Real World Comparison, LGT 5EAT vs. OBXT 5MT

[SoldonSubie]

If you can't notice a difference between "sport" and regular drive, there is either something wrong with the cars or something wrong with the driver. Try heading into a corner at a decent speed in normal "drive" and see how fast you can accelerate out the corner - and pay attention to how high the RPMS are. Next, switch it into "sport" mode and repeat the same process of accelerating out of a corner. As I said, if you don't notice a difference, there is something wrong. That is the most noticeable aspect of the more aggressive "sport" mapping, but even straight-line acceleration should be improved. As other members here pointed out, it could just be that the adaptive shift logic is not set up for spirited driving. However, in my experience, the "sport" aspect of the Legay's 5EAT SS is what makes it such a wonderful compromise.

 

I respect both the decision behind buying either transmission -- but was just writing to say that "sport" does make a huge difference in spirited driving.

Subaru-aholic:

 

Trust me. I know how to drive and I’m sure you haven’t lumped me into the general public idiocy that you referred to.

 

I’ve been trying to drive my loaner GT the same way I drive my OBXT for the past few days.

 

Normally I drive with four appendages (both feet, both hands). When coming out of corners I naturally downshift my car so I hadn’t noticed the transmission trying to do it for me.

 

So, today, I tied my right hand behind my back and the 5EAT did hold the lower gear on a turn. Like I said I usually do this myself, even with automatics so I hadn’t noticed anything special.

 

BTW, MPG based on the trip computer is at 17.4 for 140 miles. My OBXT 5MT would be at 21.5.

[SoldonSubie]

The Outback has better brakes? Interesting. Why would this be?

 

.

 

mkaresh:

 

No, the Legacy GT has bigger, vented rear brakes.

[robmarch]

Seems odd that a pollution savings measure reduces fuel economy.

 

Really? That's what restrictive cats do. manufacturers need to balance fuel economy, power, and emissions (and adding weight to pass crash test). at some point, all are at odds with each other. the government (and the consumer) decides which takes priority.

[StringFellow]

This thread is quite funny considering the comparison. The 5EAT and 5MT can't be compared. It is all based on your preference, convenience and how you like to drive. Little trunk storage space, tons of storage space, lower clearance, higher clearance.....

 

I have owned manuals all my life and this is the first automatic I have owned and I have to say, it is the best auto I have ever driven. Yes, it might shift a little slower at times, it might get a little less MPG too, but it makes up for it in convenience. I have know several people who have bought manuals and ended up trading them in after a short period of time because their work commute changed and a manual is just too hard to deal with in traffic. This is the main reason I even considered the AT. What about riding the clutch too much in stop and go traffic....lets talk about longevity then as well.

 

Yeah the OB brakes might be a slightly smaller, the tires slightly wider, but what it comes down too, is both cars are great!!! Why do you have to state that a car sucks, when it isn't the style/type of car for you. Just buy the model you need/want, make comparisons, but don't put down a close relative of your car just becuase it isn't the right car for you.

 

-S

[melayout]

I wasn't sure but now we know that the 5EAT has a lockup TQ.

 

Checkout http://vocuspr.vocus.com/VocusPR30/DotNet/Newsroom/ViewAttachment.aspx?SiteName=Subaru&Entity=PRAsset&AttachmentType=F&EntityID=75406&AttachmentID=d3344db0-7f7c-42ca-8ed4-860cdc197b5f

[StringFellow]

I wasn't sure but now we know that the 5EAT has a lockup TQ.

 

Checkout http://vocuspr.vocus.com/VocusPR30/DotNet/Newsroom/ViewAttachment.aspx?SiteName=Subaru&Entity=PRAsset&AttachmentType=F&EntityID=75406&AttachmentID=d3344db0-7f7c-42ca-8ed4-860cdc197b5f

 

And what does that mean exactly? Good, bad? When it comes to automotive details, I am lacking.

 

-S

[rallispec]

And what does that mean exactly? Good, bad? When it comes to automotive details, I am lacking.

 

-S

 

i'll try and do my best explaining it quickly --

 

How a torque converter works

 

 

Benefits and Weak Points

In addition to the very important job of allowing your car come to a complete stop without stalling the engine, the torque converter actually gives your car more torque when you accelerate out of a stop. Modern torque converters can multiply the torque of the engine by two to three times. This effect only happens when the engine is turning much faster than the transmission.

