sumfoo1 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 The point is that the g/s route, although like all other g/s products will probably have higher quality than many things on the market, it will probably not make a huge difference in power. $/hp you're far better off putting your money elsewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobydoobie Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 I'm happy with my GS parts. But then again I got a pretty damn good deal. PnP coated manifolds, coated crossover pipe, and coated UP for $300 shipped (lightly used). I thermal wrapped them before the install. $/driveability I am happy. Plus I am one of those who likes listening to the sound of in-efficiency. I don't have huge power goals and am content with my car's sound and performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I got a pretty damn good deal. PnP coated manifolds, coated crossover pipe, and coated UP for $300 shipped (lightly used) As the saying goes, you'd have gotten a better return on that investment at a strip club. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m sprank Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Oh, I have no doubt the bigger STi manifolds do something to justify the expense to Subaru of casting something different. I just can't see it in my logs. *shrug* I was referring to GS specifically. Never measured STi manifolds. But interesting find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobydoobie Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 As the saying goes, you'd have gotten a better return on that investment at a strip club. Good thing it's my money and car and not yours then right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I was referring to GS specifically. Never measured STi manifolds. But interesting find. What is really interesting is that Subaru went to the trouble and expense of designing and manufacturing these manifolds just for the 2.5 liter STi models (all other EJ25* turbo models use a small-bore manifold like all the EJ20* turbo cars) and then mated them to the same crossover and catless uppipes used on all other turbo models. You would assume that they have used bigger manifolds for performance reasons, even though I couldn't measure any gain from using them. The fact that they used the same crossover pipe as all other turbo models suggests there is nothing to be gained by using a larger one. It would have been so easy and cheap for Subaru to make a bigger crossover pipe but they didn't. While porting the non-STi manifolds can be done at home with a die grinder, even using a flexible drive you cannot get all the way down the runners to hog them out. The STi manifolds are big-bore all the way through, require no porting, bolt straight up and are available for next to nothing. The STi manifold has slightly longer loops for the passenger side primaries and the bends are not so tight as they double back. Obviously this also increases total volume in the manifold. No offense to GS but I don't see the point of spending $300 for ported stock manifolds and the crossover pipe doesn't make sense at any price. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 So by your logic of reasoning, we shouldn't get a gain in horsepower from changing any of the exhaust pipes. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRSCobra Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 So by your logic of reasoning, we shouldn't get a gain in horsepower from changing any of the exhaust pipes. Isn't that the generally accepted belief on this forum? Apparently the stock catback can handle 1000whp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 So by your logic of reasoning, we shouldn't get a gain in horsepower from changing any of the exhaust pipes. I'm not going to play this game where you put words in my mouth and I explain again what I mean. I think everyone else got my point the first time. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 You would assume that they have used bigger manifolds for performance reasons, even though I couldn't measure any gain from using them. The fact that they used the same crossover pipe as all other turbo models suggests there is nothing to be gained by using a larger one. It would have been so easy and cheap for Subaru to make a bigger crossover pipe but they didn't. I don't have to put words in your mouth. You said them yourself. The STI manifolds aren't any different from the others. The only Subarus that use different cast pieces are a few years of WRX and Foresters. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjweb Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 I was contemplating PnP versus EL and after speaking with Suba Performance here in Denver, they convinced me PnP is a cheaper and longer lasting mod. Having built numerous cars, including their own Rally car, I trust their opinion and after having installed both applications they stated that the GS PnP does give decent gains over stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 The STI manifolds aren't any different from the others. The only Subarus that use different cast pieces are a few years of WRX and Foresters. That may be your opinion but if you had actually measured them or compared them side by side like I have, you'd know this is not the case. The fact is these parts only show up on STi models. RH: http://opposedforces.com/parts/info/14010AA160/ LH: http://opposedforces.com/parts/info/14023AA101/ The WRX manifolds with the skinnier runners are indeed found on a great many other cars, LGT included. RH: http://opposedforces.com/parts/info/14010AA102/ LH: http://opposedforces.com/parts/info/14023AA020/ While fitting them didn't help in any measurable way, I'd recommend this path over ported stockers because a used pair should be much cheaper than a pair bought from GS. Perhaps there are gains if using a bigger turbo. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 08 STI Fuel Rails are 100% Identical to 08 LGT Fuel Rails. They have two different part numbers and the LGT rails cost about $100 more for some reason. Does this mean they are different in some measurable way? I can't find the difference. Just because they have different part numbers doesn't mean they are different enough to matter. