jim1969 Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Time to replace the Legacy. I'm between these two vehicles but concerned about their AWD systems. The volvo is FWD based and the infinit is RWD based. Any opinions or real world experience with both of these in the wet and in the snowy/slushy stuff? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Marker Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I love our S60 T6. It's really comfortable, tight and plenty of luxury. It belongs to my fiancé, but I get to drive it on weekends. She drove the G37x. It was nice but she didn't love it. There was something about it that wasn't very sporty. On a totally different point; there are just too many out there as the G is Infiniti's bread and butter car. Although I do like that it is RWD biased. Truth be told, I didn't know the Volvo was FWD biased. It is a blast to drive and handles great in the corners. What we love about the T6 is the inline 6 turbo runs on regular. The 5 yr warranty and covered maintenance is a huge plus too. We just felt that the Volvo was a better fit for her. We got it in April, so it hasn't seen snow yet. I'm hoping the AWD fairs as well as my 3.6R. I would def consider an S60R if I was in the market. We may replace the Legacy in 5yrs with a Volvo XC-60R.... Not sure if I want to drive a small SUV daily. 2011 Volvo S60T6 & 2013 Volvo XC60T6 Polestar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I'd get the Infiniti. The front-lit gauges in the S60R bother me to no end, and they are remarkably slow for having 300hp. [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1969 Posted September 17, 2011 Author Share Posted September 17, 2011 I'd get the Infiniti. The front-lit gauges in the S60R bother me to no end, and they are remarkably slow for having 300hp. The R-design is 325hp/354ft.lbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Marker Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I think the problem is that they weight a lot at 3877 lbs. 0-60 ~6.5 seconds 2011 3.6R is 3557. 0-60 ~ 7 seconds 2011 Volvo S60T6 & 2013 Volvo XC60T6 Polestar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I was thinking of the older S/V-R options. I don't know what they changed in the new version, I just know the older ones were rubbish. [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1969 Posted September 17, 2011 Author Share Posted September 17, 2011 http://www.swedespeed.com/artman2/publish/Reviews_and_Road_Tests/First_Drive_2012_Volvo_S60_R-Design.html 0-60 is reported at 5.5 sec on the R-design, 5.8 on the regular S60 T6. Faster than you'd think with the weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05GT Guru Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I would get the volvo. Too many g35/g37 around. They are ok cars but are soo common, also the transmissions that nissan uses are weak sauce. The volvo seems much cooler to me than a common car with v6 that makes the trq of a baby racoon until 5krpms. Atleast it feels like it has nothing under 5krpms IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodax Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Sometimes I wonder if AWD is necessary in any conditions; I have seen BMW driving up snowy hills. In any case, I would go with the Infiniti. I think they just look better and built better. Plus I am a big fan of their huge N/A engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Marker Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Sometimes I wonder if AWD is necessary in any conditions; I have seen BMW driving up snowy hills. In any case, I would go with the Infiniti. I think they just look better and built better. Plus I am a big fan of their huge N/A engines. I've seen a 328i coupe have a hard time driving straight on a flat road last winter. His rear kept kicking out and he wasn't even going that fast. He must have not put on any winters.... 2011 Volvo S60T6 & 2013 Volvo XC60T6 Polestar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodax Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I've seen a 328i coupe have a hard time driving straight on a flat road last winter. His rear kept kicking out and he wasn't even going that fast. He must have not put on any winters.... Maybe the owner didn't turn off the traction control. I heard the traction control kinda messes up the car in the snow for BMW. Honestly, I am also considering jumping to a BMW myself. So I might be biased about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05GT Guru Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Sometimes I wonder if AWD is necessary in any conditions; I have seen BMW driving up snowy hills. In any case, I would go with the Infiniti. I think they just look better and built better. Plus I am a big fan of their huge N/A engines. Huge NA engine?:lol: I have never liked the VQ engines they always felt slow to me. I DD a 350z for 2 months and it never wowed me AWD is a great advantage. But RWD cars can do well with snow tires. A bmw with all seasons will suffer compared to a AWD car with all seasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1anatic Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 37X and supercharge it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Holy crap, I just looked at the new S60-R. That's an awful lot of dough for a Volvo... [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Marker Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Holy crap, I just looked at the new S60-R. That's an awful lot of dough for a Volvo... Give it some time for incentives. We got our 2011 S60 T6 for $3k under invoice. 