Zeus Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 For you guys who replaced the flywheel, is the TP50 for the flywheel bolts an internal or external socket? Will be doing the deed Sunday, and riding a motorcycle for another week in the cold is not an option for this old fart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Mine makes the same noise. It's just part of the deal I guess. It has nothing to with your gear oil. It must have something to do with the disc or PP. The FW has no moving parts and is thick as hell, so I don't see how that makes noise. FWs will "make" noise when changed out from stock due to less damping effect on the power pulses of a 4-cyl engine. 4-cyls deliver power in an uneven manner (pulse, relax, pulse, relax) to the drivetrain. Things aren't perfectly tight. So you get a very quick staccato of the gears hitting, relaxing slightly, and hitting again. Not a prolem really, just the nature of the beast. A DM flywheel actually has two masses that are allowed to seperately rotate a few degrees, thereby removing this pulsation from the power transmitted to the engaged clutch on the other side. A heavy flywheel simply dampens the pulses more by having more momentum and less relaxation in between pulses. And, in some cases, a different weighting from stock will cause the harmonics of the engine to resonate at certain speeds. So though the Flywheel has no moving parts, it can create or remove noise from the system. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eL GaTo Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I came across this from another forum and it seems to shed some light on the gear noises after an ACT clutch kit install...... Answers... I suppose that input from a manufacture is relevant to this discussion and I think that the information I can provide will assist in the understanding of this topic. To begin, it is important to understand that the flywheel's primary purpose is the transmittance of power from the motor to the transmission and thus the drive-shaft, differential and axels (on a rear wheel drive vehicle specifically). For decades the majority of manufactures used single-mass flywheels without question and even to this day a number of cars still do. The recent (predominantly during the last decade) onslaught of dual-mass flywheels coincides with several factors. These include but are not limited too: Increased vehicle weight and the need for greater inertia to induce movement from a stop, a greater desire for more refinement and the subsequent negative perception of gear noise (a.k.a. clatter not chatter--this term is often misused and misunderstood) which is associated with the use of non-dampened flywheels, believed improvements in fuel economy (I have used a number of single and dual-mass flywheels and have never personally noticed any reduction in said fuel economy when using a lightened flywheel), and finally dampened clutch engagement and improved drivability in low RPM usage. Initially, the above functionality was relegated to a clutch discs that used sprung hub carriers. With the advent of the dual-mass flywheel the majority of manufactures moved to rigid hub carriers with the exception of certain luxury brands which produce high power/high refinement vehicles (two that come to mind are the Porsche 911TT and the Audi S4). I guess that this is enough of the history lesson…let’s move on the discussion at hand. In light of the above information I assume that you now have a better understanding of the intent associated with the use of a dual-mass flywheel. But I am sure you are curious about how this relates to balance and harmonics and ultimately how this compares to the impact of a crank pulley. DaveB seems to espouse that internally balanced motors really aren’t internally balanced…and that this inherent lack of balance is actually countered by a dual mass-flywheel and the vehicle crank-pulley. It is important to understand that balance, or lack there of, will be amplified as RPM’s increase (there is also a relationship between the imbalance and its proximity to the centerline of the rotating assembly as well but this is not mentioned so I will not address it in this discussion). The most telling part of the Dave’s postulation relates to his reference to the dimples on the back of the crank pulley. If taken at face value these dimples could be perceived as counter-balance weights like those found on the flywheels used in Ford’s 5.0L motors and GM’s 5.7L LT1 motors. In reality the dimples are not intended for counter balancing…but rather are evidence of material removed during manufacturing to attain a 0-balance weighting for the part (in vehicle that are 0-balanced). As with any rotating component weight can be added or removed relative to the parts intended use and needed balancing (This is similar to having a wheel and tire balanced and it is done due to an outage in the parts when initially manufactured or as a result of the combined outage achieved in mounting the tire on the wheel). In the case of the pulley and the flywheel there is no need for modified external weighting unless this is intended to offset an intentional externally dependent balance as in the aforementioned Ford and GM motors. If you are interested in checking this theory you can have a pulley or