Subaru marches on in U.S. but more work ahead

[MJ in PA]

Somewhere on this forum somebody posted a picture of a 4th gen and a 5th gen Legacy together parked at an angle by a sign in front of a dealership, and the contrast was quite stark. The nose on the 2010 is so ungainly looking, and the car is nowhere near as sleek.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I drove this car today. On the nice side... It had memory seats, Folding mirrors, Push button start with keyless entry, rear air vents, 3 stage heated seats, and a great sound system.

 

Wow. Subaru DENIES most of that stuff to the BM Legacy, when the BL or JDM series Legacys have most of that... and HOW much does a Suzuki cost again?

 

The exterior looks like a caricature of a car. Oversized tail pipes, oversized duck tail in the trunk lid, Massive side marker turn signals on the front.

 

Actually I kind of agree with you there. The details and the rounded lines make the car look a bit soft. It is still just a tad visually odd that the front side doors are visually longer than the rear side doors.

 

On the other hand... it in NO WAY AT ALL compares to an A4, TSX, BL, or BM Legacy. The fact they have the balls to put it out there as such is laughable.......

 

Your points may be valid. I don't know that much about Kizashi, as it doesn't interest me much.

 

But Suzuki, as well as Kia/Hyundai seem to have balls.

 

I wish Subaru still did. Subaru's product planning choices, in North America especially, seem to be neutered and lethargic.

[Verwilderd]

Somewhere on this forum somebody posted a picture of a 4th gen and a 5th gen Legacy together parked at an angle by a sign in front of a dealership, and the contrast was quite stark. The nose on the 2010 is so ungainly looking, and the car is nowhere near as sleek.

 

Those were my pics.

[The B4]

Wow. Subaru DENIES most of that stuff to the BM Legacy, when the BL or JDM series Legacys have most of that... and HOW much does a Suzuki cost again?

 

The FWD model was just over $27k which was virtually the same as the 2.5i Limited and the AWD model was $2k more. I'm not willing to pay almost $30k for that sorry. And it quite sad that even with all that equipment... the Legacy is still a much nicer car.

 

Have you ever taken a look at what Subaru's cost in ROW where they get all the stuff they don't get in the US? The most BASIC 2.5i Legacy Sedan is only $6,745 less than the most basic 325i in Germany. It only goes up from there. The US gulf between a base Legacy and the 330i is $12,160. That's almost double. If Subaru charged the price premium for those better equipped cars here vs. other vehicles like they do in the rest of the world... Subaru would price themselves right out of the market.

 

Your points may be valid. I don't know that much about Kizashi, as it doesn't interest me much.

 

But Suzuki, as well as Kia/Hyundai seem to have balls.

 

I wish Subaru still did. Subaru's product planning choices, in North America especially, seem to be neutered and lethargic.

 

Suzuki is making a Hail Mary pass in order to keep themselves from going extinct. I would challenge you to take a look at it and tell me if it's a worthy effort for such a means.

 

Kia/Hyundai are in a league of their own. They are a matter of national pride for Korea and are heavily supported by the Korean government in a way no other car company selling in the US is (bailout aside). They have a gigantic competitive advantage based on their existing size and level of government participation. I applaud the moves Hyundai and Kia are making.

 

Hyundai and Kia sold over 4 million vehicles globally last year. Subaru didn't even break 700,000. I imagine the difference in company size has an impact in what one company is capable of vs. the other.

 

For all the amazing bells and whistles and the unique positioning of Subaru... The US was 72% of FHI's passenger cars last year... Subaru has to do what it takes to make 72% of its business grow and be profitable.

[captainhook]

The "more work ahead" I sincerely hope would include improving reliability considering Subaru has fallen towards the bottom of the pack recently. The 2010 Legacy exterior is just plain disgusting no matter how you slice it, and it's certainly done being any sort of "sport sedan." Right here is the only kind of aftermarket transformation this thing is good for: http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2009/11/sema-2009-subaru-legacy-gets-vip-style-at-aftermarket-expo.html

[The B4]

I must have missed something. Last I saw, Subaru was still at the top of the reliability charts with the exception of the 09 WRX.

[Verwilderd]

+1...and I wonder if the wrx only truly suffers because of driver and not Subaru. That's a car I see come in the shop often times, however in most cases it only broke because of abuse.

[IwannaSportSedan]

The FWD model was just over $27k which was virtually the same as the 2.5i Limited and the AWD model was $2k more. I'm not willing to pay almost $30k for that sorry. And it quite sad that even with all that equipment... the Legacy is still a much nicer car.