2011 Volvo S60T6 & 2013 Volvo XC60T6 Polestar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kario Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Yesterday I have driven a new G37x. I own a 06 3.0 legacy and have driven '05 spec-b and new outback 3.6 and previous generation outbacks. All in European spec. I have not driven new legacy but if ride improvement is similar to last generation outback vs current than I would pick a 3.6 Legacy over G37. G37 is a nice car but it does not handle near as good as previous generation legacy not to say a spec-b so I think that current generation legacy would easy out handle G37. However G37 has a much firmer suspension than legacy and it might sometimes feel like its more controlled. I would but a 3.6 legacy and upgrade sway bars. This way I would end with a more comfortable and better handling car than G37. Lagacy have also a better AWD system then G37. If your are deciding only Volvo vs G37 than G37 is a MUCH better car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS5689 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I looked at the previous generation S60R while shopping for my LGT and hated it. Now that the new generation is out, it's a different story. I have a few friends who own/owned Volvos and they've had nothing but problems with them. The majority of these problems even caused the dealerships to say "sorry, we can't figure it out." That right there turns me away from ever going near a Volvo. My friend had one that would randomly not start. Key in, turn it and nothing would happen. No clicks, no turn over, nothing! After trips to several dealers and inspections by Volvo, he said screw it, and sold it for a Legacy SpecB. I've seen nothing but problems from my friends who own Volvos. Although I have a neighbor who swears by Volvos (and Subarus for that matter). Every time she buys a new car it's a Volvo and a Subaru. She loves her S60R. We own a G37X, so I may be a little biased here. I really do like it. It's not quite as "hard" as the RWD Sport 6MT models, but it does a great job of blending BMW-like sport with luxury at a great price. The AWD system has been pretty good in the snow, it's the tires that are the biggest limiting factor. Why do so many cars come with bad OEM tires? We haven't had a single issue with our G37X, it's been totally reliable. The G feels far more planted on the road than my SpecB and has far less body roll. The steering is more communicative, responds better and has a better on-center feel than the SpecB as well. I don't know why Kario says the Legacy is a better handler in the post above me, because I don't feel that way. My buddy who sold his Volvo for the SpecB also owns a G37X and says the same thing -- the G is the better handling car. Look at skidpad numbers as well, the G holds on longer. The rest is a matter of opinion, I suppose, but I would drive them back-to-back, I bet you'll find the G feels more stable and planted -- although you can tell you're hustling around a heavy sedan. The gobs of torque down low is also nice. Ours is a fully loaded G37X minus sport package and we got the price down about $6,000 on it (if I remember correctly). We did have some incentives like Infiniti loyalty and a few others, but we got a great deal on the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1969 Posted September 24, 2011 Author Share Posted September 24, 2011 I drove the TL SH-AWD, CTS 4, G37xS and the S60 R-Design. I really don't love any of them for different reasons. TL: exterior styling is better on the 2012 but not great. Interior is black and silver like the legacy. No upscale wood options. G37x: I'm not super comfortable RWD based AWD system. Also, there have been numerous complaints about the 7AT. Seemed the 5AT was awsome but not the 7AT. S60: Small interior. No spare tire. Very low profile tires. CTS 4: expensive. reliability issues. I don't know what to do. Going for another round of test drives today. BMW and Audi are a no go due to reliabilty concerns. Mercedes are underpowered for the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS5689 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I drove the TL SH-AWD, CTS 4, G37xS and the S60 R-Design. I really don't love any of them for different reasons. TL: exterior styling is better on the 2012 but not great. Interior is black and silver like the legacy. No upscale wood options. G37x: I'm not super comfortable RWD based AWD system. Also, there have been numerous complaints about the 7AT. Seemed the 5AT was awsome but not the 7AT. S60: Small interior. No spare tire. Very low profile tires. CTS 4: expensive. reliability issues. I don't know what to do. Going for another round of test drives today. BMW and Audi are a no go due to reliabilty concerns. Mercedes are underpowered for the price. Another person who believes BMW/Audi have tons of reliability issues. I really think this issue has been blown way out of proportion, especially in recent years. I know tons of BMW drivers who have never, ever had a single issue with their cars. I may sound like a tyrannical "Germanophile" (as LosAngelesLGT likes to call me ), but I promise I'm not trying to be a rude jerk with this post. Let me at least ask you this: have you driven a 3-series for comparison purposes? Even if you don't plan on buying it, you should drive one to see what you think. The 3-series is hands-down, with no exceptions my favorite smaller-midsize sedan. I think there's a reason, besides my own, that the 3-series is the benchmark in the segment. Anyway, although I don't quite understand your concern about buying one, I'm not here to change your mind or tell you how to spend your money, so I won't do that. The last think I'll say about one is they have a great selling point right now: free EVERYTHING for four years. You literally spend nothing to maintain your BMW for the first four years of ownership. Now to talk about the others. The TL SH-AWD is a great driving vehicle. It's been a while since I was last in one (my friend sold his), but I always thought it did a great job of filling the middle ground between BMW-like sport and Lexus-like plush. The styling has always bothered me, though. Acura designs don't age well. I feel they look dated in only a few years, and that's a no-no for me. I was going to say this in my earlier post, but I left it out, so I'll say it now: the 7AT is my least favorite part about the G37. It's not bad, but it's no where near as refined as BMW's 8AT -- now that is one killer transmission (damn it, I talked about BMW again). The G's 7AT is sometimes jerky on the 2-1 downshift at low speeds. Other than that the transmission is pretty good though. I'm not a Volvo fan, and I've had very little time in the new S60, so I cannot comment further. I had a friend who owned a 6MT CTS and he liked it a lot. He never had a single issue. The thing is, I've never known anyone else with a CTS, so again, my time with one is limited. I had seat time in a new CTS-V, but that's going to be like comparing apples to oranges. All I will say is:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kario Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I don't know why Kario says the Legacy is a better handler in the post above me, because I don't feel that way. My buddy who sold his Volvo for the SpecB also owns a G37X and says the same thing -- the G is the better handling car. Look at skidpad numbers as well, the