Subaru dual clutch auto....bring it!

[DanT55]

Would love to see Subaru come out with a dual clutch auto for its performance line...WRX, STi and Legacy GT.

 

Anybody heard any rumors??

 

Regards,

 

DT

[Sydtron]

100% certainty they'll have a dual clutch as manuals are phased out but don't hold your breath.

[DanT55]

Does anyone think it would be an in house design or something that they would outsource to say...... Jatco? If they could do something similar to the 370Z with rev matching that would be the ticket. I am hoping its only a matter of time.

 

DT

[Boostin1657615274]

in-house design? Most transmissions are outsourced in some way: Getrag, Borg Warner, Tremec, Jatco, etc. Jatco is a spinoff of Nissan just like Denso is a spinoff of Toyota.

[Sydtron]

Aisin might be another, they're pretty tight with Toyota and were rumored to be making a competitive dual clutch transmission a few years ago.

[ShrinerMonkey]

Let's hope it is outsourced. Ask Honda how designing a transmission in house turned out for them.

[Sideways the Seven]

Does anyone think it would be an in house design or something that they would outsource to say...... Jatco? If they could do something similar to the 370Z with rev matching that would be the ticket. I am hoping its only a matter of time.

 

DT

 

Please explain. The 370Z's SynchroRev Match is on the 6-speed manual transmission. Doesn't Subie already offer rev-matching in the 5-speed auto?

 

I find it funny that Hyundai's Veloster and the new Focus will have a dual-clutch, but Subie (and a few others) still has 4 (chuckle) and 5-speed slushbox autos. Actually if it's going to be anything like the one from Mitsu, I'd say they'd be better off sticking with adding an extra ratio to the 5-speed box.

[DanT55]

Please explain. The 370Z's SynchroRev Match is on the 6-speed manual transmission. Doesn't Subie already offer rev-matching in the 5-speed auto?

 

I find it funny that Hyundai's Veloster and the new Focus will have a dual-clutch, but Subie (and a few others) still has 4 (chuckle) and 5-speed slushbox autos. Actually if it's going to be anything like the one from Mitsu, I'd say they'd be better off sticking with adding an extra ratio to the 5-speed box.

 

Sorry, I had two thoughts going at once. If not a DC then syncro rev matching in the manual would be nice. Yes, the 5 speed auto does have this feature but I don't think the 5sp auto is very performance oriented to begin with and can't reliably deal with the power of an STI or Staged LGT.

 

Subaru has a fairly unique tranny layout so anything designed for them would have to meet their layout requirements, reliability and durability testing, etc. They may be made by another company but Subaru is ultimately responsible for the integration and performance.

 

Maybe they know something about long term reliability of DC auto's and DI engine's and are waiting for technology to improve or are still testing concepts? Either way I hope to see them do both in the next 1-2yrs!

[DanT55]

Aisin filed for a Dual Clutch patent in Feb of 2010 and it was published in Sept 2010. Not sure where this fits in with Subaru though.

[Sideways the Seven]

Sorry, I had two thoughts going at once. If not a DC then syncro rev matching in the manual would be nice. Yes, the 5 speed auto does have this feature but I don't think the 5sp auto is very performance oriented to begin with and can't reliably deal with the power of an STI or Staged LGT.

 

Subaru has a fairly unique tranny layout so anything designed for them would have to meet their layout requirements, reliability and durability testing, etc. They may be made by another company but Subaru is ultimately responsible for the integration and performance.

 

Maybe they know something about long term reliability of DC auto's and DI engine's and are waiting for technology to improve or are still testing concepts? Either way I hope to see them do both in the next 1-2yrs!

 

No worries, I just thought I'd missed something Nissan-related. LOL!

 

I will say that I was fairly isappointed in the Subie 5AT's rev-matching as opposed to the unit in the M35 I drove. The one in the Infiniti almost seemed telepathic in it's responses while the one in the Subie felt gimmicky.

 

The current Leggy 5 speed may not hold up to the current power of the STi or modded LGT/WRX, but I think it would be cheaper/wiser to reinforce these to handle the extra power as opposed to developing a DC gearbox while adding a 6th ratio for added economy.

 

Dual-clutch gearboxes found in most non-exotic applications don't actually handle extra power all that well and durability has come into question as of late-this could be why there hasn't been much talk in adopting one. Especially one that will use the layout that Subies have. Most "affordable" DC boxes are found in cars that are FWD or FWD-based AWD cars. I would think a longitudally configured box would be a more expensive venture Subaru is not quick to jump into. From what I've seen, it looks like they're more interested in refining their powerplants first.

 

Aisin filed for a Dual Clutch patent in Feb of 2010 and it was published in Sept 2010. Not sure where this fits in with Subaru though.

 

I would think they'd wind up staying with a Jatco unit.

[ehsnils]

Aisin filed for a Dual Clutch patent in Feb of 2010 and it was published in Sept 2010. Not sure where this fits in with Subaru though.

 

Since Subaru already has a CVT gearbox I can't see any real place for a double clutch gearbox.

 

And I suspect that the manual gearboxes will stick around a lot longer, especially in Europe.

[socalsleeper]

@ Tony

I have not heard any reliabiltity issues with DC transmissions that have not been directly linked to user abuse like hard launches and overheating the clutches. There are many ways to skin the proverbial cat but I am familiar with the new Porsche PDK and I like the design. Two manual trans in one housing and two wet clutches launch control and temp limiting for durability.

