Drove a GT 5MT wagon! (warning: LONG)

[racerdave]

Psst... Zevil... it was Regal Blue too! :) (Disclaimer: In my car search, I looked at the 325i, G35, IS300, V70R and RX8 in addition to the Legacy. So those are the reference points below, and the 325iT and GT the two finalists.) Went to Don Jacobs on a whim last night because it's on the way home in a roundabout way. I actually went because I wanted to see 1) Atlantic Blue in person and 2) Garnet Red in person. Well, they had AB there in a 2.5i, but no red. (I'll address color at the end) So I just was expecting to look at color in person, nothing more. And I did NOT take a camera. ;) So I'm checking out the AB 2.5i just for color purposes, and a sales guy walks out... Joe, a young guy about 25 at max. Pretty much a n00b salesman, but wasn't bad. Anyway, he starts chatting a bit about the car and mentions the GT. I tell him that's what I'm interested in, with a stick. We have one right there... as he points to a RB GT Ltd wagon with a taupe interior. Want to drive it? Uh, ok. ;) RB on taupe... beautiful car. Absolutely beautiful color combo, though not for me with a 2.5-yr-old and 2 dogs. I'm too paranoid about the lovely leather getting stained with grape juice or something. But it looked fabulous. Major "wow." So he pulls it around, I pull my son's car seat out and make the switch, plop him in the seat... at which point he starts crying (he is "on full boost" in the terrible 2's) and saying "I want to go in Dada's car!" I'm thinking, "well, that makes 1 of us." :) So I run to my car and get him a matchbox car, nothing. Then the sales guy has a stroke of genius with timing... he opens the *monster* moonroof. I tell Jake to check it out, and he immediately became spellbound as it opened up fully. Whew! One disaster averted. Ok, first impressions. With the driver's seat all the way down as low as it can go, there was still a decent amount of headroom in the car with the moonroof closed for me when I had the seat adjusted how I like it (rake, etc). And not many cars can say that, as I'm about 6-1 with a 32-inch inseam, meaning more of my height comes from torso than legs. There's more headroom than the E46 BMW with a moonroof, and that was *just* ok. It's WAY better than the IS300 and G35 that I initially considered as well. I think the headroom is more akin to my wife's V70 with a moonroof, maybe a touch less, once again proving that the interior dimension numbers do not tell the whole story. I could actually live with the moonroof. The seats seem only marginally more bolstered than the 2.5i. But the good news is they are very comfortable, probably third only to the BMW's sport seats and V70R seats (which are somehow freakishly comfy yet supportive and well-bolstered at the same time). I liked the seats far better than the G35. They'll work nicely. Also, the quality of the leather was quite good, but I'll be going with cloth. (which, incidentally, looks better in person than the pics, too... whew) I'd also prefer a telescoping steering wheel, but I was able to find a comfortable position very easily, something I could NEVER do in the G35. Also speaking of the steering wheel, I was slightly disappointed in the Momo wheel. The shape is ok, but the rim thickness is not thick enough for my taste. It wasn't rope-thin or anything, but I'd prefer a thicker rim. (as an FYI, if I got a E46 BMW, I'd replace the SP steering wheel with the chunky M3 wheel, which is a straightforward swap). I've sat in the interior before so nothing new there. It's nice, and like I said the taupe looks great. I think the radio/climate control switches will take a little time to get the hang of. But other switches (mirror, gauge brightness) were all easy to find. I didn't have a problem with gauge brightness in the bright sunlight, although I never got a direct blast of sunlight on the gauges. Ok, the car was running with the air on, so I didn't assess startup shake or anything. But the car was exceptionally good on the NVH side of things. In fact, it was almost too quiet from an exhaust perspective. Not sure if I'll go with a cat-back, but it was very refined from a noise perspective, as well as engine smoothness. This car also had the short-shift kit (SSK). I did not drive a car without the SSK, but the shifts were somewhat notchy and stiff. Perhaps it would improve with break-in, but I don't think I'd get the SSK now. Clutch takeup was good... not too light and not too abrupt. Better than my Ford Craptour and better than just about everything but the *perfect* clutch in the RX8. The exit to their lot is uphill and to the right, and my first takeaway was very smooth, which prompted the sales guy to say that I've been the only one he's driven with that hasn't killed it there. To me, that's not a comment about my skill, just that the car was easy to get going with it's friendly clutch. Nice. Ok, on to power delivery. I strongly suspect that the auto would magnify any power holes below ~ 2.5k, because I hardly noticed it at all in the 5MT, just a bit in cruising in a taller gear (4th or 5th) at low engine speeds. Power comes on very smoothly and you can feel the turbo start to spool at about 2.5k. However, it's not terrible below that. It's actually pretty tractable, but the rush that comes on at 2.5 makes the power below that feel weak. But in normal light acceleration, I *never* noticed it with the 5MT, because I was generally shifting around 