The Legacy's place in the world

[RSPDiver]

There is so much comparison of the new Legacy to other cars, most in higher brackets of the car world. Those cars typicaly rise sharply in price with more powerful engines, neat little options/trim packages, and tecnology stuff (Volvo and Audi are good examples). It almost seems a shame to group this car, which seems to be such a stellar performer and nicely equiped, with cars that are more-or-less in a different class. I would like to see the Legacy evolve into the benchmark of a different class, I think. A car for the BMW 1 series to chase after, perhaps. Or the US companies to aspire to (getting away from WWD cars). The car IS different, by design and by natural audience and following. Maybe Subaru can figure out some nifty marketing campaign to tap into a new market that will set it appart, and bring it out of the shadows of the more expensive cars. Just random thoughts.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Legacy and Outback draw the most paralells with Audis and Volvos, for less cash, with less technical flash. It is actually quite an acheivement for a car in the Legacy's price class to be compared up, rather than across, or down. It is interesting that the Ford Five Hundred / Mercury Montego is coming out with a wagon, and possible all wheel drive. That could be a real competitor. The upcoming Pontiac G6 and current Grand Prix are both front wheel drive, as is the malubu and malibu Maxx, Saturn LS and Ion. Pretty much everything from GM, short of the Caddy CTS, which is getting up there again. Pontiacs would probably be the closest competitors, if FWD is an option. Chrysler seems to be throwing cubic inches at the problem with the Magnum and 300. I am not sure if they are planning anything in terms of all wheel drive, but it is at least rear wheel drive, which is good for performance. They are big, and heavy looking, if not heavy actually. Classic muscle car methodology. Most customers would likely not cross over between the Legacy and the Magnum/300, with the "philosophical" differences. Maybe I am wrong. Acura TSX seems like a good option, but again, wrong wheel drive. If FWD is not a hurdle, then it could really be an alternative. As could the Nissan Altima and Mazda 6. An outside competitor would be the RX8, which is in a similar price bracket, but is more of a 4-door sports coupe, rather than a sport sedan. Infiniti G35 goes more the expensive road. Lexus IS300 as well. The lesser expensive pacific rim options being the Toyota Camry, and Honda Accord, Hyundai XG350, and Kia Amanti. All being less exciting than watching grass grow, IMHO. To other buyers, though, they could be competition. The Legacy would blow them away, but, one could consider them. I personally think the 1.8t Quattro A4 is the closest competitor to the Legacy, and as Subaru stated, the design target of the Legacy. Definitely close on the target, even if it isn't a unoquivocated bull's eye.

[crapy]

if comparing Price, Mazda 6, TSX, loaded Accord should be in the same place. For perfromance, Audi 1.8T, IS300, TL, G35, 328, 330, C-class should be compared. u no what, i always think that owning an A4 and B4 at the same time will be cool :P

[currentlya4]

I've been looking at the 6spd accord coupe and this car, So I'd definately put them in the same ballpark (although since I currently have an A4 the legacy is my current choice as I like the 4wd). Then again I may buy a civic as a beater and get an S2K as a toy instead of trying to make one car suit all my wishes. As for the 300/Magnum, there will be an AWD version of that coming out.

[SubaruDeac]

[quote]I personally think the 1.8t Quattro A4 is the closest competitor to the Legacy, and as Subaru stated, the design target of the Legacy. Definitely close on the target, even if it isn't a unoquivocated bull's eye. [/quote] Subaru has made huge strides. In person, the sedan exterior styling is much better than it comes across in pictures. Good power from the engine. But what makes Audi so great (I drive a '98 A4 1.8TQ sport package) is nailing all the details, not just some. Except cup holders. Germans just don't get cup holders. A lot of the discussions on this board focus on the details that Subaru missed. HIDs, premium stereo from the factory, fold down rear seats (Sedan), alarm/keyless entry on one key (I already have too many things on my keyring). Individually, all of these are just minor problems. But they start of add up. I like to drive. But I'm just not the type of person to do lots of mods, if any at all. Apparently, I want the impossible car: fun to drive all wheel drive sedan with manual transmission with a powerful engine; a "luxury" cabin, lots of safety features, and overall does not cost an arm and leg to maintain. The Subaru comes close to the Audi in looks and how it drives. But the Audi has just enough of an advantage that I'm not switching just yet, despite the massive advantage Subaru has in reliability/cost of maintenance. (Although I own my car outright, so even an expensive to maintain car will be less expensive than a new car.)