 

If Suzuki can pack that much equipment into Kizashi, why does Subaru not?

 

Hiring a competent designer over just a warm-body designer isn't that much of a difference, when that cost is amortized per car, and good design sells more cars.

 

The same with interior materials. the difference between good, and hard-as-a-carp can't be that huge, when good will make a better impression in the showroom, and possibly sell a couple of units to the undecided.

 

Have you ever taken a look at what Subaru's cost in ROW where they get all the stuff they don't get in the US? The most BASIC 2.5i Legacy Sedan is only $6,745 less than the most basic 325i in Germany. It only goes up from there. The US gulf between a base Legacy and the 330i is $12,160. That's almost double. If Subaru charged the price premium for those better equipped cars here vs. other vehicles like they do in the rest of the world... Subaru would price themselves right out of the market.

 

You have to be kidding. BMWs are almost like Chevys or Buicks in Germany. They are more affordable in their home market than anywhere else.

 

Subarus have to be shipped, imported, processed, and handled between Japan and Germany, through many people's hands, and all of those people need to make a living.

 

If you are going to compare Legacy to a BMW in Germany... Compare BMW to Legacy in JAPAN, on LEGACY's home turf. Oh, that is right. Japan has a comparatively restricted auto market that is favorable to domestic companies.

 

Suzuki is making a Hail Mary pass in order to keep themselves from going extinct. I would challenge you to take a look at it and tell me if it's a worthy effort for such a means.

 

Kia/Hyundai are in a league of their own. They are a matter of national pride for Korea and are heavily supported by the Korean government in a way no other car company selling in the US is (bailout aside). They have a gigantic competitive advantage based on their existing size and level of government participation. I applaud the moves Hyundai and Kia are making.

 

Hyundai and Kia sold over 4 million vehicles globally last year. Subaru didn't even break 700,000. I imagine the difference in company size has an impact in what one company is capable of vs. the other.

 

Suzuki may be making a hail mary pass. The car may not be up to par, I don't know, and I am not interested in the Kizashi, anyway. But the fact remains, they are being bold. Subaru could stand to be bolder than they currently are.

 

Being bold, with the original Outback, when everything else was SUV... paid off.

 

Being bold, and sticking to it, and bringing the WRX, and then the STI to the US market PAID OFF.

 

Legacy GT didn't, because nobody knew about it, and it wasn't as flashy, nor as well marketed as "Crocodile Dundee", or as much of a killer feature as turbocharged AWD sub-compact offering to the sub-compact tuner crowd was.

 

Subaru could have done better with the BL Legacy GT, on a market awareness front.

 

For all the amazing bells and whistles and the unique positioning of Subaru... The US was 72% of FHI's passenger cars last year... Subaru has to do what it takes to make 72% of its business grow and be profitable.

 

And all of that was Outback and Forester, with a little bit of Impreza. Legacy has been ignored for YEARS, until they deemed it necessary to change the entire focus of the car, rather than get the hint to actually tell people about the products Subaru wants to sell to them.

[MJ in PA]

Those were my pics.

 

No there was another set of pics with a non-lowered 4th gen, but yeah, your photos showed it as well.

[krzyss]

The FWD model was just over $27k which was virtually the same as the 2.5i Limited and the AWD model was $2k more. I'm not willing to pay almost $30k for that sorry. And it quite sad that even with all that equipment... the Legacy is still a much nicer car.

 

Have you ever taken a look at what Subaru's cost in ROW where they get all the stuff they don't get in the US? The most BASIC 2.5i Legacy Sedan is only $6,745 less than the most basic 325i in Germany. It only goes up from there. The US gulf between a base Legacy and the 330i is $12,160. That's almost double. If Subaru charged the price premium for those better equipped cars here vs. other vehicles like they do in the rest of the world... Subaru would price themselves right out of the market.

 

 

 

Suzuki is making a Hail Mary pass in order to keep themselves from going extinct. I would challenge you to take a look at it and tell me if it's a worthy effort for such a means.

 

Kia/Hyundai are in a league of their own. They are a matter of national pride for Korea and are heavily supported by the Korean government in a way no other car company selling in the US is (bailout aside). They have a gigantic competitive advantage based on their existing size and level of government participation. I applaud the moves Hyundai and Kia are making.

 

Hyundai and Kia sold over 4 million vehicles globally last year. Subaru didn't even break 700,000. I imagine the difference in company size has an impact in what one company is capable of vs. the other.