3-3.5k or so and it never fell off the boost band after a shift. In fact, it was hard to stay *out* of the boost just driving normally, because the boost spools up so easily. In that respect, it feels a lot like the V70R, albeit at slightly higher engine speeds (torque in the v70R comes on at about 1950). The engine also is a torque monster above 2.5k. I had no qualms about torque whatsoever. Like I said, in normal driving, I didn't notice lag at all. I'm sure that on a longer test drive and more situations I'd notice it, but for all practical purposes, it was a non-issue for me. But then again I'm coming out of a 2.5 6-cyl that doesn't start making a lot of its torque until 2.2k anyway, so I'm used to it. If I'd have come out of a Dodge Magnum or something I might feel different, but it was totally acceptable to me. When the boost did come on, it was smooth and power was quite good... very adequate for the street. More would always be better, but it's still plenty fast. I did run it up to 6k, and it was nice. Just a fair warning for anyone on this board who's going to buy that car, I ran it up in second gear once, and from what the sales guy said, I wasn't the only one who did that. So be aware of that from cars "off the lot." Oh yeah, and after I ran it up second and into third, my little boy Jake, who normally tells me to go faster, told me "Slow down, Dada!" :D So the car builds speed more readily than you might suspect. On to handling. Steering quickness was spot-on to me. It was also quite accurate. I'd have liked less power assist and more feel, however. The 325i (RWD, not the 325ix AWD which I've never driven) is still the king of steering feel/effort of everything I've driven. But it was better in terms of feel than, say, the V70R. The car turns in very well. The only corner I attacked a bit was a 90-degree right that also was slightly uphill from the apex on. The car turned in capably with precision and a sophistication that was quite satisfying. Once the RE92s are gone, it'll only get better. (I got a little push out of it, but I attribute a lot of that to the tires) The suspension is quite well sorted, as the reaction to steering-wheel input was well composed and very "German" in feel. Ride was extremely good, especially over some lumpy concrete expansion joints. The ride/handling seems to be tuned more to the ride side of the equasion. In tossing the car back and forth (as in a slalom), body roll was fairly noticible, however it did so in a *very* composed, controlled way. The shock-tuning engineers get an A+ and almost seem as if they were trained in Munich. :) I think the JDM GT spring/damper/bar combo would be a nice upgrade (according to Paul Hansen) that probably wouldn't degrade ride a tremendous amount. I'd be curious about that. However, what I might appreciate in better handling, the family may not appreciate in a stiffer ride. So for now, the GT is very composed and well-sorted out, offering a good balance between ride and handling. I didn't really lay on the brakes, but the pedal felt fairly firm and I could heel-and-toe just fine. So, to sum it up, I liked it a lot. While I still do love the 325iT for all it does well, when value, power, added room and all-weather grip are factored into the equasion, the GT is the clear winner for my needs. Declaring it the winner in my household will depend on my wife's test drive of it, which may come today or tomorrow. But she's already quite happy with the selection, so I'm cautiously optimistic there. When the $$ and safety are taken into consideration, I have little doubt she'll see the light. :D Which brings me to color. I went to see AB. Saw it in a 2.5i wagon in bright sunlight, and it was parked near the RB wagon. Overall, AB is darker in person that some pics lend you to believe, and darker than it appeared when I saw it under flourescent lights in a dealership. Under the lights, it's a boring, Camry-esque medium blue. In the sunlight, however... WOW! It's really a complex color that pics cannot do justice toward. The name they picked for it is suberb and totally accurate. It does indeed remind me of the look of the Atlantic on a sunny whale watch I did in MA once... kind of a grayish blue, rather dark when the sun is at an angle where it's not immediately shining on it. But when the light hit it at the right angle, the blue lights up to the color that shows on most pictures. What the pictures do not show is what the combination of those two characteristics look like on curved surfaces in the sun. There's also a hint of purple in the tint. It's really lovely. That said, my wife isn't enthused by it, although she has yet to see it in person. She's not one to appreciate those nuances, so I don't think I'll get AB. But I do appreciate it now, which I hadn't when only seeing it under flourescent light. She likes the color swatches of GR and Satin White. I dislike metallic reds (if they had "arrest me" San Remo Red, I'd consider it even though it's cop magnet), so I'm not likely to pick GR. I see some medium metallic reds in the parking lot here at work and after a few years of wear, they look like crap. So, it might wind up being SW. I like the pearl white, and white is a fairly easy color to take care of... and it would look nice with a window tint. :) (I saw a 2.5 sedan in this color and it looked pretty good) But... that's a detail to be sorted out. So that's my long-winded disseration. :)

