a couple issues with the Legacy?

[TAckhouse1]

I was reading my latest issue of motor trend, and came across a couple issues with the new legacy.

 

(these may have been discussed already)

 

First off MT lists the Legacy's 60-0 braking as 142 feet?

 

100-0 is listed as 416ft???

 

142? Thats horrible? A stock Toyota Camry does it in 118 feet? Are the Legacy's brakes really that bad?

 

(This was a reader submission and the editor responded that the numbers were not "mis-prints")

 

The second issue is regardin MT's long term test of te Legacy, it has to do with the climate control blowing hot then cold then hot then cold. Again it was taken to the dealer and this was diagnosed as normal????

 

I guess I am looking for some reassurance.

 

Nick

[rallispec]

as far as the climate control --- when left on full auto, it can be a little quirky at times (although for most part works pretty well) -- you can override it and put it on manual control, -- then it does whatever you tell it to do. (i've never had any weird expereinces with full manual control)

 

 

 

braking .... hmm.. seems like it brakes fine to me, i'm sure a better set of tires would really improve it more than anything else. (although, i believe that the camry also ships stock with the same RE-92's????)

[EXBMWFAN]

I think the brakes could use a little more help. I have overheated mine a few times now on a few high speed back road driving adventures.

[John M]

Climate control - yep, it does that.

 

Brakes - if a Camry really does stop in 118 ft, someone at Toyota deserves a raise. That's within a few feet of a Supra.

[madscot]

I have to admit, the brakes on my LGT Limited Wagon are a bit soft, but the car is only two weeks off the lot. When the wagon was in the shop for window tint and short throw shifter, the dealer gave me a 2.5i Sedan loaner with over 6000 miles on it and that car could stop on a dime.

[Bruno1453]

Maybe Motor Trend should retest?

[BadAndy]

The only things I've noticed with my LGT that I leased back in February is a noticeable sputter with more than 1/4 throttle from 2k-3k rpms and it's not turbo spool related. The other thing is when starting from a dead stop and right before the car stops as I'm decelerating there is a popping noise coming from the front right. I'm going to call the dealership after I get out of this meeting and schedule a time to drop the car off. Other than that I love this car! The brakes on this car are pretty good and somewhat comparable to my old '94 Cobra.

[TAckhouse1]

Intresting to hear you all chime in, thanks.

 

Am I the only one who sould mind if they dropped the auto climate control from the GT, and just gave us a manual one like in the 2.5i?

 

I am not sure how much of a money saver if would be, $500 mabey $1000? But I would rather get somthing else (like hid's ect...) instead...

 

at the very least I hope this is somthing Subaru is looking into...

 

I am hopping to see another test in a different mag, to compare the braking distances to...

 

-Nick

[924 turbo]

Well the 60-0 number is better according to Road and Track, Also Just so you know the Gallardo brakes from 60 in 118 ft.

 

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0410_rt_acura_subaru.pdf

[TAckhouse1]

Well the 60-0 number is better according to Road and Track, Also Just so you know the Gallardo brakes from 60 in 118 ft.

 

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0410_rt_acura_subaru.pdf

 

I know one of the major mags got a camry to stop in 118 ft 60-0

 

MT got it to do it in 121ft

 

http://motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0310_verd/index3.html

 

So within 3 ft, and thats with crappy stock tires...

[M. Schneider]

Oh' come on. Don't sugar coat the ACC issue. The Automatic Climate Control is seriously flawed. It is not idiosyncratic in operation, it plain does not work! Nice intention the ACC, less than crummy execution.

 

 

Christ... Subaru most likely didn't build the ACC as this area of a vehicle is often outsourced.

 

Subaru could easily make the ACC fix a priority with the OEM and I’m guessing for MY06 they have. It’s that flawed. This is a great car though seriously requiring attention with the ACC.

Did I mention the ACC...........................rant.

Cheers,

Mike

[rodan]

Even when on full manual mine will cycle hot/cold. It's not an auto feature, its temp related. I'd much rather have an old style hot --> cold dial than a "dial a temp" system...

[ChE Outback XT]

I haven't had any problem with my ACC. Haven't had it on cooling duty yet, it's just warming up here in Northern MN, but in the winter it was great.