What I like about it the most is that trans could work in a Subaru if the was geared to spin in the right direction.( as is it is backward hence rear engine.)

[DanT55]

Since Subaru already has a CVT gearbox I can't see any real place for a double clutch gearbox.

 

And I suspect that the manual gearboxes will stick around a lot longer, especially in Europe.

 

If they drop a cvt into the LGT or STI it would ruin them. It's ok in the lower power base models but not for higher performance versions.

[seabass07]

I think the double clutch sequential gear box will come eventually. They already have a relationship with Jatco and they are pretty reliable transmissions. They will likely stick with them. I think the double clutch will be an option for the STI at some point down the line, but they will still keep the manual. Manuals aren't going anywhere. There will always be people who want more control of their drive train.

[ssbtech]

Manuals aren't going anywhere. There will always be people who want more control of their drive train.

 

Which is why Subaru offers such a wide array of cars with manuals

[ehsnils]

If they drop a cvt into the LGT or STI it would ruin them. It's ok in the lower power base models but not for higher performance versions.

 

Can you explain why that would be the case?

 

A CVT would be able to keep the engine continuously at optimal power output which a stepped gearbox can't.

 

The only real problem is to make sure that the CVT can handle the power - the rest is a software issue.

 

And don't say that CVT:s can't be used for racing - they have tried it in F1 already in 1993 but it was banned.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto]YouTube - Williams FW15C CVT[/ame]

[DanT55]

Cool vid! If they can make a CVT that can reliably handle the power then I would consider it.

 

I just like the feel and traditional aspects of ratio gear boxes and a DC auto would satisfy that with nice day to day driveability(auto) with excellent performance capability(manual). I have driven an Outback with CVT and it was not that enjoyable. Ruins the experience I guess you could say. Just my .02.

 

Rgds,

 

DT

[seabass07]

^

That's because the CVTs around now are being used for fuel economy, not performance. When a major manufacturer gets off their asses and makes a quality CVT that can take the abuse that it would withstand...non-stop peak torque, it will probably become popular.

[DanT55]

Hence my preference for a DC auto. Lighter, less expensive and more compact along with fitting into existing manual tranny packaging. CVT is now for the lower end of the market... small and/or lower powered cars needed to hit CAFE numbers.

 

That's my take until, like you said, someone brings one to the market that can deal with power and weight.

 

Until then lets stick with the dual clutch discussion!

 

DT

[Kenpachi]

Subaru's unique reliance on boxer engines causes transmission packaging issues. While not impossible, it is much more difficult/expensive for Subaru to introduce a new transmission.

 

DCTs do have reliability issues. VW has had at least one recall on their DCTs for control unit failures and have extended many powertrain warranties due to ongoing issues and loss of customer faith. IIRC, the price tag for the control unit repair for those outside of warranty was >2k. Many GTI owners that purchased a DSG will never buy another.

 

I would also recommend driving a DSG before jumping fully on that bandwagon. Many lurch during low-speed creep situations and will roll back significantly on a steep hill because the first clutch engages too slowly.

 

For me, the deal-breaker is the ~half second delay between when you hit the gas (from a complete stop) and when the car actually starts to move.

[Sideways the Seven]

@ Tony

I have not heard any reliabiltity issues with DC transmissions that have not been directly linked to user abuse like hard launches and overheating the clutches. There are many ways to skin the proverbial cat but I am familiar with the new Porsche PDK and I like the design. Two manual trans in one housing and two wet clutches launch control and temp limiting for durability.

What I like about it the most is that trans could work in a Subaru if the was geared to spin in the right direction.( as is it is backward hence rear engine.)

 

This

 

...DCTs do have reliability issues. VW has had at least one recall on their DCTs for control unit failures and have extended many powertrain warranties due to ongoing issues and loss of customer faith. IIRC, the price tag for the control unit repair for those outside of warranty was >2k. Many GTI owners that purchased a DSG will never buy another.

 

I would also recommend driving a DSG before jumping fully on that bandwagon. Many lurch during low-speed creep situations and will roll back significantly on a steep hill because the first clutch engages too slowly.

 

For me, the deal-breaker is the ~half second delay between when you hit the gas (from a complete stop) and when the car actually starts to move.

[DanT55]

How about the DC auto in the Mitsu Lancer Evo? Heard it was pretty darn good and actually better than what the Europeans have out now.

[Sideways the Seven]

A friend of mine has one of the new Lancer Ralliarts with the same transmission and Evo-beating mods and I hate that DCT. At low speeds it acts like a CVT, taking a second to engage and then it kinda slams into 2nd then it's 3rd4th5th6th up to ~45 mph, "OOPS stop sign coming up!" (brakes) 6th5th4th3rd2nd.....1st, no wait 2nd....now 1st. That thing is TOO busy! It's like some ADHD kid playing Pole Position. I guess it's okay if you're racing the pavement from light to light or stop sign to stop sign, but as a DD I would be annoyed.

[DanT55]

...ah, no wonder the Fozzy still has the 4EAT . I think there is a point of dimenisioning returns on how many gears you need to work thru. Anyway, I am surprised the Mitsu tranny goes to 6th at those speeds. Seems to be a programming issue. I need to go drive one and see how it feels.

 

DT

[Sideways the Seven]

LOL! I may have been exaggerating just a little bit about 6th gear, but go drive one and you'll see what I mean. It seems like it's shifting more to give a race car "feel" than as a necessity.