 

 

At higher speeds, the transmission catches up to the engine, eventually moving at almost the same speed. Ideally, though, the transmission would move at exactly the same speed as the engine, because this difference in speed wastes power. This is part of the reason why cars with automatic transmissions get worse gas mileage than cars with manual transmissions. To counter this effect, some cars have a torque converter with a lockup clutch. When the two halves of the torque converter get up to speed, this clutch locks them together, eliminating the slippage and improving efficiency.

[Subaru-aholic]

Subaru-aholic:

 

Trust me. I know how to drive and I’m sure you haven’t lumped me into the general public idiocy that you referred to.

 

I’ve been trying to drive my loaner GT the same way I drive my OBXT for the past few days.

 

Normally I drive with four appendages (both feet, both hands). When coming out of corners I naturally downshift my car so I hadn’t noticed the transmission trying to do it for me.

 

So, today, I tied my right hand behind my back and the 5EAT did hold the lower gear on a turn. Like I said I usually do this myself, even with automatics so I hadn’t noticed anything special.

 

BTW, MPG based on the trip computer is at 17.4 for 140 miles. My OBXT 5MT would be at 21.5.

 

I never meant to imply you part of the generally idiotic public. It is obvious you are not. I was just baffled by the thought of someone not being able to see a difference between normal and "sport" modies in the 5EAT SS. To me, it makes a huge difference -- but I assume the transmission has adapted to my somewhat aggressive driving, whereas a loaner car might not be ready for spirited driving. I guess between your being used to manuals and the car being a loaner possibly driven by somebody without the slightest idea of how to drive and have a little fun, I can understand why "sport" might not be much of a change.

[Colonel Angus]

At least the 5EAT doesn't come with a "free" stinky clutch.

 

If you want an automatic that shifts fast, get a DSG or SMG.

 

the SMG box that the new M5's are going to be rocking are pretty slick.

 

one key feature is the 6-mode shift feature. basically, you can select how fast the gear shifts occur. it ranges from your basic 'obvious' transition from gear to gear, to F1 gearbox speed shifting, which is mode 6. in mode 6, it's just a matter of shifting, quick-let-off-the-gas, then back on - the shifts are blips.

 

it's truly amazing.

[melayout]

Check out http://www.protorque.com/prodln/pl_im.htm :

Subaru WRX

PTC-SUWRXSS

ProTorque has developed a torque converter for Subaru hot new WRX. The stall is 500-800 above stock, and maintains full lockup capability. Project WRX racer Jorje said, "Originally my automatic was putting out very unimpressive 60ft times of almost 3 seconds. Now with the right launch I'm down to almost 1.8 seconds, as of the time of the modification. Hands down the FIRST thing an automatic owner should do, and absolutely the best bang for the buck. Short of a custom ECM, NOTHING will give you the seat in the pants or 1/4 mile gains of the ProTorque unit.

 

Yummy, 5MTs hear I come, hehe.

[Slickvic]

WOW, neat product. Kind of hard to justify the $500 pricetag though.

Thanx for finding this melayout.

 

PTC-SU12SS SUBARU LEGACY

Approx Stall Speed: 300 - 800 ABOVE

Rated HP: Price:

$495.00

[spiffySRQ]

I think thats for the 4EATS if I remeber?

[Compressed]

I've been an ardent supporter of manual transmissions for my entire life. Even before I was driving I snobbishly looked down at friends parents who had automatics. All my cars to this point at age 29 have been manuals. My last car, a 98 RS had a lightened flywheel and was a joy to drive, when driving aggresively.

 

Then I had a rental car, a crappy sentra that was automatic, I noticed I was much calmer in traffic and commuting when operating that vehicle. I liked that. I also enjoyed the fact that my left leg wasn't getting an unbalanced workout compared to nothing for my right. You see I am a competitive cyclist and need to keep strength balanced in my lower limbs for optimal performance. Also after 100 mile rides or big races, clutching for hours coming home is a major PITA. These are all lifestyle factors that influenced my decision for a 5eat in my new GT wagon.

