Inter cooler delete good idea or no

[SSpeed]

That article makes me think that there might be some people messing with cars that don't understand ideal gas law: PV=nRT

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law

 

To keep things relatively equal, they should have watched the MAF readings and pushed the boost higher to reach roughly the same mass air flow levels, given the higher charge temps.

 

With external temps being the same and MAF readings coming before the intercooler/no intercooler setup, how would they have done that? I can see if they were measuring density after the intercooler/no intercooler, then your advice would be sound. But with a MAF setup, the airflow levels would be the same given the same boost and same external temps. Am I missing something?

[boostedgrocerygetter]

No your not this guy is just notorious for posting in threads trying to sound intelligent and every thread I've seen he's been in he gets bashed on because he doesn't like to accept that others do know more than he does. So be prepared for an argument. Although now that I've posted this he'll probably just agree with you. To make me look dumb.

[BAC5.2]

Actually, the EJ22T was THE block to use until the EJ257/255 came out. IIRC, most of the 2.0 blocks were open-deck; the EJ22T was closed-deck. I think people generally put on DOHC heads, though. BAC can correct me on that.

 

All pretty much correct.

 

I was going to do a dual cam build, but sold the car instead.

[hansvonaxion]

Actually, the EJ22T was THE block to use until the EJ257/255 came out. IIRC, most of the 2.0 blocks were open-deck; the EJ22T was closed-deck. I think people generally put on DOHC heads, though. BAC can correct me on that.

 

We got the EJ22 in NA form on anything not an RS.

[meier motor sports]

i prefer bath salt to meth any day. i sure get hungry though

[MDKSDMF]

Who puts a Chevy motor in a Ford? BLASPHEMY.

 

I knew a kid that put a 302 in a 70s c10!!! travesty! at least get a crate 350

[MDKSDMF]

Jim...add all the meth kits in the world....your MT can't touch my 5EAT!!!!

 

I dont do meth, but u havent seen my new setup willie...its prety quick now

[thefultonhow]

We got the EJ22 in NA form on anything not an RS.

 

The EJ22 is considerably different from the EJ22T. Very different block design.

[turbodog]

No your not this guy is just notorious for posting in threads trying to sound intelligent and every thread I've seen he's been in he gets bashed on because he doesn't like to accept that others do know more than he does. So be prepared for an argument. Although now that I've posted this he'll probably just agree with you. To make me look dumb.

 

You have major gaps in your auto knowledge and aren't willing to learn.

 

With external temps being the same and MAF readings coming before the intercooler/no intercooler setup, how would they have done that? I can see if they were measuring density after the intercooler/no intercooler, then your advice would be sound. But with a MAF setup, the airflow levels would be the same given the same boost and same external temps. Am I missing something?

 

Yes, you are missing something. An understanding of ideal gas law and the locations of the MAF and MAP sensors. The MAP is after the intercooler. According to the article, intercooler cools the charge temp to within 10-30F of ambient. If you do not intercool and have charge temps 150F+ higher than ambient, the charge temp increases, meaning that for a given boost level there will be much less actual air mass - which they discuss here:

 

As you can see the TQ and HP down low was still off about 60Ft-lbs and 50WHP. Was there more to go? Yes, we could have upped the boost, or ran it really lean, but there was no way we were going to match the HP. So why didn’t it work?

 

Typically an engine with a good intercooler sees temps that are 10-30F above ambient temp. In this setup the engine was seeing air temps in the 150-200 higher than ambient temps! The hotter air is less dense, hindering additional air and fuel from being crammed into the engine. Based on nothing but calculations, a 2.5L engine with a 75% efficient intercooler, at 4000RPM and 19psi will be making 50 more HP compared to the same car with NO intercooler. With the air being about 20% less dense you would have to come up with a way to get more power (water injection isn’t enough). Using something VP C16 race fuel or other high quality fuels (do to their higher engery value) might be able to overcome the low end power losses, but I think you could still get more by installing an intercooler on top of race gas.

 

HOWEVER, when you actually go off and do the ideal gas law math, to achieve the same air flow given a 150F temp rise, you have to increase boost from 19 psi to roughly 28 psi, not taking into account cooling effect of the methanol. (ps. the calculation is done with absolute pressure and temperature) The Perrin test does not increase boost by that much.

 

If they included the MAF readings, it should be possible to determine the charge temp (PV=nRT), or they could have just used a temp sensor at the throttle body.

[thefultonhow]

I hate to say it, but turbodog is right in this one instance.

[MDKSDMF]

"Yes, you are missing something. An understanding of ideal gas law and the locations of the MAF and MAP sensors. The MAP is after the intercooler. According to the article, intercooler cools the charge temp to within 10-30F of ambient. If you do not intercool and have charge temps 150F+ higher than ambient, the charge temp increases, meaning that for a given boost level there will be much less actual air mass"

 

^^^ AGREE WITH TURBODOG. for a one pass race car, straight meth no intercooler could work but anything else is ludacris IMO id rather do a nitrous spray bar across my FMIC if i wanted something slick on a DD...we used and tested the spray bars on the dyno at UTI and had great results and durability.

[hansvonaxion]

The EJ22 is considerably different from the EJ22T. Very different block design.

 

Yes, and sorry for taking it kind of off topic.

 

As for the original question about intercooler delete, the EJ22T was brought up as having no intercooler but I'd much rather have an EJ20T with intercooler as stock and over 200hp than an EJ22T with no intercooler and about 160hp. Not to mention the EJ20T in our RS's was also closed deck, can be bored to 2.2, stroked to 2.35. The EJ22T is great for a high power build/massive boost but not really necessary for the vast majority of us. So in that sense, it's still the rest of the world > the USA.