flywheel (intended for use on an internally balance motor) spun on a dynamic balancer. There will be an acceptable balance tolerance for each part determined by the manufacture. Outage is measured in oz-in/radius (this is how the location of the outage, relative to the assemblies center line, comes into play—I alluded to this previously). There are often bushings or cushion dampeners used in tandum with the pully to aid in reducing harmonics. These are generally rubberized, and a number of you have alluded to this already. I do not manufacture pulley's but I don't know why a rubberized dampener couldn't be built into an aftermarket pulley. In preparation for Dave’s likely response I would like to provide further information relative to flywheels and the clatter that results from the replacement of a dual-mass flywheel with a single-mass unit. The sound actually originates in the transmission and not the motor. Clatter, which is also known as gear noise (it is called this for a reason), is dependent on the internal tolerances of the transmission used. Weaker tolerances and today’s more eco friendly petroleum distillates, specifically in this instance gear oils (as well as the use of lower viscosity fluids intended to further improve gas mileage) are what lead to the need for better dampening. Previously I mentioned the use of sprung hub discs for dampening, and though this is a great way to reduce the harshness of clutch engagement it cannot eliminate gear noise. I hope this information helps. If you all have any questions or need further explanation please let me know. Thanks! P.S. I am sure that you all realize that there is a difference between dampening and balancing. I took this for granted in the above post. P.S.S Dave i only used your examples because they were already available in this thread...no harm intended! I am not trying to single you out...you simply provided the most complete support for your stance. __________________ SPEC Clutches and Flywheels (800-828-4379 x.109) "Remember..."MODDING is a HOBBY:icon_bigg, not a BAAAD HABIT";) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 The one thing I will mention in relation to the above post is that owners are experiencing what I will call gear noise (in gear deceleration noises in specific RPM ranges) after installing an ACT HD Clutch/Pressure Plate while still using a stock-style single-mass flywheel that does not cause gear clatter. In other words, owners who either stick with a single mass flywheel (07+ LGTs, 06+ WRXs) and upgrade the clutch or owners who move to a 07+ LGT style flywheel (05-06 LGT) and an upgraded clutch both experience this noise, but 07+ LGT owners with the same flywheel but a different clutch/pressure plate do not experience the noise. My guess is that the ACT sprung hub spring rates are not sufficiently damping the pulses transmitted through the single-mass flywheel. Just my guess. To on of the points raised, I'd like to see a few more owners switch to a more viscous gear lubricant and report their opinions. I'm using amsoil severe gear 75w110 (which is just at the highest end of the 75w90 range of viscosity), and though I am stock I experienced a good amount of decrease in the gear noise my car normally experienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1astrokeit Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 The one thing I will mention in relation to the above post is that owners are experiencing what I will call gear noise (in gear deceleration noises in specific RPM ranges) after installing an ACT HD Clutch/Pressure Plate while still using a stock-style single-mass flywheel that does not cause gear clatter. In other words, owners who either stick with a single mass flywheel (07+ LGTs, 06+ WRXs) and upgrade the clutch or owners who move to a 07+ LGT style flywheel (05-06 LGT) and an upgraded clutch both experience this noise, but 07+ LGT owners with the same flywheel but a different clutch/pressure plate do not experience the noise. My guess is that the ACT sprung hub spring rates are not sufficiently damping the pulses transmitted through the single-mass flywheel. Just my guess. To on of the points raised, I'd like to see a few more owners switch to a more viscous gear lubricant and report their opinions. I'm using amsoil severe gear 75w110 (which is just at the highest end of the 75w90 range of viscosity), and though I am stock I experienced a good amount of decrease in the gear noise my car normally experienced. So your saying that the cause of the chatter is from the spring hub in the act clutch? U think it could be not enought pressure on the hub springs? Or then are loose? Should I stay away from act then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I'm speculating that the springs in the hub of the ACT clutch are not appropriately absorbing some of the power pulses transmitted through the flywheel, which then results in the gears clattering a bit at certain speeds. It's pure speculation though, because people are reporting using an essentially stock flywheel and a different clutch and pressure plate and suddenly getting gear noise consistent with gears tapping each other. The only thing i can think of is the clutch hub not absorbing, fully, the twists and relaxations of the single-mass flywheel transmitting