[IwannaSportSedan]

[quote name='currentlya4'](although since I currently have an A4 the legacy is my current choice as I like the 4wd). Then again I may buy a civic as a beater and get an S2K as a toy instead of trying to make one car suit all my wishes. As for the 300/Magnum, there will be an AWD version of that coming out.[/quote] It will be interesting to see how heavy a Dodge Mag-numb with a hemi pushrod V8 and all wheel drive will be. A little too reminiscent of a muscle car for me. I am too young to be a child of the 60'-70's when muscle cars were the thing, and I am still not into them now that they are prized classics. They might be nice to look at, but they are about as technically advanced as a chipped-stone knife. Ironically, I love 50's-70's european sports cars, which are even further before my time. They were as technically advanced as possible for the time, and beautifully crafted. Speaking of european, how do you like your A4? That is the main competition to the Legacy GT for my next purchase, down the road a bit... We already have a toy, a 99 Miata is my wife's car, and my truck, a 00 Ranger 4x4 for schlepping in the winter and carrying things that won't fit in a Miata. My next car needs highway legs, better mileage than my truck, more comfortable and more seats than the miata, but still fun to drive on the back roads. Snow and ice ability in Iowa is a good idea, too.

[Dr. Zevil]

What a lot of people don't understand is that some of us buy these cars because of thier great value. In truth, this is the best Subaru car (arguably) ever. In this case.. this car has a lot of "bonuses". It is great that this car is drawing a lot of attention from buyers who wouldn't have looked at Subaru before.

[RSPDiver]

[quote name='Dr. Zevil']What a lot of people don't understand is that some of us buy these cars because of thier great value. In truth, this is the best Subaru car (arguably) ever. In this case.. this car has a lot of "bonuses". It is great that this car is drawing a lot of attention from buyers who wouldn't have looked at Subaru before.[/quote] Exactly! That's why I think I prefert to compare the Legacy not as "almost as good as" a lot of the luxury and/or high end cars, but a car that kicks the crap out of Accords, Camrys, Grand Am/Prix, Contour (if they still make those), Galant, etc. I think it's good enough (without having driven it yet) to be the leader of IT'S OWN pack, not the follower/contender of another pack.

[Dr. Zevil]

[quote name='RSPDiver'][quote name='Dr. Zevil']What a lot of people don't understand is that some of us buy these cars because of thier great value. In truth, this is the best Subaru car (arguably) ever. In this case.. this car has a lot of "bonuses". It is great that this car is drawing a lot of attention from buyers who wouldn't have looked at Subaru before.[/quote] Exactly! That's why I think I prefert to compare the Legacy not as "almost as good as" a lot of the luxury and/or high end cars, but a car that kicks the crap out of Accords, Camrys, Grand Am/Prix, Contour (if they still make those), Galant, etc. I think it's good enough (without having driven it yet) to be the leader of IT'S OWN pack, not the follower/contender of another pack.[/quote] I can agree with those statements. It's like the Legacy is a car for people who don't want the accords etc., but then again don't need to luxury car that demands top dollar. I also want to be a driver, not a passenger in my own car. Sometimes the luxury segment can leave the driver numb to the road. It's a wierd little niche that Subaru has carved with the Legacy. I have a feeling that if they move upmarket that they are in trouble. They should be happy right were they are at, at least with the quality of this new Legacy.

[Drift Monkey]

So are you guys suggesting that Subaru has created a new niche of cars targeted at specific drivers, neither aimed at the "middle of the road" vehicles nor the "luxo sport" vehicles? The press release in another posts seems to suggest Subaru wants to move upwards, but should (could) they really?

[dskelto]