[Dr. Zevil]

Nice write-up! So, how was the RBP in the sun? I think I am going to love it!

[racerdave]

RB in the sun is terrific. Looks really great, just like the pics of the sedan I posted a while back.

[Dr. Zevil]

Oh yeah, that's right.. I completely forgot.. sorry about that. I really like the idea of the Altantic blue, but I just don't think it would have been the color for me. I am glad that you had such a good experience. So when are you buying :D?

[chrono111]

Wow, that was the most thorough write/comparison with the BMW 325i. Thanks, I myself am in the same situation but I'm looking toward the 330i vs. the Legacy GT. The GT is a fantastic car but the 330i seems like perfection when it comes to just about everything. The steering has got me on the fence. I don't know why but the heavy weight and precision of the 330i steering still has me in a trance .. it's so telepathic, it's scary. I guess the question for me is $$$$$, do I save some dinero and get the GT which is about 90% of the bimmer or blow the cash. Very tuff decision but nice to have :D :D :D

[racerdave]

My IMBA comes due in Oct., but I'm not sure if I'll wait that long or not because I can get reasonably close to that price at Chilson's... depends on what me and the wifey agree upon. :)

[outahere]

Did you find it difficult to get into first gear if you were not at a total dead stop?

[racerdave]

Chrono, thanks. Yes, the 330 is a wonderful car. No doubt about that. However, I think the "telepathy" you speak of is pretty decent in the GT. Not quite the same as the 330, but the way it turns in and responds at the wheel is better than the IS300 and G35 I drove. Felt more "cohesive" than those cars. So for the $$, the GT is the best car I've driven in a car in that size/mission/performance. (the RX-8's handling was true perfection, but that car's too small for what I need) Outahere... as for 1st gear... hmm, I don't recall that being an issue, although I tend to let the car come to a near stop anyway before engaging 1st, so I probably didn't try.

[chrono111]

Racerdave, I agree about the RX8. That was a great ride but I need 4 doors plus I've heard MPG horror stories off of rx8club. I think I need another test drive with the GT or maybe drive these back to back. I really wish the momo steering wheel was a bit meatier too. But yes, you can't beat the GT for the $$. It definately is the closest competitor to the bmw in driving dynamics. The TL wasn't even close and the g35 I didn't really care for the styling and interior.

[racerdave]

Yeah, chrono, and that says a lot about the job Subie did with the Leg GT. I'm very impressed.

[WRXTom]