 

You can get away with no intercooler with low boost but it's far from ideal. As said above, straight meth might be OK for a drag car etc, but I'd want reliability in my DD. Something like the Monster Sport supercharger for the Swift Sport can be switched on and off, so perhaps that kind of set-up lends itself to the idea?

[thefultonhow]

As for the original question about intercooler delete, the EJ22T was brought up as having no intercooler but I'd much rather have an EJ20T with intercooler as stock and over 200hp than an EJ22T with no intercooler and about 160hp. Not to mention the EJ20T in our RS's was also closed deck, can be bored to 2.2, stroked to 2.35. The EJ22T is great for a high power build/massive boost but not really necessary for the vast majority of us. So in that sense, it's still the rest of the world > the USA.

 

First thing (mod-wise) most people (who modded) did on those cars was to add an intercooler.

 

Which I guess kind of feeds into the point of this thread.

[MDKSDMF]

an reg intercooler just makes sense

[boostedgrocerygetter]

You have major gaps in your auto knowledge and aren't willing to learn.

 

way to say exactly what I had said. Good job. Difference between me an you is I'm willing to admitt I don't know everything. That would be the reason I don't blow smoke in a ton of threads like you do.

[boostedgrocerygetter]

And I understand where you are saying that you need to increase the boost since the air charge temp would be increased to achieve the same mass of air due to it being less dense.

 

But they didn't want to raise the boost level to show if it was worth it to use meth/water cooling over an intercooler.

 

If you could increase the psi with 50/50 why not increase the psi the same amount with an intercooler and recieve a greater impact.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[hansvonaxion]

First thing (mod-wise) most people (who modded) did on those cars was to add an intercooler.

 

Which I guess kind of feeds into the point of this thread.

 

Not surprised.

 

Still learning about all this stuff as you can see. I read that early blocks were at first closed deck because of head gasket issues, but also rally homologation and when the rules changed limiting them to around 350hp they switched to open deck because they were cheaper to make and closed deck was overkill.

 

Also seems to me like US Subaru was operating pretty independently. I can see they may have omitted an intercooler to keep costs down and because the EJ22T had oil spray cooling (right?), but they could have just used the EJ20 like everyone else and had more power for probably the same cost.

 

Sorry again for going OT.

[BAC5.2]

The EJ22T did have the oil sprayers.

 

I think they used it for the same reason the GD+ STi's got the EJ25, more displacement for more low-end torque. American's are used to big torque and 4-cylinders have a stigma of being low-power and gutless. More displacement fixes that.

 

As for power potential, mine made almost 400whp (and over 400ft-lbs) on completely stock heads and block.

 

I don't know what you other guys are talking about. CN of both arguments?

[turbodog]

And I understand where you are saying that you need to increase the boost since the air charge temp would be increased to achieve the same mass of air due to it being less dense.

 

But they didn't want to raise the boost level to show if it was worth it to use meth/water cooling over an intercooler.

 

If you could increase the psi with 50/50 why not increase the psi the same amount with an intercooler and recieve a greater impact.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

My take is that mass air flow is possibly the most important baseline parameter (hence the maf calibration discussion last week). All else being equal, more air means more power. It's very difficult and unsafe to try to cut your air mass by 15% and try to make the same amount of power, if not impossible.

 

The intercooler returns the air charge near ambient, for more air mass for a given boost pressure.

 

The perrin test is invalid because they do not compare or achive equivalent MAF readings.

[thefultonhow]

The perrin test is invalid because they do not compare or achive equivalent MAF readings.

 

How is it invalid? It supports everything you've said.

[SSpeed]

I don't see how it's invalid either. By your own calculations they would have had to increase boost from 19psi to 28psi to make the same power without an intercooler. That seems like a terrible idea...

[sumfoo1]

You have major gaps in your auto knowledge and aren't willing to learn.

 

 

 

Yes, you are missing something. An understanding of ideal gas law and the locations of the MAF and MAP sensors. The MAP is after the intercooler. According to the article, intercooler cools the charge temp to within 10-30F of ambient. If you do not intercool and have charge temps 150F+ higher than ambient, the charge temp increases, meaning that for a given boost level there will be much less actual air mass - which they discuss here:

 

 

 

HOWEVER, when you actually go off and do the ideal gas law math, to achieve the same air flow given a 150F temp rise, you have to increase boost from 19 psi to roughly 28 psi, not taking into account cooling effect of the methanol. (ps. the calculation is done with absolute pressure and temperature) The Perrin test does not increase boost by that much.

 

If they included the MAF readings, it should be possible to determine the charge temp (PV=nRT), or they could have just used a temp sensor at the throttle body.

 

turbo dog is correct on all accounts.

 

good job.

[boostedgrocerygetter]

How was their test invalid. They were testing to see if a 50/50 spray was worth it and they proved that it's not. The 50/50 mix is to cool the air charge in replacement of the intercooler so why would you raise the boost on one setup and not the other. You can have a solid test while changing variables like that. I think their test was valid. The 50/50 doesn't cool as efficiently as an intercooler.

[sumfoo1]

Simple they tuned till the engine knocked and stopped. Hp gives you airflow knock gives you the limits of both the cooling effect and the additional octane.

[boostedgrocerygetter]

But then again they prolly could have seen better results if they had a better setup. They could have went straight meth. And start with 2-3 nozzles in front of the turbine and 2-3 post turbine. As well as making the piping from turbo to throttle body longer. The longer the meth is with the air the better the effect.