 

For all the amazing bells and whistles and the unique positioning of Subaru... The US was 72% of FHI's passenger cars last year... Subaru has to do what it takes to make 72% of its business grow and be profitable.

 

Did you check how much this difference has to do with custom's duties?

It is hard to compare prices from different countries.

 

What if FHI has enough margins in US that it can subsidize EU? Unlikely but possible.

 

If new Legacy sells well in US and flops everywhere else we will see the same thing that Honda and Mazda did - separate, larger car for US and smaller one everywhere else. Maybe the smaller one could be sold here too (like Acura TSX that is Honda Accord).

 

It may sway me to consider new Subarus (wife is hard set agaist WRX).

 

Krzys

[Viber]

Someone tell Infiniti SI Drive is a gimmick

 

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/12/22-la-2011-infiniti-m-live.jpg

[Verwilderd]

Dude, you don't even know what this really does. So why are you comparing it to the SI-drive? Until you know what it is/does stop bring it up....plus even if it is exactly like the si-drive, maybe they did it better than subaru....or maybe it's bs just like subarus.

[Verwilderd]

No there was another set of pics with a non-lowered 4th gen, but yeah, your photos showed it as well.

 

I took those as well.

[The B4]

Did you check how much this difference has to do with custom's duties?

It is hard to compare prices from different countries.

 

What if FHI has enough margins in US that it can subsidize EU? Unlikely but possible.

 

If new Legacy sells well in US and flops everywhere else we will see the same thing that Honda and Mazda did - separate, larger car for US and smaller one everywhere else. Maybe the smaller one could be sold here too (like Acura TSX that is Honda Accord).

 

It may sway me to consider new Subarus (wife is hard set agaist WRX).

 

Krzys

 

I read an article where the Legacy is doing really well in Australia... which is it's 3rd largest market and where it enjoys it highest market share.

[Guest heightsgtltd]

and AU is also where they offer high-end options and engine packages

[The B4]

and AU is also where they offer high-end options and engine packages

 

And Subaru of Australia is struggling to make money. There's not enough margin in the cars for the price they have to charge. and 3rd largest market still being only 20% as big as the US.

[legacy_y_tu]

If Suzuki can pack that much equipment into Kizashi, why does Subaru not?

 

Hiring a competent designer over just a warm-body designer isn't that much of a difference, when that cost is amortized per car, and good design sells more cars.

 

The same with interior materials. the difference between good, and hard-as-a-carp can't be that huge, when good will make a better impression in the showroom, and possibly sell a couple of units to the undecided.

 

 

 

You have to be kidding. BMWs are almost like Chevys or Buicks in Germany. They are more affordable in their home market than anywhere else.

 

Subarus have to be shipped, imported, processed, and handled between Japan and Germany, through many people's hands, and all of those people need to make a living.

 

If you are going to compare Legacy to a BMW in Germany... Compare BMW to Legacy in JAPAN, on LEGACY's home turf. Oh, that is right. Japan has a comparatively restricted auto market that is favorable to domestic companies.

 

 

 

Suzuki may be making a hail mary pass. The car may not be up to par, I don't know, and I am not interested in the Kizashi, anyway. But the fact remains, they are being bold. Subaru could stand to be bolder than they currently are.

 

Being bold, with the original Outback, when everything else was SUV... paid off.

 

Being bold, and sticking to it, and bringing the WRX, and then the STI to the US market PAID OFF.

 

Legacy GT didn't, because nobody knew about it, and it wasn't as flashy, nor as well marketed as "Crocodile Dundee", or as much of a killer feature as turbocharged AWD sub-compact offering to the sub-compact tuner crowd was.

 

Subaru could have done better with the BL Legacy GT, on a market awareness front.

 

 

 

And all of that was Outback and Forester, with a little bit of Impreza. Legacy has been ignored for YEARS, until they deemed it necessary to change the entire focus of the car, rather than get the hint to actually tell people about the products Subaru wants to sell to them.

