Does anyone elses brakes suck?

[lue]

appreciate it....i bled and flushed the brakes three times since 2010 and i have stainless steel lines also...just getting fed up with that sub par brake feel.

[Levish]

big gripe of mine too, probably because of the euro cars I used to drive which were pretty perfect in this aspect.

[matt]

I went with OEM rotors, Super Blue, stoptech pads, and the sti master/booster. Skipped on the SS lines, i personally think there is some more hokus-pokus going on there as well for newer age cars, but i dont have any REAL evidence there besides experience of doing it and being dissapointed and the idea that an OEM is completely capable of making a set of re-enforced OEM brake lines that dont ballon like everyone thinks they do. Atleast if i was an engineer working on a braking system, and i was choosing a line for the brakes i was building, that would be a metric that would rank very highly on the importance level. But on a motorsports car, it very well could be worth it.

 

I hear you on this. Based on my experience with my LGT I think SS lines are overrated even for a car that does casual track days, let alone for pure street use.

 

On the other hand Subaru actually acknowledges that not all brake lines are equal. For the 2008+ STI they list "low-expansion brake lines" as a feature. They don't list it for the WRX, LGT, etc, and they didn't list it for the 2004-2007 STI's. The 2008+ STI lines are still rubber but it may be a harder rubber than what most Subarus come with.

[robinlsb]

appreciate it....i bled and flushed the brakes three times since 2010 and i have stainless steel lines also...just getting fed up with that sub par brake feel.

 

Ceramic brake pads require lots of heat to work well. The softer the pad, the more response.. So if you want brakes that respond like a 72 Caddy:)--------

[AZP Installs]

If you are doing the labor for the MC go for it. Again, i would do that last behind pads, fluid and lines.

 

Lines are never a problem, until they are a problem

 

-mike

 

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[AZP Installs]

Ceramic brake pads require lots of heat to work well. The softer the pad, the more response.. So if you want brakes that respond like a 72 Caddy:)--------

 

Huh? Ceramic pads are pretty much oem replacements at this point in time. They are aimed for strictly street use and do not respond to heat as well as the. Semi metallics do. At leeast in the realm of subarus.

 

-mike

 

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11+ Years Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Subaru Enthusiasts.

Call directly as We carry almost every manufacturer now, so before you buy parts call us.

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"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

[robinlsb]

Huh? Ceramic pads are pretty much oem replacements at this point in time. They are aimed for strictly street use and do not respond to heat as well as the. Semi metallics do. At leeast in the realm of subarus.

 

-mike

 

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11+ Years Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Subaru Enthusiasts.

 

Just providng my my experience with ceramic pads on Subies, Porsches and one BMW. Maybe they them better now:confused:

Call directly as We carry almost every manufacturer now, so before you buy parts call us.

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[AZP Installs]

I think you may be thinking of ceramic rotors for racing? Those are meant for high heat applications and can get really messed up if not used in the proper heat range.

 

-mike

 

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11+ Years Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Subaru Enthusiasts.

Call directly as We carry almost every manufacturer now, so before you buy parts call us.

AIM: AZP Installs | E-mail: paisan@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) | T-1 Certified Amsoil Direct Jobber

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[jamal]

Yeah there are ceramic based pads which generally do not generate much grip or dust or noise and are meant as a stock-like replacement, and then there are carbon-ceramic brakes.

 

There are two kinds of fancy carbon brakes: carbon ceramic matrix brakes (CCM), and carbon-carbon brakes. The CCM brakes are what's found on the 911 turbo, ferraris, ZR1, etc. it works just fine when cold and uses standard brake pads. These are actually not ideal on a race car (you won't find any race cars with them in fact) because once they get up above ~1400F the rotor starts to oxidize and literally just falls apart. normally, the CCM rotors don't wear at all because they are so much harder than a brake pad (and even harder than the backing plate).

 

The brakes an F1 car or ALMS prototype use are Carbon-Carbon brakes. Carbon rotor, carbon pad. These DO NOT work when cold but can withstand ridiculously high temperatures and braking forces, i.e. an F1 car with 13" wheels generating 4g of braking from 200 to 30mph. Also, the rotors wear along with the pads because they are of similar material.

 

 

anyway, back on topic. out of everything you can do (with the stock calipers), good pads make the biggest difference.

 

Cheap option- Stoptech

Expensive option- Ferodo DS2500

 

The Ferodos cost more but have a slightly higher coefficient of friction and can withstand a bit more heat. Don't bother with the Hawk HPS. They really need to update that compound or come out with something new.

