xt2005bonbon Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 lwfw ftw. I guess you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurlyOldManMN Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I guess you're right. I don't think I'll go back to a "full weight" flywheel again. It's worth occasionally killing it once/month or so in exchange for the lulz the rest of the time. I probably wouldn't do it if I had proper stop-and-go traffic to deal with. As it is my commute usually just involves slow-and-go, which is actually easier with the LWFW because it doesn't do nutty 'ish when slipping into 1st while still moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Why are you taking your foot off the gas before pushing the clutch? [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dujo Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I didn't know that about the throttle controller, Paul. Learn something new every day. You mentioned that Subaru does this on purpose. What is the reasoning behind that, do you think? What is the advantage of going directly from 0 to 15% throttle. Sounds like it just makes the manual cars hard to drive. Btw, rev matching is a more advanced skill. There are wear and tear benefits to it and it's an important skill in racing, but it's not necessary to get you around town in a daily driver. I don't mean to discourage you from practicing and improving any part of your driving, but keep in mind skills like rev-matching and heel-toe are more important in a higher horsepower car at faster speeds. Here's the best piece of advice I can give that nobody ever told me. Do not sit at a stoplight with the clutch pressed in waiting for the green light. Any time you push on the clutch, you are wearing the internal components of the system. Sitting at a stoplight with the clutch in will wear the throwout bearing. Put it in neutral, foot on the brake only. I used to go through clutches at a faster than average rate. I think this was the reason. I was always sitting at a light with the clutch in and the transmission in first, ready for the light to change, so I can zip off the line just as soon as possible after the light change. ... Hard on the clutch and transmission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexjapan Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I didn't know that about the throttle controller, Paul. Learn something new every day. You mentioned that Subaru does this on purpose. What is the reasoning behind that, do you think? What is the advantage of going directly from 0 to 15% throttle. Sounds like it just makes the manual cars hard to drive. It makes the car feel more torquey. You'll see that sort of setup on a lot of modern vehicles with DBW, a very quick initial pedal to throttle ratio, which then tapers off in a long, leisurely curve. If you redid the tables so that it was absolutely linear, your car would "feel" much more slow. Drive something like a cable throttle 300hp BMW V8 back to back with a modern DBW Legacy, and the Legacy will "feel" more quick, even if the V8 car measures out quicker in actual acceleration. Regards, Paul Hansen http://www.avoturboworld.com http://www.facebook.com/avoturboworld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 Why are you taking your foot off the gas before pushing the clutch? Cause I was trying to replicate what Paul said earlier. It does not slow the car down cause it's done literally a split second before I push the clutch. Did this to see if the rpms would drop quicker so I could revmatch when the next higher gear is selected and clutch is released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aac0036 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I hate to bring this back after it being dead for months, but it beats starting a whole other thread. Anyways, my car has 41,000 miles (ftw) and it's my first manual car. 1. 75% of the time I get a jerk from my 1-2 shift when letting up on the clutch. This is especially true if I have to wind it up in first and shift quickly to second because of a hill. 2. Also I feel like downshifts are only acceptable if I roll off the clutch very slowly. Is that the proper way? Both cases are a matter of smoothness, predictably. I'm definitely not at heel-toe stage yet. 3. Another thing I noticed is that I don't have to push the clutch all the way to the floor for shifts into 3rd and 4th (obviously because of where the engagement point is.) Is this a bad habit to get into, or does complete pedal travel not matter as long as I'm not grinding gears? Hate to sound like I have no idea what I'm doing, but this is really the only place I can ask. I plan on getting a Kartboy SS for fun and to improve notchiness and see if I can get reverse more of the time Thanks everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aac0036 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 To answer my own question #3, I found this slew of replies on another thread: Don't push the clutch in all the way to the floor push it just enough to disengage the trans then shift quickly, repeat. Using this method you will also notice normal shifting is smoother because the power "on/off" between gears is shorter. +1 It also keeps the RPMs higher when the clutch engages. +2-I just wish the linkage of the shifter was a bit more