) used the 2.0 motor in the WRC (and as you said for STI's outside the US)? If that is the case you would expect it to be well designed/tested. If only in the US do they use a 2.5T, perhaps it may be just the 2.5i with a turbo added (I don't know) whereas the 2.0, having had a turbo for 15 years may have been specifically designed for a turbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdw Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 The twin scroll turbo produces more boost. That's why both engines have basically the same HP numbers. Twin scroll is nice but giving an engine more boost has its downsides. Most other countries don't demand as long a warranty either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooterman Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 Aussie warranty is 3 year unlimited distance, what is the US? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HansGT Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 As I said displacement is more important to the US market. the 2.0 twin scroll turbo is 190kw - 255bhp in US equivalent, and the tourqe is about the same. therefore there is no advantage to the displacement in this case due to the more efficient turbo. Does the US 2.5 do better than 0-62 in 5.7s? according to dyno testing the US 2.5 motor has more than the specified 250 ft./lbs. on most dyno's to the wheels...the 2.5 motor puts out 193-203hp or around 250hp at the crank. (you loose about 25% through the drivetrain. as for torque we are putting close to 220 ft./lbs. which would suggest actually our torque spec is closer to 275 or 280ft/lbs., not 250. Bigger motor equals more torque. The 2.5 car (stock) 0-60 ranges from 5.6 (Road and Track) to 5.8 (Subaru). These tenths fall off as you add better tires, tighter suspensions, and engine re-tuning. Guys with stage 2 cars are running 4.7 0-60. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooterman Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 The numbers I quoted are Subaru's so I guess you would expect similar conservatism/rounding as would be the case with the US figures. A bigger motor does normally equal more torque, but obviously the turbo influences that too. Take for instance the fact that the 2.0t puts out 10% more torque than the 3.0i in the H6 Legacy. Despite the equivalent performance, a 2.5t does sound more appealing than a 2.0t for some reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdw Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 US warranty is 3/36 bumper to bumper and 5/60 for powertrain. It would be interesting to hear Subaru's reasoning behind having two very similar engines used in different markets. I bet emissions has something to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beanboy Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Scooterman, the 2.5L turbo in the LGT also has the same internals as the STi in the US market. Not only do you have the overbuild factor fom the factory, you also have a engine with exactly the same internal specs coming off the factory floor with 50 more HP and 50 more lbs-ft of torque. Defintely a good sign for longevity and/or those wanting more power. Couple of phsyical differences between the 2.5L turbo and 2.0L turbo in the US. semi-closed deck, sodium-filled exhaust valves, forged rods, and Active Valve Control System are some of the differences between the two, all in favor of the 2.5L -B -B http://www.standardshift.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HansGT Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Scooterman, the 2.5L turbo in the LGT also has the same internals as the STi in the US market. Not only do you have the overbuild factor fom the factory, you also have a engine with exactly the same internal specs coming off the factory floor with 50 more HP and 50 more lbs-ft of torque. Defintely a good sign for longevity and/or those wanting more power. Couple of phsyical differences between the 2.5L turbo and 2.0L turbo in the US. semi-closed deck, sodium-filled exhaust valves, forged rods, and Active Valve Control System are some of the differences between the two, all in favor of the 2.5L -B yeah, what he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Other countries also have different tax structures, which tax cars on their displacement, rather than sticker price, or horsepower, or fuel mileage. Plus WRC mandates a 2 liter cap. Therefore the home-market WRX STi has that. Therefore the WRX has a lesser tune on that same engine, and the JDM/ROW Legacy, Aussie Liberty, etc. have it. Just a matter of supply sharing. Same reason for all the 2.5 Turbos going to the US. WRX STi, Forester, Baja Turbo, Legacy GT, and now the 06 US-market WRX, as well. Single engine, multiple tune, less expensive supply issues. I have a feeling that if WRC raised it's displacement cap, FHI might actually go to a 2.5 Twin Scroll in their home market (Japan) once homologation would allow it. They would be able to get more power by adding the 2.0 Twin Scroll's tuning tricks, and an appropriately sized twin-scroll turbo to the 2.5 liter motor. they might be able to kick mitsu Evo's hp ratings that way. Maybe then it would apply to the US, as well. Although I have heard that Twin Scroll turbos affect the emissions enough to be slight issue in the US, which may be why they are rare here. I don't know the engines that well, but I am wondering what the differences between the EJ20 and EJ25 designs really are. Perhaps it is just a relatively small increase to bore and stroke, and both designs are nearly equally understressed and stout, simply differing in displacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdw Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 I had thought the STi had bigger valves and more aggressive cams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fzanetti Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 I really wish we (in North America) had the McIntosh audio system... Dammmmn it!!!!! Flavio Zanetti Boston, MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooterman Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 Interesting stuff on the technical side thanks. I do not doubt the 2.5 has some serious untapped performance potential. I know the 2.0 in Japan puts out and extra 20kw (+27hp giving approx 282hp total) as compared to Australia due to merely being tuned for the better gas available in their market. I first had a Liberty RS turbo (2.0) in the early 90's and here I am over a decade later with another one. In that time I have not heard of any problems with reliability of the 2.0 unit either. They are great cars, 2.0T and 2.5T both, and we are lucky there are companies like Subaru around who can think outside the box by making practical, reliable, comfortable AWD turbo cars we can all enjoy! PS: I'm sure all the engines have a lot in reserve. Remeber when they were getting 1200hp out of a 1.8 turbo in F1 in the early 90's:D . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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