I think that someone else on this board summed up the Legacy's place in the world perfectly, particularly when it comes to comparisons to the german autos. Paraphrasing: the Legacy/Outback is the top of the line auto from a medium class car company, whereas the A4's and 325i's etc. are entry level autos from Luxury class car companies. There are luxury (technological) touches in the A4's and 325's that have trickled down from automobiles a full three classes above the Legacy. My wife drives a 02' MCS and there are even little touches in the Mini (entry-level non-luxury BMW) that would be (should be) thoughtful touches in the Legacy GT. (Auto down on at least the driver and passenger window; Automatic door lock engagement at 12 mph; Steeering wheel stereo controls; Keyless window down and sunroof activation; one touch sunroof control.) But I accept that my Legacy GT doesn't have those things and I absolutely love it for what it does have: Straight-line performance superior to the german entry-level luxury autos; AWD handling and ride quality that is comparable to the entry-level luxury autos; a very comfortable, quiet, and safe environment for me and my family (dogs included)to enjoy the blurred scenery. The fact that the Legacy GT can do what it does very well, and for less expense than the german "entry-level luxury" cars made it a no-brainer for me as driving satisfaction is more important than luxury. So in answer to the question posed. I think that the Legacy GT and GT ltd. matches up well with (VW)Passat, (Volvo)V70, (Saab)9-5 Aero, (Acura) TSX, TL, and (Infiniti)G35, (Audi)A4-A6 and (BMW)325-330 with a definite emphasis on driving performance and utility.

[Dr. Zevil]

[quote name='dskelto']I think that someone else on this board summed up the Legacy's place in the world perfectly, particularly when it comes to comparisons to the german autos. Paraphrasing: the Legacy/Outback is the top of the line auto from a medium class car company, whereas the A4's and 325i's etc. are entry level autos from Luxury class car companies. There are luxury (technological) touches in the A4's and 325's that have trickled down from automobiles a full three classes above the Legacy. My wife drives a 02' MCS and there are even little touches in the Mini (entry-level non-luxury BMW) that would be (should be) thoughtful touches in the Legacy GT. (Auto down on at least the driver and passenger window; Automatic door lock engagement at 12 mph; Steeering wheel stereo controls; Keyless window down and sunroof activation; one touch sunroof control.) But I accept that my Legacy GT doesn't have those things and I absolutely love it for what it does have: Straight-line performance superior to the german entry-level luxury autos; AWD handling and ride quality that is comparable to the entry-level luxury autos; a very comfortable, quiet, and safe environment for me and my family (dogs included)to enjoy the blurred scenery. The fact that the Legacy GT can do what it does very well, and for less expense than the german "entry-level luxury" cars made it a no-brainer for me as driving satisfaction is more important than luxury. So in answer to the question posed. I think that the Legacy GT and GT ltd. matches up well with (VW)Passat, (Volvo)V70, (Saab)9-5 Aero, (Acura) TSX, TL, and (Infiniti)G35, (Audi)A4-A6 and (BMW)325-330 with a definite emphasis on driving performance and utility.[/quote] Very well said. I think that you are on the money. Do I think that Subaru can move up-market? Maybe, but definitely not in one jump with one car. They are going to need to increase brand equity amongst people who don't own or haven't owned a Subaru. I think they are capable but it will take time.

[SC GT]

[quote name='RSPDiver'][quote name='Dr. Zevil']What a lot of people don't understand is that some of us buy these cars because of thier great value. In truth, this is the best Subaru car (arguably) ever. In this case.. this car has a lot of "bonuses". It is great that this car is drawing a lot of attention from buyers who wouldn't have looked at Subaru before.[/quote] Exactly! That's why I think I prefert to compare the Legacy not as "almost as good as" a lot of the luxury and/or high end cars, but a car that kicks the crap out of Accords, Camrys, Grand Am/Prix, Contour (if they still make those), Galant, etc. I think it's good enough (without having driven it yet) to be the leader of IT'S OWN pack, not the follower/contender of another pack.[/quote] But, from a marketing standpoint, you'll never elevate the image of your car or your brand by saying that the Legacy kicks ass over all the other nerd/soccer mom or Japanese cars. That will just leave the impression the Legacy is king of the nerd/soccer mom/Japanese mid-size cars. By comparing it solely to German/Euro cars (and not even to high-end Japanese "driver's" cars such as the TSX, IS300, G35, TL), Subaru is shooting for rarified air. To be mentioned in the same breath as BMW and Audi, as opposed to Accord/Grand Prix/Galant, is where every automaker wants to be. (IMO, any car that compares itself to a GP, Contour or Galant is a car that I am strking off of my "want" list.) The strategy is pretty ballsy, but so far seems to be paying off, seeing as how Road and Track is lending its name to that comparo-drive with the Leg, a BWM and a Volvo, and without another Japanese car on the menu.

[RSPDiver]

Very true SC GT. I think that Drift Monkey is smelling what I'm stepping in. This car doesn't fit nicely into any mold.