crisp. Still waiting to hear of a very good shifter to come out and fix it. To me, subaru clutches were always a bit different. +1 again... this is the method I use, works well. Any help with the other questions would be much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dbl_D718 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I've had my car (also my first MT) for a little over a year and I still have a jerky 1-2 shift ~30% of the time. It happens. Or I just suck. How do you downshift? You don't have to heel-toe, but give it a little gas before/as you let the clutch out. Otherwise yes, at least in my experience, you'll have to let the clutch out pretty slow to be smooth. Also, learn to heel-toe. It makes driving more fun, and it's useful more often than you might think in every-day driving. MODS: PW TMIC, Cobb catted DP, HKS cat-back, AVO filter, Bren e-tune; Konis/Epics, Advan RCII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aac0036 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I do want to learn to heel-toe, but I've only been driving it for ~2 weeks. That and I'm trying to progressively move the seat further back as I get more comfortable with clutch travel. And I have size 11.5 feet... so right now I sit too close to do any fancy footwork, but I'll get it with time. Anyways, when I downshift I make sure the speed is appropriate for the next lower gear, get off the gas, shift down, and very slowly release the clutch. Most of the time I give a tiny bit of gas too. I guess I just don't really know what a downshift is supposed to feel like. Before I would just release the clutch quickly and it would buck and jerk, but now it doesn't quite do that since I'm doing it properly. I just don't know "how much" I'm supposed to feel, since obviously there's going to be some driveline shunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurlyOldManMN Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I do want to learn to heel-toe, but I've only been driving it for ~2 weeks. That and I'm trying to progressively move the seat further back as I get more comfortable with clutch travel. And I have size 11.5 feet... so right now I sit too close to do any fancy footwork, but I'll get it with time. Anyways, when I downshift I make sure the speed is appropriate for the next lower gear, get off the gas, shift down, and very slowly release the clutch. Most of the time I give a tiny bit of gas too. I guess I just don't really know what a downshift is supposed to feel like. Before I would just release the clutch quickly and it would buck and jerk, but now it doesn't quite do that since I'm doing it properly. I just don't know "how much" I'm supposed to feel, since obviously there's going to be some driveline shunt. There is zero driveline "shunt" on a good down shift. The principles are exactly the same as up shifting. The goal is to match appropriate revs to wheel speed for the desired gear before engaging the clutch. Youtube "rev matched downshift", there are a number of decent instructional videos to help you figure out the technique. Heel toe is just a more efficient way to rev match. The goal is the same. It's a difference between which foot is responsible for doing what tasks. After a while you'll get used to just the right "blip" for dropping from various gears. IE: 4th-3rd is hardly anything. 5th-3rd might be a full pedal stroke. PS: Mrs. Surly recommends not attempting 3rd-1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aac0036 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Ah, thank you. I didn't know the downshift should feel as smooth as the upshift, as logical as that sounds. I'll have to try double de-clutching then. As a driving enthusiast this is something I want to learn, but I've never seen any other average drivers do it and they still manage it relatively smoothly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurlyOldManMN Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Double clutching is a pain in the ass. It's like rubbing your stomach and patting your head if you've been "granny shifting" for a couple decades. Your synchros will take care of that for you just fine so long as you don't try to bang it into gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowImg Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I've had my car (also my first MT) for a little over a year and I still have a jerky 1-2 shift ~30% of the time. It happens. Or I just suck. How do you downshift? You don't have to heel-toe, but give it a little gas before/as you let the clutch out. Otherwise yes, at least in my experience, you'll have to let the clutch out pretty slow to be smooth. Also, learn to heel-toe. It makes driving more fun, and it's useful more often than you might think in every-day driving. I'm a little past a year, and I'll still do 1-2, even though I know "how" I do it. It's impatience. The distance between 1-2 is huge, you have to wait what seems like an eternity both for revs to fall and in how progressive you let it out. The other option is to do 1-2 super fast at like 3-4mph, and then the revs don't have to fall so significantly. I suspect a lightened flywheel would make 1-2 much smoother, but everything beyond that would probably require you to either shift very fast, or to hold a bit of throttle. The gearing