 

 

This is exactly why the previous gen. Legacy didn't sell as well as it could have. It's been said before and a funny/sad thing happened to me the other day that really drove home this point. I was pumping gas and the guy in front of me was eyeballing my car. He was driving a 05 Forester XT. So anyway, he starts asking me what kind of Subaru my car is, saying how nice looking it is. I So I proceed to tell him all about the Legacy wagon and it's similarities/differences from his Forester XT(so here's a Subaru guy and even he wasn't aware of the Legacy wagons existence). At the end of the conversation he says hows he really likes it and would swing by the Subaru dealership to check one out since he was lloking to replace the Forester. At this point I had to tell him obviously they stopped making the wagon and that the new Legacy sedan looks nothing like my car. He certainly sounded disappointed. Now one could argue that this was one guy..... but I feel there were many more people who were unaware of this car based on my own shopping experience. I literally stumbled on this car in my car buying research.... no Subaru advertising made me aware this car even existed.

 

Unfortunately, the new Legacy does not interest me. Between the decontenting plus the fact that I can't get a turbo Automatic just turns me off. Plus it really is starting to look and feel like a Camry/Accord fighter, not a Audi/Infiniti/BMW challenger.

[Viber]

Dude, you don't even know what this really does. So why are you comparing it to the SI-drive? Until you know what it is/does stop bring it up....plus even if it is exactly like the si-drive, maybe they did it better than subaru....or maybe it's bs just like subarus.

 

If it was BS, I would have zero fuel economy improvement. Even if it is only 2MPG, it was money saved when gas was ass rapingly high

 

Or is it only BS because the USDM car lacks it?

 

There's a handful of shills that will swear up and down if Subaru turned the Legacy into a cardboard box with wheels and no engine that its an improvement over what we had between 2005 and 2009.

 

Sorry, not buying it. I know BS when I hear it. The fatties and grannies might be scammed into thinking they aren't losing anything. But every time I sit in my 2008 I know better.

[The B4]

If it was BS, I would have zero fuel economy improvement. Even if it is only 2MPG, it was money saved when gas was ass rapingly high

 

Or is it only BS because the USDM car lacks it?

 

There's a handful of shills that will swear up and down if Subaru turned the Legacy into a cardboard box with wheels and no engine that its an improvement over what we had between 2005 and 2009.

 

Sorry, not buying it. I know BS when I hear it. The fatties and grannies might be scammed into thinking they aren't losing anything. But every time I sit in my 2008 I know better.

 

can you quantify your mpg gains?

[captainhook]

I must have missed something. Last I saw, Subaru was still at the top of the reliability charts with the exception of the 09 WRX.

Yeah, you sure did. Let me enlighten you . . .

http://www.blog.automotiveaddicts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/2008-jd-power-vds-1.jpg

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/quality-ratings-by-brand

. . . really at the top of the charts, huh? That's downright embarrassing for a manufacturer once heralded for reliability and longevity.

 

+1...and I wonder if the wrx only truly suffers because of driver and not Subaru. That's a car I see come in the shop often times, however in most cases it only broke because of abuse.

There certainly wasn't a Stop Sale Order issued because people were beating on them.

[The B4]

Yeah, you sure did. Let me enlighten you . . .

http://www.blog.automotiveaddicts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/2008-jd-power-vds-1.jpg

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/quality-ratings-by-brand

. . . really at the top of the charts, huh? That's downright embarrassing for a manufacturer once heralded for reliability and longevity.

 

 

There certainly wasn't a Stop Sale Order issued because people were beating on them.

 

I figured that's what you were looking at. Toyota has recalled more vehicles in the past year 3 years than Subaru has sold in the past 10. I've never been a fan of JD Power results. JD Powers is a for profit entity that asks for companies to buy their service to improve their rankings and then allows them to advertise their rankings. It's funny that the not for profit company that buys it's own cars and does not allow companies to advertise its results (Consumer Reports) says the exact opposite of JD Power. JD Power uses a sample size of less than 90,000 vehicles... sometimes less than 70,000 vehicles. Considering all of those have to represent all brands and models, how many of those do you think would be Subarus? Consumer Reports uses a sample of over 1 million vehicles.

 

This argument is a can of worms... but I took JD Power w/ a grain of salt even when Subaru scored well (which changed right when McGraw Hill took over)

 

By the way... the dependability survey you pulled up is a year out of date. Here is the new one.