[Dr. Zevil]

[quote name='SC GT'][quote name='RSPDiver'][quote name='Dr. Zevil']What a lot of people don't understand is that some of us buy these cars because of thier great value. In truth, this is the best Subaru car (arguably) ever. In this case.. this car has a lot of "bonuses". It is great that this car is drawing a lot of attention from buyers who wouldn't have looked at Subaru before.[/quote] Exactly! That's why I think I prefert to compare the Legacy not as "almost as good as" a lot of the luxury and/or high end cars, but a car that kicks the crap out of Accords, Camrys, Grand Am/Prix, Contour (if they still make those), Galant, etc. I think it's good enough (without having driven it yet) to be the leader of IT'S OWN pack, not the follower/contender of another pack.[/quote] But, from a marketing standpoint, you'll never elevate the image of your car or your brand by saying that the Legacy kicks ass over all the other nerd/soccer mom or Japanese cars. That will just leave the impression the Legacy is king of the nerd/soccer mom/Japanese mid-size cars. By comparing it solely to German/Euro cars (and not even to high-end Japanese "driver's" cars such as the TSX, IS300, G35, TL), Subaru is shooting for rarified air. To be mentioned in the same breath as BMW and Audi, as opposed to Accord/Grand Prix/Galant, is where every automaker wants to be. (IMO, any car that compares itself to a GP, Contour or Galant is a car that I am strking off of my "want" list.) The strategy is pretty ballsy, but so far seems to be paying off, seeing as how Road and Track is lending its name to that comparo-drive with the Leg, a BWM and a Volvo, and without another Japanese car on the menu.[/quote] It's true, but it's not for a lack of trying on Subaru's part. When they released the WRX they INSISTED that they be compared to comparable BMW cars and such.. even though they weren't in that realm yet. I think that they are moving in the right direction now.

[jk]

it wasn't only subaru that compared the wrx to bmw and audi. car and driver did a comparo on the wrx (NOT sti) with the bmw 330xi and an audi s4 (NOT a4). of three editors, one rated the wrx last because of its crude interior. but two said they preferred the wrx irrespective of price!

[Dr. Zevil]

[quote name='jk']it wasn't only subaru that compared the wrx to bmw and audi. car and driver did a comparo on the wrx (NOT sti) with the bmw 330xi and an audi s4 (NOT a4). of three editors, one rated the wrx last because of its crude interior. but two said they preferred the wrx irrespective of price![/quote] and now the rags don't like the Saabaru even though they upgraded the material inside and adder extra sound deadening because it's slower and less sporty than it use to be as a Subaru.. they have no idea what they want really :lol:

[MtnSub]

Forget the up-market or down-market debate, I think Subaru’s new Leg GT or OB/Ltd is cleverly positioned to capture new customers from below and above. Price sensitive customers can get incredible value and better than Audi/BMW performance in a base GT package that comes close to Audi interior features. I have only owned expensive Euro cars for years and I am only test driving cars that cost more than the Leg GT/Ltd and I keep coming back to the Leg GT for specific reasons.  Volvo V70R had the best sport seats and more power, but off my list because of 43 ft. turning radi  Audi A4 3.0 (not 1.8T) has smaller 10 inch rear brakes, less power and Leg GT has much better sport seats. If I spend $38k for an Audi A4, I can get the S suspension package, but I still have less power, less braking, 200 lbs more weight and sport seats that are not as good as Leg GT/Ltd.  BMW 325xi wagon MT with sport package is only car that is still on the list with Leg GT/Ltd. BMW has less power, smaller brakes, but everything works so good together and feels better than the spec sheet would have you believe. With sport package and leather add-ons, the car has a great interior. Note that Leg GT/Ltd sport seats are better than std BMW or Audi seats, IMO. Yes, there are some comfort items I will miss and they should be on the Leg GT/Ltd (e.g. auto up/dwn, homelink, and a rear armrest), but I bet Subaru will be adding those by next year. Even today, I am not going to walk away from what is now a good looking car with more power, better brakes, excellent OE sport seats, excellent stock suspension (except tires) just so I can have auto up/dwn, arm rest, homelink and the privilege of paying more. The Leg GT/Ltd is better in many significant ways than its more expensive Euro competitors. Almost forgot. When I mentioned new Leg GT during my Audi test drive, the salesman said that the Audi tech guys training dealers said Subaru was delivering a very well done new car.

[racerdave]

Good stuff MtnSub... Interesting comment from the Audi guys. My BMW sales guy is going to be saying that soon too. :D