racerdave...Nice work! Especially, considering you had a little one and a sales guy along for the ride. It took me many more kms to get my thoughts on the car sorted out and they mirror your impressions very closely. Just a couple of comments. The exhaust is very quiet, perhaps too quiet only for the fact that it is difficult to know what your engine speed is based on exhaust note. With some aural clues it makes it easier to blip the throttle for launch, downshifts, etc. without using the tach. You can (well I can anyway :) ) stall the car or launch more aggressively than you planned simply because you are so isolated and have the revs either too low or too high. But, the quiet cabin pays dividends when you are at cruising speed enjoying your favorite tunes. The clutch and shifter work very well together. I haven't tried the SSK. The auto is noticeably more laggy than the manual. Actually, I rarely experience any lag with my manual GT but then again owning a WRX has taught me to be in the correct gear at all times to avoid the problem. And you are right about part throttle responsiveness. Boost and low end torque are usually just a small pedal squeeze away. Running hard through 2nd and 3rd gears is an eye opener as to the power on tap. I agree with your steering feel and weight comments. Subaru has done a good job (I really appreciate the quicker ratio compared to the WRX) but slightly less power assist would be OK with me. The suspension is compliant and works very well to soak up bumps and other imperfections. It tends to pitch and roll more than I would like but the stock suspension is an understandable compromise by Subaru between ride and handling. It is tuned to the soft side of neutral which is to be expected for what is essentially a family car. My wife, 3.5 year old and little girl (2 years old next week) appreciate it very much compared to the WRX. The GT's body motions do not mean you need to change your line while in a turn, it is certainly not sloppy. Just ignore the motions, hold your line and power through. If you upgrade tires the bar gets raised a lot with the GT. These RE92s are not much, if any different, than the ones that come on the WRX...a mediocre all-season tire. But, 80% of the time I am driving by myself so I will be keeping my eyes open for mild upgrades (USDM-specific, GT wagon-specific STi springs perhaps...I'm not holding my breath on that one). In case anyone is wondering, the STi'd WRX wagon outcorners the GT with upgraded wheels / tires by a significant margin but at the cost of a ride that can be uncompromising. I am impressed with what Subaru has done. Compared to my previous WRX wagon (Stage 2 power, STi suspension, plus other STi bits) the GT wagon has many strengths. Tom

[racerdave]

Thanks for the props, Tom. Right back at ya! :D That was good stuff. I especially liked that your point of reference was a WRX with STI bits. That means you are well versed with what an STI suspension can bring, both in terms of pluses and minuses. Your feedback was very helpful in trying to decide if I'll need to firm it up later or not. I suppose, however, that nothing will tell me that more than some months of ownership. But for now, like you said, despite the roll, it takes a firm set and digs around the corner. Yes, there is a tradeoff seemingly balanced slightly more toward ride than handling. But don't be fooled, the car still handles well. It reminded me of what Car and Driver once said about a 325i with Sport Package in describing its dynamics: "This car flows over the back roads, like a liquid following the contours of the road. Instantly, you're a great driver. Up-and-down suspension motions are so perfectly damped they almost escape notice. Body roll is controlled, a liquid that never sloshes. Pour it on. You have a stable platform from which to give your best. And the steering, the brakes, and the clutch and shifter convey your messages to the machinery exactly as you intend them." I don't think the GT's steering has quite the same feel, but the rest of it really describes the GT's dynamics very well. I think Subaru hit the BMW bar better than Infiniti did with the G35. We'll see what C&D and the other mags have to say in their full road tests. Oh, Tom... one last question: Did steering feel/effort change at all when you put the Kumhos on in place of the 92s?

[bemani]

[quote name='WRXTom']The auto is noticeably more laggy than the manual. Actually, I rarely experience any lag with my manual GT but then again owning a WRX has taught me to be in the correct gear at all times to avoid the problem. [/quote] Isn't that right :) I was floored when I first tried and actually got acceleration doing 40 in 5th in the GT. WRX would just shake you to death if you try doing that :D BTW, getting into 1st at speed is not a problem like WRX. I never realize how good the WRX is at training correct stick shift techniques 8)

[WRXTom]

[quote]Did steering feel/effort change at all when you put the Kumhos on in place of the 92s?[/quote] Steering feel and effort did change somewhat. The Kuhmos give quicker response to inputs and the effort increased slightly. But the Kuhmos are about 50% worn so I imagine there is is less squirm from tall treads and more rubber on the road requires more effort. Acceleration in 4th and 5th is excellent. It still surprises me. For example, cruising at 70-80 mph you are close to peak torque so you have lots of power on tap. Tom

[goneskiian]

Tom and Dave - Thanks for sharing your impressions! Great to have your experience with other cars compared to the GT. I enjoy reading posts like yours as it makes me want to go out an drive! :wink: :lol: I agree, the power on tap in 2nd and 3rd is quite impressive. It's also a bonus to have so much oommph in 5th at highway speeds, no downshifting necessary for passing! -Ian

[MtnSub]

Problem I have with BMW 330xi is that BMW will not sell it as a wagon, in North America. Also, 325xi wagon sport package does not actually get sport suspension part of upgrade. As stated on another post, better tires 225/17/45s will probably help steering feel better weighted and more surgical.