G holds on longer. The rest is a matter of opinion, I suppose, but I would drive them back-to-back, I bet you'll find the G feels more stable and planted -- although you can tell you're hustling around a heavy sedan. The gobs of torque down low is also nice. Ours is a fully loaded G37X minus sport package and we got the price down about $6,000 on it (if I remember correctly). We did have some incentives like Infiniti loyalty and a few others, but we got a great deal on the car. I as have said I have driven EU spec cars. I know that EU Legacy has a much better suspension than US version. Skip pad is really a very bed test for handling. This is because it will always favour RWD cars. In skid pad test car is driven in circle under power than means that AWD car with permanent all wheel drive will have power to front wheels and will have reduced traction on front axle. Infinity has a RWD based AWD system and probably does not send power to front wheels in skid pad test. However this AWD little controlled power induced understeer is a good thing. It you apply power in a corner in Legacy you will feel the front end going outside slightly but in a controlled manner. If you do the same with G37x you risk oversteer and if the front axle will engage that will mean rapid reduction of front axle grip and much less controlled behaviour than in Legacy. You should really avoid cornering under power in street driving and if you want do to this Subaru is probable the best car that you can be in. Good all around handling test is a slalom for example. In my opinion Legacy responds to steering import quicker and will less effort than G37. As I have said earlier G37x has a much firmer suspension and this might give you an illusion of a more controlled driving in corners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS5689 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I as have said I have driven EU spec cars. I know that EU Legacy has a much better suspension than US version. Skip pad is really a very bed test for handling. This is because it will always favour RWD cars. In skid pad test car is driven in circle under power than means that AWD car with permanent all wheel drive will have power to front wheels and will have reduced traction on front axle. Infinity has a RWD based AWD system and probably does not send power to front wheels in skid pad test. However this AWD little controlled power induced understeer is a good thing. It you apply power in a corner in Legacy you will feel the front end going outside slightly but in a controlled manner. If you do the same with G37x you risk oversteer and if the front axle will engage that will mean rapid reduction of front axle grip and much less controlled behaviour than in Legacy. You should really avoid cornering under power in street driving and if you want do to this Subaru is probable the best car that you can be in. Good all around handling test is a slalom for example. In my opinion Legacy responds to steering import quicker and will less effort than G37. As I have said earlier G37x has a much firmer suspension and this might give you an illusion of a more controlled driving in corners. I totally forgot. You guys do get much better suspension tuning than we do! Again, you are correct there as well. At speed, the Infiniti system will send 100% power to the back if the front tires are not slipping. I find the Legacy's steering sloppy. It's totally numb on-center, offers very little feedback and is way too light. Perhaps the difference comes down to EU vs USDM tuning here. I also find the OEM Bilsteins way too soft, especially for a "GT" sedan. As I tell people, my car does the lean and bite. The body needs to roll a bit, then you find your grip. It just makes things very unsettling, and surely slows you down going through quick transitional sections where the body is all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kario Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 As I tell people, my car does the lean and bite. The body needs to roll a bit, then you find your grip. It just makes things very unsettling, and surely slows you down going through quick transitional sections where the body is all over the place. For reasons that are beyond my understanding Subaru uses very soft sway bars. Hopefully this can be easy and cured. Stiffer sway bars does not hurt comfort and make the car much more planted. I think that Subaru would greatly benefit if they would start using stiffer sway bars. All the reviews always complain about body roll... people read this and this becomes an image. Do you really find spec-b suspension sway to soft ? If so they I thing that SOA must have screed that also... BTW we don't get 2.5T (and 3.6) here in EU, but we get Bilstein suspension on 2.5i and 2.0D in a sport package. So I guess in US you have power with out suspension and in EU we get suspension with out power... nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmanaenk Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 Fat swaybar is not a good thing on a car that's driven during anything harsher than a 'european winter'. Basically fat swaybar = less independent suspension = possible loss of traction by whole axis from one tire hitting a bump. Personally, I put my stock swaybars back on for winter. 666 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kario Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I have found InsideLine videos testing G25 and Legacy GT: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkGpsZQJXYE]2010 Subaru Legacy 2.5GT Full Test Video - YouTube[/ame] Legacy [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaGZoLrN8Z0&feature=related]2011 Infiniti G25 Full Test Video - YouTube[/ame] G25 G25 probably has a little lighter engine and should be a little better than G37 at a slalom test. Legacy 67.7 mph vs Infinity 65.7 mph. This confirms my impression from driving Infinity vs Legacy. Legacy is more agile and changes direction quicker and that is with a much softer suspension. Spec-b will increase the difference further. As sway bars are concerned I really feel that Subaru uses softer sway bars than other manufactures and a very soft suspension. I really recommend upgrading them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05GT Guru Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 2002 Trans Am WS6 got to 68.3 in the slalom thats obviously the one you should go with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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