 

I have found in my test drives that the manual mode gives me the best of both worlds concerning transmission dynamics. Yes I lose some power, and takeoff is slower, but the difference is truly negligible for anyone but those competing in their vehicles. If that is important to you a 5mt is the way to go, however if you just enjoy a quick well balanced vehicle the score becomes much closer. I believe that manual mode auto shifts are actually faster than the 5mt can hope to be even with the best driver. It may seem slow but that view can be easily skewed as you are not doing anything after requesting the shift, whereas in a 5mt you must clutch etc, down shifting when compared with a double clutching technique is definitely faster in 5eat.

 

So really it is about what makes you happy. If you want the fastet 0-60 go 5mt, absolutely, however from a roll things begin to get a lot closer. Certainly close enough to elicit a similiar seat of the pants feel, which is all that is important to me as I am not racing and will not street race. So the comparisons are physical in nature as to my reactions to the dynamics of the car which are very close once moving.

[TSiWRX]

Very well said, Compressed! Very well said indeed!

 

Although, LOL, my blood-pressure tends to go up when I'm driving slushboxes - I'm always trying to figure out what *_I_* can do to make them shift exactly when I want. LOL.

 

Agreed - a manumatic-type system is something that I would consider ideal as well. I'd love to have a pair of flippers behind the wheel, in addition to the BMW "dogshift" type SMG ram-rod/joystick off the console.

 

---

 

The only reason why I just *_had_ * to go with a manual on the LGT was because I simply love rowing for myself. It's totally about enjoyment. And yes, I'm one of those freaks who don't even mind having to pump the clutch in bumper-to-bumper, even after 2 and a half hours thereof.

 

If my wife had made me compromise on the LGT, I honestly don't think I would have been too -un-happy at all, getting the pushbuttons on the steering wheel.

 

-A

[TAckhouse1]

However I have resorted to wrapping it in a sock so I don’t have OMOM burned into my palm.

 

 

[Ken S]

Excellent points, Compressed. I got a laugh about how a crappy Sentra enlightened you to what worked better for you.

 

I believe that manual mode auto shifts are actually faster than the 5mt can hope to be even with the best driver. It may seem slow but that view can be easily skewed as you are not doing anything after requesting the shift

 

I agree completely. I've driven manuals all my life and I'd be hard pressed to match both the speed and smoothness of a 5EAT manual shift.

 

Ken

[Compressed]

Excellent points, Compressed. I got a laugh about how a crappy Sentra enlightened you to what worked better for you.

Ken

 

 

I know, its funny now that I think about it, it took me a while to admit this to myself though. Now I just need to prepare myself for all the crap I'm going to get from friends about my choice.

 

I think a liberal dose of the go pedal should silence them though!

[SoldonSubie]

I've been an ardent supporter of manual transmissions for my entire life. Even before I was driving I snobbishly looked down at friends parents who had automatics. All my cars to this point at age 29 have been manuals. My last car, a 98 RS had a lightened flywheel and was a joy to drive, when driving aggresively.

 

Then I had a rental car, a crappy sentra that was automatic, I noticed I was much calmer in traffic and commuting when operating that vehicle. I liked that. I also enjoyed the fact that my left leg wasn't getting an unbalanced workout compared to nothing for my right. You see I am a competitive cyclist and need to keep strength balanced in my lower limbs for optimal performance. Also after 100 mile rides or big races, clutching for hours coming home is a major PITA. These are all lifestyle factors that influenced my decision for a 5eat in my new GT wagon.

 

I have found in my test drives that the manual mode gives me the best of both worlds concerning transmission dynamics. Yes I lose some power, and takeoff is slower, but the difference is truly negligible for anyone but those competing in their vehicles. If that is important to you a 5mt is the way to go, however if you just enjoy a quick well balanced vehicle the score becomes much closer. I believe that manual mode auto shifts are actually faster than the 5mt can hope to be even with the best driver. It may seem slow but that view can be easily skewed as you are not doing anything after requesting the shift, whereas in a 5mt you must clutch etc, down shifting when compared with a double clutching technique is definitely faster in 5eat.

 

So really it is about what makes you happy. If you want the fastet 0-60 go 5mt, absolutely, however from a roll things begin to get a lot closer. Certainly close enough to elicit a similiar seat of the pants feel, which is all that is important to me as I am not racing and will not street race. So the comparisons are physical in nature as to my reactions to the dynamics of the car which are very close once moving.