[TAckhouse1]

I'd much rather have an old style hot --> cold dial than a "dial a temp" system...

 

I agree atleast on the non-limited GT. Save the fancy stuff for the limited.

 

And subtract $500-$1000 off the msrp of a non-limited GT! Now where talking.

 

-Nick

[BadAndy]

Well, I talked to my salesman just a few minutes ago and I'll be taking mine in today to get the popping noise and 2k-3k rpm stutter checked out.

[StringFellow]

I know one of the major mags got a camry to stop in 118 ft 60-0

 

MT got it to do it in 121ft

 

http://motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0310_verd/index3.html

 

So within 3 ft, and thats with crappy stock tires...

 

Well if you compare the Camry tires (Turanza) to the Subbie tires (RE92), the Camry tires are much better. I have had both tires and for spirited driving, the Turanza's are so much better. Also the Subbie is about 100Lbs heavier.

 

And like anything else, those numbers will vary based on driver, road conditions, number of miles on the car, etc.

 

-S

[TAckhouse1]

Well if you compare the Camry tires (Turanza) to the Subbie tires (RE92), the Camry tires are much better. I have had both tires and for spirited driving, the Turanza's are so much better. Also the Subbie is about 100Lbs heavier.

 

And like anything else, those numbers will vary based on driver, road conditions, number of miles on the car, etc.

 

-S

 

I think Subaru has some thinking to do, if a Toyota Camry comes with better tires from the factory then a Legacy GT.

 

Also I believe MT's Legacy is a manual so weigh is nearly the same between it and the Auto V6 Camry.

 

I agree it does vary based on driver.

 

But I still think those brakes need to be looked into.

[Deer Killer]

I've already warped my brakes... gotta take it in..

 

I found mostly the issue with the brakes is not being able to produce enough pedal power to get them to really get down.. I mean I've pushed myself back into my seat so far it's just not enough pressure when I'm trying.. and I drive up close already. "panic" braking definitely doesn't produce enough clamping force... which I was reminded again of today. In order to to do it I really have to prepare myself and even pull on the steering wheel to keep me in place.. and I used to squat 315 on a regular basis. Getting to 8/10th's is easy, beyond that is ridiculous..

[smoss]

I've already warped my brakes... gotta take it in..

 

I found mostly the issue with the brakes is not being able to produce enough pedal power to get them to really get down.. I mean I've pushed myself back into my seat so far it's just not enough pressure when I'm trying.. and I drive up close already. "panic" braking definitely doesn't produce enough clamping force... which I was reminded again of today. In order to to do it I really have to prepare myself and even pull on the steering wheel to keep me in place.. and I used to squat 315 on a regular basis. Getting to 8/10th's is easy, beyond that is ridiculous..

 

 

Remind me to stay off the road if you are driving...... Sounds like you are crazy behind the wheel.

[Deer Killer]

Remind me to stay off the road if you are driving...... Sounds like you are crazy behind the wheel.

I've been told...

[IwannaSportSedan]

From what you are saying, Deer killer, and I don't doubt you...

 

It sounds like a hydraulic problem. The Master cylinder doesn't have enough mechanical advantage over the pistons at the wheels, or doesn't flow enough fluid to exert the pressure...

 

Do other Subies, such as the WRX STi have this problem, too? Could a master cylinder and caliper swap from another car be a remedy?

 

I have wondered why the Legacy GT doesn't get 4 piston brakes on the front. (two pistons on each side of the caliper, pressing on both sides of the rotor, rather than just sliding the caliper to put pressure on the outside of the rotors...)

 

Does anybody have aftermarket big brake kits, that can comment on how just a caliper upgrade, without a master cylinder change, affects brake performance?

 

This sounds like a hydraulic system deficiency, like the possibility of a clutch delay valve affecting clutch action speed... Could Subaru have slightly under-engineered the hydraulics on this car? We all know this car is a performance bargain, is that where they may have cut costs?