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Just because they have different part numbers doesn't mean they are different enough to matter. Clutching at straws much? I have had both parts on the bench together and they are obviously different. I should have just taken some photos, but wait... someone else did and I saved the image. http://i.imgur.com/UGBfg.jpg You're a knowledgeable guy but you can't always be right. I just happened to stumble over some posts from the FXT guys who had run STi manifolds and seen gains from that. I also would have just assumed Subaru would use the same parts on all the EJ25* turbo models. I try not to push my assumptions as fact. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Ok, so that's comparing the FXT manifold to the manifold the rest of us use. Two manifolds. A few years of WRX and FXT, and then one for the rest of the models. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Ok, so that's comparing the FXT manifold to the manifold the rest of us use. Two manifolds. A few years of WRX and FXT, and then one for the rest of the models. I know you have your grassy knoll theory and the parts are the same in your mind. You are wrong but I give up with you. For anyone else who actually cares about it... Just looking at the RH side items, 14010AA102 is the WRX/LGT/FXT item and 14010AA131 is the STi part. The latter item is ONLY fitted to EJ257 STi models. I had the '08 GH8 and '08 GRB manifolds side by side on the bench and they are different. The part numbers are different and so are the parts. I'm out. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 You are apparently the only person who has noticed this so far. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobydoobie Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 mweiner2 is correct. All 02-05 WRX, 08+ WRX, and all LGT/STI models use the same exhaust manifold. 06-07 WRX and FXT uses a different one. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumfoo1 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 keep in mind the 05/06 engine is an sti engine.... with a different part number Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 mweiner2 is correct. All 02-05 WRX, 08+ WRX, and all LGT/STI models use the same exhaust manifold. 06-07 WRX and FXT uses a different one. Simple as that. They are different and the part numbers show this. The STi items were never installed on other models. WRX has kept the same part since '02. LGT has kept the same part since '05. FXT only got this manifold in '08 when it went to the plastic intake, same time as the GH8 WRX. Here are the applications just for 14010AA102, the RH manifold: http://i.imgur.com/ARgyk.png Note there is not one single STi trim model in there but all WRX and LGT models, even the Spec B, are there. The obvious omission from that list is the early FXT. Here are the applications for 14010AA160, again the RH manifold: http://i.imgur.com/RJgXg.png GRB-specific manifold, no other applications. Here are applications for 14010AA131, again the RH manifold: http://i.imgur.com/6VU0j.png Note again the only applications for this part are GDB STi models, all the way back to 2004. keep in mind the 05/06 engine is an sti engine.... with a different part number Still has different manifolds. '04/'05 FXT also had an EJ257 but it definitely had different manifolds. Four possibilities here. 1. Despite all my years in uni and 30 years working as an engineer, I cannot see that two parts are identical or make accurate measurements. 2. I'm lying about the parts looking and measuring differently, Subaru deliberately used different numbers on several identical parts for some unknown purpose. 3. The STi manifolds I have came from an EDM car but the VIN identifies it as a GRF, which AFAIK is JDM. JDM manifolds are different. 4. The parts really are different, just like the part numbers and my eyes say. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjweb Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Wrong. part number 14010AA160 was used on STI and WRX and LGT. Europe/impreza/G11/usage info This site lists many different part numbers for the same part throughout the years for sti, wrx, LGT, forester, outback, etc. I find it impossible to believe that Subaru made so many variations of the same part. In fact, the exhaust manifold that Grimmspeed sent me is originally off a who knows what. However, a reference shows that it could have been off a GT, WRX-RA, or STI. http://opposedforces.com/parts/info/14010AA081/ Thats two manifolds off your site that were used on both WRX and STI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 http://opposedforces.com/parts/ This site lists many different part numbers for the same part throughout the years for sti, wrx, LGT, forester, outback, etc. I find it impossible to believe that Subaru made so many variations of the same part. Just because most of them are interchangeable doesn't mean they are the same. Nor does your disbelief. Why is it easier to believe that they made one part with seventy two different part numbers than that they made seventy two different parts? Do you realize from a manufacturing point of view what a logistics nightmare it is to have duplicate part numbers for identical items? I know they do this sometimes, but not on the scale you are suggesting. These two both fit any turbo 2.5 Subaru and bolt right up to any and all crossover pipes and uppipes. Are they the same? http://i.imgur.com/UGBfg.jpg In fact, the exhaust manifold that Grimmspeed sent me is originally off a who knows what. However, a reference shows that it could have been off a GT, WRX-RA, or STI. http://opposedforces.com/parts/info/14010AA081/ This leads me to believe that there is no difference and that they are all the same part 141010AA081 is a manifold designed for early EJ205 engines and the 'STi' recipients you mention were only Taiwan market Impreza GTs. 'Ta Ching' was the Taiwanese partner of Subaru where they assembled Imprezas and Justys for the local market. The 'STi version' mentioned there had the inverted KYB struts, a special blue interior, v.5 wing and Sonic Yellow paint. Otherwise it had the same 213hp EJ205 with a coil pack and TD04 turbo as the regular Impreza GT models. IOW, STi styling / suspension package but definitely not an STi engine. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorbrody Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Man, I wish SOA could chime in on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Lots of part numbers, only two physical parts though...... Pictures of only 2 different ones.... Where is this going..... My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackfortune Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Just put on a EL header....and be done with it....lol.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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