 

Going to a fixed 4-pot will also improve feel mostly because they are quite a bit stiffer than the stock sliders.

[iNVAR]

Strange no one has suggested the Grimmspeed Master Cylinder Brace. I bought one, shortened the initial uptake noticeably and firmed things up.

[Swine]

Strange no one has suggested the Grimmspeed Master Cylinder Brace. I bought one, shortened the initial uptake noticeably and firmed things up.

 

Now thats something that could aid in making the OEM pedal less suck. But its costs more then your typical used STI booster and master, and is still just a bandaid on a sub par system.

 

If you swapped to the sti master and booster, you wouldnt feel the need for a gs mc brace. The fact is you recognize your brake short comings, and your money and time spent are in attempt to improve everything but the source of the issue.

[iNVAR]

Actually, I like the way the pedal feels now. If I firmed it up anymore or reduced the travel, I don't think I'd like it.

[Swine]

Actually, I like the way the pedal feels now. If I firmed it up anymore or reduced the travel, I don't think I'd like it.

 

Maybe just because you are used to the OEM brakes. If you are used to and or ok with your pedal, thats fine. It still wouldnt be up to par for those of us who know what a set of great brakes feel like.

 

 

I did the gs mc brace on my impreza, it made a small difference. Not nearly the kind of improvements the upgraded sti booster and master provided for my lgt.

[iNVAR]

Admittedly, that's a possibility, but you should also realize I don't like the neck snapping sensitivity that some brake pedals have. The way it feels right now allows for easy modulation of the pedal.

[farberio]

if i was an engineer working on a braking system, and i was choosing a line for the brakes i was building, cost would be my biggest factor right after meeting the requirements for an average everyday driver

 

fixed for ya!

[Swine]

Admittedly, that's a possibility, but you should also realize I don't like the neck snapping sensitivity that some brake pedals have. The way it feels right now allows for easy modulation of the pedal.

 

Invar, it seems you are confusing sensitivity/modulation with the removing of the mush.

 

OEM brakes are mush, mush, mush, and then incredibly grabby/low modulation/inconsistent amount of pedal travel making inconsistent amouting in braking power.

 

With the new booster/master setup, these metrics are improved. In a sense, sensitivity and grabiness is lesser so, more pedal is more directly porportional to more braking force. The brakes engage more quickly, but more smoothly. So the brake pedal now has about a 1/4" of take up before the brakes begin to engage, you now have a heavier pedal then oem, where it is much easier to control the braking force and rate.

 

OEM has more neck snapping sensitivity once the damn pads finally engage then any setup ive driven on in a subaru(lack of modulation), this is not a good thing.

[jamal]

I just browsed through the master cylinder thread and didn't realized the newer LGTs had a smaller MC. 1-1/16 for me. with a MC brace and good pads I'm mostly satisfied with how they work.

 

I'm guessing the 08+ sti MC would be a better fit than swapping the booster too.

[Drogos]

Cheap option- Stoptech

Expensive option- Ferodo DS2500

 

 

I am ordering Centric premium rotors because I have used to track them and for the price these are amazing but can't find any combo deals with EBC pads. Can you recommend anything similar to EBC Yellow please? I am referring to those becasue these are the only decent pads I know well. HPS didn't impress me in the slightest.

 

Yellows have good initial grab and they don't let go all the way to the end. Very good on the street and didn't fade at all on the track. Wearing fast, yeh but that comes with the territory. Haven't used them in winter and for that I would probably go with any decent street pad. For the summer though I would like to have a good street/track pad like EBC Yellow. Any hints highly appreciated.

[maniaxzero]

Although I haven't tried the STI Master Cylinder + Brake Booster replacement.

 

I agree with swine that changing the pads and bleeding the shit outta the system did little for pedal feel.

 

When I first got the car 2.5 yrs ago, I had oem pads/rotors, absolutely hated the way it felt.

 

So based on recommendations on the forum, I switched to hawk HPS pads all around and kept the oem rotors. I also flushed the system with the super blue racing fluid.

 

I was not impressed with the HPS initially, felt only slightly better than OEM.

 

Now that I've got over 20k on them, I know they will stop the car just fine but the pedal feel is still far from optimum.

 

If you've driven any year 2000 maximas, or any BMW, even if it doesnt improve stopping distance, just the initial bite from the brakes is very confidence inspiring.

 

Now the question is how hard is it to swap out the master cyl. and the brake booster? How much would a shop charge to do the swap?

[OutbackXT05]

Thats my least favorite part of the brakes is the initial spongy-ness. Even after new calipers, ss lines, new fluid, and pads its still there.