Tire dilemma - buy 1 or 4?

[turbodog]

That article only covers adjustments for toes. The easiest thing to adjust, even with craptastic alignment equipment is the toes. I'm not disagreeing that toe ins will cause uneven wear. I am simply stating that from what I've read, camber can cause uneven wear as well. Just search for the term "camber wear" and you get an endless set of results. Plus, the fact that Monroe shocks has dedicated a section to tire wear with documentation of each type of wear with one being "camber wear" tells me that camber can in fact cause uneven wear.

 

Given how easy and prevalent toe adjustments are, I seriously doubt that the technicians at my Subaru shop would fudge the numbers or do some hanky panky. When I said that they had replaced their alignment equipment, it was done when they moved to a bigger facility. And the new facility has a window with a great view into the work area. But I'll be honest with you, the last time I got the alignment, I was working on my laptop and not really looking at the work done on my Subaru. But in any case, I have enough doubt that I'm hoping that this new shop will do a decent job. The fact that the technician I spoke to is a sports car enthusiast and claims to do some races for hobby gives me some level of confidence. But we'll see.

 

It's not hard to measure camber either, all you need is a framing square, level, flat surface and a ruler.

 

The camber that the stock suspension is capable of cannot produce excessive wear itself.

[seabass07]

It's not hard to measure camber either, all you need is a framing square, level, flat surface and a ruler.

 

The camber that the stock suspension is capable of cannot produce excessive wear itself.

 

It can if it is +.5...but maybe only the outback is capable of that stock...it tore the shit out of the outside of my tires when coupled with a bit of hard cornering.

[StHalcyon]

All this talk made me bust out my DSLR and made my PZero Nero a poser. =)

 

I took this pic with the wear indicator in focus because I read somewhere that the plane of wear can be indicative of toe vs camber wear. The more angled the plane, the more likely it is toe. The less angled the plane, the more likely it is camber.

 

This is picture is of my PZero Nero where according to my cheap measuring tool, shows 5/32 on the outside and middle two grooves, and 2/32 in the inside. Technically, the 5 indicator bar is fully visible but touches the line for the outside, and for the inside it's between the 2 and 3 indicator line, but I'm going to round down to 2/32. So the difference is probably not a whole 2/32, but somewhere between 1/32 and 2/32 difference.

 

What do you experts think? (Since this thread has already gone off topic and I've already decided to replace all 4 tires and get another alignment from a different shop, the original question is now moot. LOL)

 

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m96/sthalcyon/default/20110331_PZero_Nero_Wear.jpg

[turbodog]

Read this:

 

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=4

[turbodog]

All this talk made me bust out my DSLR and made my PZero Nero a poser. =)

 

I took this pic with the wear indicator in focus because I read somewhere that the plane of wear can be indicative of toe vs camber wear. The more angled the plane, the more likely it is toe. The less angled the plane, the more likely it is camber.

 

This is picture is of my PZero Nero where according to my cheap measuring tool, shows 5/32 on the outside and middle two grooves, and 2/32 in the inside. Technically, the 5 indicator bar is fully visible but touches the line for the outside, and for the inside it's between the 2 and 3 indicator line, but I'm going to round down to 2/32. So the difference is probably not a whole 2/32, but somewhere between 1/32 and 2/32 difference.

 

What do you experts think? (Since this thread has already gone off topic and I've already decided to replace all 4 tires and get another alignment from a different shop, the original question is now moot. LOL)

 

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m96/sthalcyon/default/20110331_PZero_Nero_Wear.jpg

 

It's hard to tell from that pic, but assuming the left side is the inside, that looks like excessive wear from toe in, which is more gradual across the tire. Toe out wear tends to be very concentrated on the inside inch or two of the tire. The outside shoulder (right) also appears to be worn hard, which would indicate tire pressures too low and not enough camber.

 

I rotated the DWS's on my spec.b a little while ago after about 6k miles. Alignment pretty normal, I'll find the printout if you want. Very even wear. I run 42/40 psi.

[StHalcyon]

Keep in mind that my PZero Nero has gone through over 20K miles, and my normal driving habit is to set the tranny mode to Sport Sharp. I like aggressive driving. =)

[StHalcyon]

Yes, left side is the inside. Well, I'm off to pick up my car. We'll see what that report indicates since the tech knows I want the before/after report, and I have joked with him that I didn't want any leaning on the equipment or car. ;-)

[turbodog]

Is the outside shoulder infact excessively worn in that pic?

