praedet Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 This is for a 05 LGT Wagon... So, I do not have the time for a full audio upgrade right now. Eventually there will be a DIY fiberglass box with sub in the rear of the wagon, a Alpine PDX4.150 for the front and a PDX1.1000 for the sub, with a JBL MS-8 or something like it for running TA, etc. I will be putting in LOTS of sound deadening throughout the car as well as a foam attenuator… I currently have a Kenwood DNX8120 in the car and only the factory sub. I have not purchased speakers. I am leaning towards the DLS Ultimate UPI6 component speakers in the front. I plan on using the stock location for the mid-woofer and probably putting the tweeter in the kick panel. First off, is it ridiculous to do the upgrade of just the front door speakers w/ some deadening but without the external amps? I do not have the time to do the full upgrade but would love to have the better SQ from the new comps… Secondly, is the mid-bass in the door, tweeter in the kick panel a bad idea? Thanks for any help on this… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Nothing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dbl_D718 Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 My advice would be to do an amp with your front speakers. Especially if you're going to run new speaker wire into your doors with the install of an amp later; that will be much easier to do on an undeadened door. I'm sure you'd gain some sound quality with just new speakers and sound deadening since you've got an aftermarket head unit, but with an amp it'd be that much better. Plus I don't like having to take the doors apart, so I wouldn't want to do it twice if I didn't have to. MODS: PW TMIC, Cobb catted DP, HKS cat-back, AVO filter, Bren e-tune; Konis/Epics, Advan RCII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiberglassCustoms Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Praedet, No, it is not ridiculous upgrading the front door speakers w/ some deadening but without the external amps. However, the Components you have Chosen are of DLS. DLS = Power Hungry. Replacing your OEM Components W/ a set of Ultimate's will give you an "SQ Upgrade," but if you are not going to be amplifying them, they're may be better options. I had ran a set of Boston Pro's for a while. My Amplifier at the time was a Memphis MCA3004 (Specs: 75 RMS x 4) I ran my Boston's Passively & fed them 75 RMS per Channel. The Pro's were a bit "edgy" for me so I swapped them out W/ a set of Ultimate's. I also ran them Passively & I also fed them 75 Per Channel. I'll make this quick & say it was a "downgrade" VS the Pro's at THAT supplied amount of Power. Soon enough, I bridged that Amplifier & sent 230 RMS to each DLS Component. I'll keep this quick & note it was a BIG IMPROVEMENT & definitely an UPGRADE from the Pro's. I can get into details if you'd like. My point, if do not have an adequate amount of Power, there may be better options other than the Ultimate's. As stated above, the Pro's sounded BETTER than the DLS @ 75 Per Separate, BUT the DLS Sounded MUCH better at 230 RMS Per Separate. BTW, I did try feeding the Pro's 230, but it was a bit of an overkill & I preferred the DLS VS the Pro's at 230 RMS Supplied amount of Power The Tweeters supplied W/ the Ultimate Set or Soft Domes. Generally, Soft Domes = Above Waist, Hard Domes = Below Waist. I would recommend you Place your Ultimate Tweeters either in the Sails, Pillars, or high up on the dash. I have tried all 3 locations & Personally I had the best results W/ high up on the dash. (Tweets CAN be a bit Bright) Also, DLS = Great success W/ Off Axis ^ Again, this is all subjective, but it's the experience I had BTW, I have a set of Ultimate's in the Classifiels & I can tell you quite a bit about them including comparisons VS other Components Tyler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phenryiv1 Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I did an incremental upgrade in my WRX. First, I went from OeM HU to aftermarket (not really a simple option in your Legacy, but telling that for full disclosure). Not a huge upgrade (but I had my reasons, which were specific to the MY'11 WRX). After that, straight from OEM "premium" components to some fairly efficient Rainbow CSX265 components. The upgrade was HUGE. I later addded an amp to them, but the bigger difference was going to the aftermarket comps. Now, as has been said, your selected comps are much more power-hungry than are mine, so you may not see nearly the benefit that I saw- particularly on the poorly-powered OEM HU. Just my thoughts... Patrick Looking for spacers or adapters to install aftermarket speakers in the doors of your Legacy? CLICK HERE or PM me! http://www.carstereoadapters.com./ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 SQ is all about install. Every dollar or hour you put into creating a solid baffle for the drivers, blocking the holes in the door the backwave can come through, killing vibration and keeping the noise floor down is far more important than which drivers you use or even how much you spend on them. Even if you don't care about staging or imaging (like if you only listen to dance music) you are still better off properly installing budget drivers than tossing fancy ones onto the oe plastic spacers and calling it good. Personally, I prefer to use DIY home audio drivers which are perhaps slightly less efficient than some of the car-fi stuff out there, and just put more power to them. Watts are cheap. DIY drivers can be had cheap which frees up budget for power. If you're already thinking about a four-channel amp and digital processing then look at going active. Once you go this way you never again have to work the limitations of a pre-packaged crossover into your acoustic environment, and the whole world of different crossover points and slopes L/R opens up. When you have enough power, you lose the need for rear-fill which improves staging beyond belief. Visit Don Sambrook's site for everything you need to know about damping, deadening and isolation. Zaph Audio is a good start for researching DIY drivers... a few years old but a good start. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiberglassCustoms Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Do your research:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 I'm doing it as best I can... As I said, the HU is already in the car, so this is a "where do I go from here" thing. I do plan active down the line, but I seriously don't have the time for mounting up the MS-8 and amps with wiring now. Especially if you throw in all the dampening and attenuator. And, I think ripping stuff apart twice to do one and then the other is stupid. So, for now, either I add some type of aftermarket speakers and do the work on the doors, run of the Kenwood HU, or I wait about a year and do it all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dbl_D718 Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Just something to remember...if you do a door install on factory power, you may want to run aftermarket speaker wire into the door at that point. It'd be a pain to try running new wires into these doors if they were already deadened and sealed up if you amp them later. MODS: PW TMIC, Cobb catted DP, HKS cat-back, AVO filter, Bren e-tune; Konis/Epics, Advan RCII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 ^^^Yeah, already thought about that, so thanks. Planning for active means two sets as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Just something to remember...if you do a door install on factory power, you may want to run aftermarket speaker wire into the door at that point. It'd be a pain to try running new wires into these doors if they were already deadened and sealed up if you amp them later. Very good point. It's a little tough to run decent gauge wire through the original sleeve, so I use the stock grommets but pass the wire alongside the stock sleeve, in heatshrink tube. You can't even see the extra wire snaking through there and no issues with water coming in etc. The stock speaker wiring is pitifully small gauge and has so many plug connections in the path... you don't want that. Once you have the door properly sealed it is a pain to go back in there, so run the wire before closing it all of. Just decide first if you are going to do a passive or active setup, and whether or not you want to keep the tweets in the stock location in the sail panel or move it elsewhere. If you want to do stock location and active, then you need to run two pairs of wire into the door. Oh, this site has all you'll ever need to know about wire, fuses etc. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Well, IMHO the stock tweeter location in the sails isn't the best spot. If you search some info on path lengths you see the differences between right and left path lengths get much worse the closer the drivers are to your face, so installing them as far away as possible has benefits. Of course you can use time alignment to offset the effects but it's good practice to get the best physical install you can and use electronics as little as possible. It also makes things less ugly for other passengers in the car, if you care about that. Now you get into the old arguments. 1. Ankles don't have ears, heads do. All drivers should be located in the area where the soundstage should reside. 2. The kickpanels are further away from your head than the A-pillars or sail panels so putting the tweets there allows the differences between the path lengths to be smaller and thus need less 'fixing' via TA. Personally I recommend putting the tweets on extra long wires and fixing them temporarily in a variety of places to see what works best. This however also points to a choice between metal and textile dome tweeters because from experience I can you you normally don't want metal domes blasting at your face, no matter how much you throttle them with level adjustment... they usually just sound too harsh that close. The rule of them is go textile if you're mounting high and metal if mounting in the kicks. I can tell you from my WRX install, the 3G WRX having a very similar shape / size interior to the BL Legacy, that RTA on the cabin showed me much flatter response with tweets mounted in the kicks than at the dash or A-pillars and worlds better than the sail panels. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiberglassCustoms Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 ^PLD's The Driver(s) you want to install as far away as Possible is called your "Point Source." 2-Way Configuration: Mid = "Point Source" 3-Way Configuration: Mid(range) = "Point Source" Keep in mind T/A is USELESS W/ Frequencies above 2khz It looks like you are going to be putting a lot of thought into this install. Personally, I would rather wait & be satisfied W/ my Install vs "Half Ass'n" it due to Limited Time, but it's all up to you. -Tyler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Keep in mind T/A is USELESS W/ Frequencies above 2khz Yes, time and phase affects psychoacoustics and the ability to locate sound sources less at higher frequencies, and level matching becomes more critical. There are IMO still very good reasons to locate tweeters in the kick panel area. 1. Through the crossover range your mids and tweets are playing the same signal. The further apart they are, the more you have problems with smearing and comb filtering. Locating them closer makes blending the outputs easier, and make it harder to tell where the drivers are. 2. Having the tweets closer to you makes it harder to hear them both at a similar axis. Have a look at the response curves and you see how your listening angle affects how you will hear them. 3. Glass is acoustically very reflective, and there's nothing you can do about that if you want to see outside the car. Reflections are inevitable inside the cabin but all efforts to reduce the ratio of reflected sound heard to that directly heard will pay off. Very hard to control reflections if the tweets are for example at the bottom of the A-pillar. At the end of the day by far the best method is to try a temporary install in different places with different aiming, but still, certain drivers will work better in certain locations so it's good to have a plan while shopping. Theory is useful but eventually it's your ears you have please, not an RTA mike. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiberglassCustoms Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 ^It's Personal:) & for many, Elements become a Factor W/ Tweeters in A-Frame/kick Panel Area. Also, do you have kids? -just something to keep in mind. If you want to Locate your Tweeters in the A-Frame/Kick area than by all means go for it. I am just noting my 2 Cents, because I was once a DLS User & have tried Various Locations/Positions & have had best results W/ the UP1 Tweeters High up the Dash, but it all varies Vehicle to Vehicle & more importantly User to User. -Double Sided Tape works Great for this. ....try throwing your Tweeters In Spheres & pulling them away from your Dash/Pillars. Sure it may be a Bit of an "Obstruction," but it will take care of your Reflection/Diffraction Issue & most likely make them literally "disappear." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 Good ideas guys! I am definitely not stuck on the DLS speakers, so modifying my ideas for a better, or easier, outcome is highly encouraged... What would be nice about doing a kick install for the tweets is it allows me to play with the location more than either stock or A-pillar. Granted, once I decide not to be in the door, the tweeter wires will be loose and can be moved... Well, maybe I can simply start working on the "extras" that I have to do to get the entire install done. I think the biggest extra that takes work is making a rack to mount the 2 amps and active stuff in the space above the spare. That is the only place I have thought of that I can mount 3 amps sized pieces of equipment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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