 

For me it’s the opposite. I’m too busy driving to worry that much about the other cars around me. Also, you sort of have to think about what you’re doing even if it is like second nature. A couple of times I’ve caught myself downshifting to chase some moron who cut me off and the action of shifting makes me double think my stupidity and I let them go.

 

As far as the Sentra comparison…..On Sunday night I was going out to get take-out for me and the wife. I left the LGT 5EAT in the garage in favor of the v70 2.4M (econo-wagon) because I actually enjoyed plowing through the LONG THROW shifter on that more than the power on the LGT. That was impulsive though. If I had to take one of those two cars everyday I’d obviously pick the GT.

 

I’m lucky. I live near Denver and my commute and, Denver in general, doesn’t have terrible traffic. If I were still crawling on the LIE or the 101 at 3 MPH I’m sure I’d have a different perspective.

[SoldonSubie]

I never meant to imply you part of the generally idiotic public. It is obvious you are not. I was just baffled by the thought of someone not being able to see a difference between normal and "sport" modies in the 5EAT SS. To me, it makes a huge difference -- but I assume the transmission has adapted to my somewhat aggressive driving, whereas a loaner car might not be ready for spirited driving. I guess between your being used to manuals and the car being a loaner possibly driven by somebody without the slightest idea of how to drive and have a little fun, I can understand why "sport" might not be much of a change.

Subaru-aholic:

 

Let me apologize. When I replied to you I was in a bad mood.

 

I returned the LGT 5EAT today and I will admit that it felt a little better towards the end of my 300 or so miles in it. Thanks for the reply.

[SoldonSubie]

This thread is quite funny considering the comparison. The 5EAT and 5MT can't be compared. It is all based on your preference, convenience and how you like to drive. Little trunk storage space, tons of storage space, lower clearance, higher clearance.....

 

I have owned manuals all my life and this is the first automatic I have owned and I have to say, it is the best auto I have ever driven. Yes, it might shift a little slower at times, it might get a little less MPG too, but it makes up for it in convenience. I have know several people who have bought manuals and ended up trading them in after a short period of time because their work commute changed and a manual is just too hard to deal with in traffic. This is the main reason I even considered the AT. What about riding the clutch too much in stop and go traffic....lets talk about longevity then as well.

 

Yeah the OB brakes might be a slightly smaller, the tires slightly wider, but what it comes down too, is both cars are great!!! Why do you have to state that a car sucks, when it isn't the style/type of car for you. Just buy the model you need/want, make comparisons, but don't put down a close relative of your car just becuase it isn't the right car for you.

 

-S

String-fellow:

 

I guess that with all the hype I was expecting something more from the 5EAT. Like I indicated in one of my other posts if I were in a situation where 3 mph traffic was the norm, the 5EAT is a great option.

 

My driving experience was a disappointment. Hence, I said it sucks. I wasn’t trying to offend.

 

BTW, I agree that in real world situations the OBXT’s smaller brakes won’t be noticed compared to the LGT’s bigger variety. However, I would gladly trade my OBXT’s over head sun glasses holder, power seat and cross bars for this feature. But, like you said, we buy the cars that are best fit our needs. For that meant the higher ground clearance in the OBXT. FWIW I did get stuck one time this year in a snow drift.

[mkaresh]

I wasn't sure but now we know that the 5EAT has a lockup TQ.

 

Checkout http://vocuspr.vocus.com/VocusPR30/DotNet/Newsroom/ViewAttachment.aspx?SiteName=Subaru&Entity=PRAsset&AttachmentType=F&EntityID=75406&AttachmentID=d3344db0-7f7c-42ca-8ed4-860cdc197b5f

 

I could be wrong, but I think it's been at least a decade since anyone sold an automatic that didn't have a lock-up torque converter. It's absolutely necessary for decent fuel economy.

 

It's not difficult to feel a lock-up torque converter in action. It feels much like an extra gear when engaging and releasing. If you keep an eye on the tach, you'll see revs drop a few hundred when the lock-up engages. Then if you give the car just a moderate amount of gas (not enough to force a downshift) you'll feel a slight shift and see revs jump a few hundred. Lock-up torque converters are not designed to handle much torque. They're for cruising, and are designed to release when you accelerate.