[BAC5.2]

It's hard to tell from that pic, but assuming the left side is the inside, that looks like excessive wear from toe in, which is more gradual across the tire. Toe out wear tends to be very concentrated on the inside inch or two of the tire. The outside shoulder (right) also appears to be worn hard, which would indicate tire pressures too low and not enough camber.

 

This would be my analysis as well.

[StHalcyon]

Keep in mind that I took the pic in macro mode, manual focus. So it has that curve effect. Later tonight I'll try to take another pic from afar, and crop it so it doesn't look round. =)

 

By the way, it looks like I have a new problem now. After running my Spec.B through their alignment today, they discovered that the camber on my rear right is seriously out of whack, and they can't adjust it. =( The technician suggested I check scoobytuner.com to get an upper control arm from either Perrin or Whiteline if I want to fix the camber issue. Apparently his racing buddy has a Legacy GT as well that's all tricked out.

 

Here's the last alignment report:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m96/sthalcyon/default/20110331_Prev_Alignment.jpg

 

Here's today's alignment report:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m96/sthalcyon/default/20110331_Curr_Alignment.jpg

[BAC5.2]

1) Look at the before toe on the first print. WAY out of whack. You ran that way for how long?

 

2) Look at todays. EVERY before setting was WAY different than your first printout.

 

0.06 toe out on the right rear is too much. -0.03 toe in on the left rear is too much.

0.05 out on the front right is too much. -0.02 on the front left is too much.

 

-0.1 front camber is too little. -1.7 is a little aggressive, but not bad.

 

If you want to adjust rear camber, get Whiteline's KCA399 bushing kit.

 

I'd order that kit, take the car back, have them max out the front camber and make it even. If they can get -.6 on the front left, match the front right to that. Have them match the rear camber to the front, or go a tenth more negative. ZERO toe, with 0.01 toe in at the rear at max.

 

Slightly more rear camber than front, and a slight toe-in in the back makes for a very stable, and understeer at the limit car.

 

The alignment you have right now is terrible for anyone interested in performance handling.

[StHalcyon]

Keep in mind that:

A) I get my wheels aligned every 6 months or so, or at least twice a year; and

B) The previous alignment was only 5,699 miles from today's work.

 

I would attribute the sudden change in toe setting in the front right to the nice potholes that we get here in Chicago during the winter, and not cause for the uneven wear on all 4 tires that have gone through over 20K miles, 4 rotations and 4 alignments. That's not to mention that the OEM tires that only has 7K miles that I kept in storage has the same thing on all 4 tires.

 

I guess you're still sticking to the toes as the only culprit, and if not that, bad alignment job.

[StHalcyon]

BTW, thanks for the recommendation for the bushing kit. I haven't decided if I should get that or not, since I'm going to try to see if Subaru will replace it under warranty. Something tells me not, but I'm going to try anyway.

 

I might get those alignment settings once I figure out a good and solid place where I can take my car in, based on the question I've posted to nasioc forums.

[BAC5.2]

Your right front gained 0.08º of toe in 6,000 miles. Your left front lost 0.10º in 6,000 miles. Your rears were also terribly affected. That is an awful lot of movement for 6,000 miles of driving.

 

I'm thinking that your dealership wasn't doing alignments correctly, or their machine was improperly calibrated. If the deck isn't perfectly level, that can change EVERYTHING.

[StHalcyon]

There is a reason to my madness for getting two alignments a year. Have you been to Chicago? Lake Shore Drive, Michigan Ave, Wacker Dr, lower LSD by Navy Pier. These are where I drive through almost every day to work. Anybody who lives here can attest to the horrendous state of disrepair our roads are, especially during the winter.

 

The reason why I had to get new set of tires is because I recently hit a new batch of potholes, so bad that it burst one of my tires, bent the rim on another one, and I'm going to assume screwed up my camber on the rear right.

[BAC5.2]

That's pretty bad. I drive in Baltimore, MD and Washington, DC pretty often and those roads can be rough.

 

I find myself aligning my car every few months because I want to make some kind of change. But, I do all of my alignments myself. I've gotten pretty fast at alignments and strut changes.