is funky for sure. PS: Mrs. Surly recommends not attempting 3rd-1st. I've found if you find yourself reaching for 1st while moving, you've probably actually mean to be pushing in the clutch and coming to a stop. edit: Don't recall if 07 have SI-Drive, think they don't, but for people who have it, rev matched downshifting in I-Mode is an effort in futility because of how lazy the throttle response is. You have to stand on the gas to blip the throttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dbl_D718 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I've found if you find yourself reaching for 1st while moving, you've probably actually mean to be pushing in the clutch and coming to a stop. edit: Don't recall if 07 have SI-Drive, think they don't, but for people who have it, rev matched downshifting in I-Mode is an effort in futility because of how lazy the throttle response is. You have to stand on the gas to blip the throttle. Yeah I can't hardly get into 1st unless I'm almost at a stop it seems, so I can't see ever doing a 3-1 shift. But yeah '07 has SI drive too, and I know what you mean with throttle blips in I mode. I've found that I get better mileage in S# anyway, so I rarely use I mode. MODS: PW TMIC, Cobb catted DP, HKS cat-back, AVO filter, Bren e-tune; Konis/Epics, Advan RCII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 hey! the first video in the OP is me!! haha and yeah, i know i was shifting slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 hey! the first video in the OP is me!! haha and yeah, i know i was shifting slowly. Awesome! How are your clutch and trans holding up so far? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Well, in the video I'm on the stock clutch, stage 1 COBB OTS map. about 6 months after, I went stage 2 and.... then my clutch started slipping, hehe. i replaced it with an ACT HD clutch. it's noticeably heavier, but it also doesn't slip and grabs right up even on harder launches. transmission: i have a whining in 3rd gear that started about a year ago, but the car still seems to be driving fine (no problems shifting, etc.) other than the noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 transmission: i have a whining in 3rd gear that started about a year ago, but the car still seems to be driving fine (no problems shifting, etc.) other than the noise. Maybe too many 3rd gear pulls ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 i think the 3rd gear synchro was possibly already going slightly bad when i got the car at 38K miles and it may possibly have contributed to this whining. took it to a few people and they seem to all agree that a bearing in the transmission is going but i can keep driving on it for now until i start developing other symptoms. the fluid is still perfectly clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aac0036 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I can't believe I forgot about rev-matching. Its one of those things you read about when you're miserable driving your automatic, then forget as soon as you pick up a manual car. My shifting's already improved over yesterday, thanks a lot. Now for a Kartboy SS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farberio Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 There is zero driveline "shunt" on a good down shift. The principles are exactly the same as up shifting. The goal is to match appropriate revs to wheel speed for the desired gear before engaging the clutch. Youtube "rev matched downshift", there are a number of decent instructional videos to help you figure out the technique. Heel toe is just a more efficient way to rev match. The goal is the same. It's a difference between which foot is responsible for doing what tasks. After a while you'll get used to just the right "blip" for dropping from various gears. IE: 4th-3rd is hardly anything. 5th-3rd might be a full pedal stroke. PS: Mrs. Surly recommends not attempting 3rd-1st. This is a good post. Try to think of the clutch as much of an on/off switch as you can. If you rev match properly you should be able to smoothly press in the clutch and release without feathering it. That's the goal. As far as clutch distance, drive without shoes and try to feel vibrations in the clutch pedal. This is the Throw Out Bearing. Press in the clutch and when you stop feeling the vibrations the clutch is disconnected, you may be surprised at how short it actually is! That said don't rely on short clutch pushes all the time, eventually you will release the clutch too quickly and grind as you are shifting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee07 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 I must shift slow then if that's normal shifting for you guys and fast shifting for me will be normal shifting to you Why shift so fast for? Driving from point A-B only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurlyOldManMN Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Why shift any slower? For me DD timing is a function of how quickly the engine spins up and down. I shift faster with a LWFW because the engine hits the sweet spot faster, plain and simple. I'm actually back to the OEM FW now and shift more slowly accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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