power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby2.5 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 The one thing I will mention in relation to the above post is that owners are experiencing what I will call gear noise (in gear deceleration noises in specific RPM ranges) after installing an ACT HD Clutch/Pressure Plate while still using a stock-style single-mass flywheel that does not cause gear clatter. In other words, owners who either stick with a single mass flywheel (07+ LGTs, 06+ WRXs) and upgrade the clutch or owners who move to a 07+ LGT style flywheel (05-06 LGT) and an upgraded clutch both experience this noise, but 07+ LGT owners with the same flywheel but a different clutch/pressure plate do not experience the noise. My guess is that the ACT sprung hub spring rates are not sufficiently damping the pulses transmitted through the single-mass flywheel. Just my guess. To on of the points raised, I'd like to see a few more owners switch to a more viscous gear lubricant and report their opinions. I'm using amsoil severe gear 75w110 (which is just at the highest end of the 75w90 range of viscosity), and though I am stock I experienced a good amount of decrease in the gear noise my car normally experienced. Agreed. Many a 06 WRX with the stock clutch has the noise, as reported on NASIOC. If the 07 LGT doesnt have the noise maybe they did something else like you are saying to the clutch/pressure plate. I really like the above article that el gato posted because it points out the CRANK PULLY, as well as flywheel. I have a crank pully, 06 flywheel, group N motor mounts, group N tranny mount. I am sure all this contributes to the noise as well. Its not bad though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby2.5 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 By the way I am not sure if they put my brand new Extra S gear oil back in, I forgot to tell them I had just changed it a couple of weeks ago. I am going to change it out again this weekend though and Ill see if it helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eL GaTo Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 The article I posted actually mentioned "clatter"(gear noise), not chatter. This was confirmed when I took the car back because the mechanics, including me, were all underneath my car and we were all trying to figure out where the noise was coming from. They probed the clutch & tranny housings with the mech. stethoscope and found the noise mainly in the tranny area. NOTE: I HAD NO ISSUES WITH THIS NOISE PRIOR TO CLUTCH REPLACEMENT. I am convinced that the Double Mass Flywheel was designed to lessen the Harmonics. What I am hoping for, cuz I really like the ACT setup, is that the gear clatter will not result in tranny problems later on. I will try a heavier oil this summer. Seriously thinking, though we do not have high revving engines, of installing an ATI Super damper. A few of us has this. I would love to hear from this few. "Remember..."MODDING is a HOBBY:icon_bigg, not a BAAAD HABIT";) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eL GaTo Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Just wondering, does ACT read our posts.........we'd love to hear from them. "Remember..."MODDING is a HOBBY:icon_bigg, not a BAAAD HABIT";) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSpeed Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 What turbo clearance issue are you guys referring to? John, are you doing a clutch soon? Mine is going out fast (can't give it more than marginal throttle at low rpms without it spinning to redline) and Bert's is on its way out as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1astrokeit Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 those of you who did the clutch n tsk3 install themselves, which method of removal did you use? did you remove the axles to install the tsk kit or did you just slide the trans back with axles still installed n install the tsk kit that way? i want to know which way is easier but also faster. if you removed the axles, did you have to undo the balljoints or do u have enough play to slide them out of the trans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94sportsedan Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Left axles in, did not touch balljoints. Was able to slide trans back 8-10" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1astrokeit Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Left axles in, did not touch balljoints. Was able to slide trans back 8-10" Did you also install the TSK3 kit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94sportsedan Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Yes, that took about 5 minutes if that. If I could figure out how to insert pictures in here besides using a hosted url I would post a picture with how much room you have to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeus Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Did the TSK3 along with an 07' clutch/flywheel today. I set the trans on the ground for all that though... only took about 15 mins to get it stabbed back in. Then again, I'm an ape who manhandled it pretty good. Popped the ball joints/trans end of the axles and zip tied them out of the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeus Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 ...thus far anyway. After installing everything, took the car out for about a half hour to make sure there were no bugs before the wife drives it to work in the morning. Only thing different "I" noticed was initially, the ECU had to relearn idle when suddenly disengaging the clutch at low speed. Car almost died. I'm assuming due to the lighter flywheel. However, by the end of my drive it was pretty much gone. Other than that, no decel noises, no more NVH noticed in the car. That's with the OE Subaru parts though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSpeed Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Left axles in, did not touch balljoints. Was able to slide trans back 8-10" Man I hope I can get this method to work, sounds so much quicker and less painful... Any tips? The turbo fitment was ok going back together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 ...thus far anyway. After installing everything, took the car out for about a half hour to make sure there were no bugs before the wife drives it to work in the morning. Only thing different "I" noticed was initially, the ECU had to relearn idle when suddenly disengaging the clutch at low speed. Car almost died. I'm assuming due to the lighter flywheel. However, by the end of my drive it was pretty much gone. Other than that, no decel noises, no more NVH noticed in the car. That's with the OE Subaru parts though. If you disconnected the battery then it'll stall once or twice. Mine did the same thing. Next journey was fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeus Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Wife had no complaints in rush hour AM/PM today, so guess all is well. She's pretty happy... The ES shifter bushing was really needing some lube, so the shifter action is smooth again. All jokes a side, funny how you don't know what you're missing til you put some lube on it. Only thing left is... well, does the clutch petal have adjustment in it? A quick look, and I didn't see the adjustment nut like on other cars I've worked on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoopMan Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Excellent thread. My clutch is starting to slip with 69k miles, so I am looking at the various options. So why is the TSK3 considered so fantastic anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby2.5 Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Read this thread, in post 53 I give a run down. http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119089 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby2.5 Posted November 17, 2010 Share Posted November 17, 2010 POST 315 http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...103494&page=13 Many thanks to lots of people here in that posted here and on REXNET (Australia). I had this problem for three years with an Exedy HD clutch, which is the same as a exedy “OEM replacement” but with a different pressure plate (clutch cover). Good and bad news to people, the problem seems to be the disc springs on exedy clutch. The thing is that exedy "OEM replacement" is NOT OEM! Please see pics below. The real OEM clutch has smaller springs with two extra coils, another spring inside (dual spring) with a subaru part number written on it. I basically followed the Subaru part of service bulletin (may 1st, 03 NUMBER:03-51-02R) and ordered for my 04 WRX wagon, 5MT 2L turbo Shopping list Flywheel: 12342AA071 Clutch Disc: 30100AA881 Clutch cover: 30210AA630 Bearing: 30502AA080 Bolts (need 8 ) 800508310 However I suspect that most people can get away with just the clutch cover and disc replacement. Also I found that redline oil will aggravate the problem, more so if you run heavyweight in the rear diff. I had LWSP in the box and when I flushed it out the rattle decreased but was still there. I suspect due to the friction modifiers causing gear backlash, in short LWSP is too thick for the box, diffs are now quieter as well since switch back to OEM castrol. Also lightweight flywheels will cause this issue but thats been addressed in this thread already. The real OEM clutch is feather light and grips, its like the new MY08-10 clutch. Not only does it not rattle but it so much smoother, grips better, responded so much better (might also be due to the updated OEM flywheel) and very light. Joy to drive, I can finally go downhill with being embarrassed and drive in traffic without getting a sore knee. Out with the old in with the new Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby2.5 Posted November 22, 2010 Share Posted November 22, 2010 Well today I did what others have said.... Put 34 lbs in the front tires and 32 lbs in the rear tires, added a bit more tranny fluid to put it a bit above the full hole. This caused the deceleration noise to significantly reduce and shifted the noise to only be right around the 2000 RPM range instead of more around 2500. So if you have this noise at least give it a shot. I may even go 3 lbs difference front to back to see if that does anything more. Much happier after trying this. Not perfect but much better. By the way I have Group N mounts, tranny and engine, and Extra-S fluid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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