[OCDetails]

I've had a couple close calls where some jackass in front of me decides to do the exact opposite from what it appears he is doing. The brakes and tires have always stopped me in time without me thinking that better tires and brakes are in order. However, I don't feel totally secure at certian speeds at certian points of frequently travled on and off ramps around town. That I feel is primarily because the tires don't feel like they are going to hold me on the road. For that reason I am looking forward to a new set of rims and tires for my more spirited driving moments. Overall I don't have any complaints. The tires and brakes hold up fine when I am obeying the law. Its when I start to bend the law that the parts could probably be upgraded and I would be happier.

[Driver72]

No, the LGT's brakes pretty much stink.

Do a search, it's been discussed MANY times.

 

They lack feel, they lack modulation, and the just plain lack

good stopping power for a car of this performance level.

I'll drive my other cars (well just about any other car) after driving

my LGT and the first time I have to come to a reasonably quick stop

I just about throw my face into the windshield on the other cars.

They almost all seem to stop and feel so much better.

I've also put better tires on and wider rims for more grip...helped a

bit, but the problem still lies in the bite of the stock pads and

the amount of pressure you need to push on the pedal to stop the

car.

 

As for the climate control...I just use manual mode...no issues so far.

[IwannaSportSedan]

If you take into account the racer's mantra that I have heard, then brakes are the first thing you consider.

 

When building a car, or modding a car, (and hopefully when designing a performance car for a car manufacturer) the order that things happen is this: (what I have heard from racers and builders)

 

1: Consumeables. Tires, brake pads, quality lubricants and fuel, etc. The easy stuff.

2: Brakes. Before any other performance addition, make sure you can stop.

3: Handling. Dampers, springs, anti-roll bars, and stiffeners if needed.

4: Power. Engine performance and drivetrain strengthening to get more performance out of the previous modifications.

 

Ideally the first mods, like the brakes, you have a plan, goal, and general destination, and you can plan the beginning upgrades to complement the later mods.

Essentially, if you plan big power, put on big brakes first, so that the power doesn't overkill the stopping ability when you're done.

 

IF subaru wants to be taken seriously as a maker of performance cars that are safe (with their AWD, Ring safety cage, and air bags) they need to engineer the basic systems to handle the performance that the cars are designed to have.

 

Subie shouldn't put average or modest braking power under a car that is capable of less than 6 seconds 0-60, and if de-restricted, more than 140mph.

 

Even with the limiter at 135mph, any engineer worth their salt would not put brakes under the car that can only adequately handle 70mph at best. The legal speed limit in the US should not enter into the equation, or else the limiter would be set at 75.

 

If folks are talking about long braking distances, panic stops, inability to use the brakes past 8/10ths of their intended force, and having to stand on the pedal and still being unsatisfied with the deceleration, all point to inadequacy, even if that inadequacy isn't usually obvious. That is the most dangerous, where the brakes don't come through in a clutch, when you need them the absolute most.

 

When I test drove a Legacy, the brakes were fine around town. When I got on the interstate, I was very impressed by the noticeable pull of accelleration. When exiting the same interstate, I was not disappointed with the braking, but I was a bit underwhelmed at the lack of "bite." The car did decelerate, but it didn't feel particularly like I was "pulling back on the reins."

 

Better tires go without saying here, but maybe pads will make the difference. Maybe stainless braided lines to limit bulging. Maybe it needs calipers with more pistons. Maybe it needs a larger master cylinder for more leverage over the calipers. Maybe all of the above would give it world class braking.

 

I'd rather pay for truly confident and competent braking within the price of the car, rather than things like NAV, which some people want, or ACC, which we don't have the option not to take, and seems not to work seamlessly (which I had to turn off on my test drive, it was intrusive). I'd probably also take better brakes before better HID lighting, because people haven't been complaining about the above average halogen lighting. It's all about priorities, I guess.

[XT6Wagon]

The brakes on the LGT are not great, but not bad. I've been able to follow STi's into a corner under braking. For ONE corner. They fade like no other, and I don't know if its the rotors warping when real hot or the pads going south but pedal pulsation after a bit of abuse is an issue. My guess is its the pads as in the past warped rotors tend to stay a bit warped after cooling, and in this case after cooling the car is back to normal.

 

That said I have stoptechs on now and they are much better.