 

http://i49.tinypic.com/34j2g55.png

[LosAngelesLGT]

The 2010 added a REAL Harmon Kardon sound system that kicks ass (remember to adjust the equalizer and listen to something other than radio broadcasts). It added real ipod connectivity that is pretty much like Ford's Sync. It added Bluetooth calling and audio streaming, It added a back up camera, It added (finally) auto up and down driver's window, it added quicker and more effecient CVT's instead of 4EATs. It added 6MT's instead of 5 MT's. It added an 8 inch Navi Screen w/ DVD playback.They added voice activated Navi and audio functionality. They added USB input. It added gas struts instead of prop rods, It added key entry to the trunk. It added uprated brakes and better tires, It added a better power to weight ratio. It added improved handling and ride. It added a quieter and more comfortable interior. It added trunk mounted fold down seat levers. It added a non intrusive gas struts for the trunk lid. it added a 2.5i with 23/31 mpg instead of 20/26 mpg. They added 18" wheels for all GT's. They added a rear seat you don't have to apologize for. They added the Hill Holder system. They added minimal weight gain for becoming a larger vehicle. Added auto on headlights. Added a standard armrest extension. Added a new engine cradle with better impact safety. It added best in class front fender bender protection. it added back choices for leather/cloth/moonroof/etc. It added speed sensing auto volume control. It added a larger gas tank. I'm sure there are a lot of things I'm missing... but the delete list isn't the only list the 2010 brings.

Repost!

 

First I would like to honestly tell you what I liked better than my 05LGT:

 

I think the mirrors were better placed for someone 6' or taller (not a joke, just easier to see out).

 

I love that the back seats fold down (almost did not buy in 05 because only a skithru in the trunk not folding seats), the sound syem Bose),

 

I think 18" wheels look more appropriate in the wheel wells and it is nice that you can roll 18" rubbers instead of 17 AND STILL LOOK STOCK is real cool (I always considered the LegacyGT a sleeper, a fast car in disguise and that is one of the MORE appealing aspects of the car)

 

The front seats are maybe a tiny bit more comfortable but are also maybe a tiny bit less firm. Not a dramatic improvement or loss either way but probably better for a daily driver in traffic.

 

No offence to the 2010 fanboys but I was at Glendale, CA Subaru and drove a new, red 2010 and parked my 05 right next to it. There is NO CHANCE IN HELL I would spend the money I spent on my 05 for the 2010. I think it is important to take most of the above post with a grain of salt - I am and here is why:

 

A decent sound system is not something that is an upgrade, Subaru has simply put a sound system in that you don't have to immediately toss out if you listen to anything other than talk radio.

 

Bluetooth in 2010??? Wow can you imagine what the future might hold? haha: Come on, my friends Mom's rav4 from 05 has Bluetooth

 

A back up camera??? SERIOIUSLY? LMFAO THATS COMEDY

 

CVT??? How old am I, 70? No thanks, don't like it on motorcycles, certainly don't want it in a performance car

 

Trunk has keyless entry now - oh wait, so does my 05 UNlimited

 

18" wheels on all GT is nice but in no way makes up for the potenz re50 or the re92 garbage that came on the 05. Good tires on a 17" > soso tires on 18" - those would need to be some pretty light wheels for the exact same performance...

 

The back seating is basically the same if you are over six foot like I am.

 

I should point out in the post I quoted it is stated that the car has a "better power to weight ratio" yet is "bigger and heavier" and no comments about more power...

 

PERSONALLY?? I THINK THE NEW GT COMPLETELY MISSED THE BOAT! I honest to god am considering finding another 05-06 for the wifey. In no way do I HATE the 2010 but I would not have ended up with an LGT in 05 if the 05 model was the same as the 2010.

 

Please understand I mean to offend no one and I hope all the new 2010 owners love they cars as much as I love my 05 and would not trade it for a 05 for the world!

 

I am just stating my opinions and making small commentary!

 

IF SUBARU REALLY WANTS TO DO SOMETHING RIGHT FOR THEIR PERFORMANCE CUSTOMERS: Bring back a low-frills UNLIMITED like in 05. I bought my 05 LGT MT brand new for under 26k out the door (with zero down and Subaru sponsored financing of 0.9%!!!)

 

What I care about in my performance car:

1. PERFORMANCE

2. FUN FACTOR

3. LOOKS (I know, I know, it is opinion based and some prefer the 2010!!!)

4. RELIABILITY

 

Improving three of thos four basic things for a LGT would have made me a repat buyer 100%. Raising the price without raising ANY of those things has made me completely reconsider what my next car will be. Subaru wants me to spend 30k+ (and 4%) on a car that, IN MY OPINION, is in no way is superior to my 05 performance wise, fun factor or (imo) looks.

 

What I don't give a rats ass about in my performance car:

1. HILL HOLDER (seriously, its not an outback)

2. ARMREST EXTENSION (snicker)

3. BLUETOOTH (cant you see im busy driving the crap out of my car!)

4. IPOD (those of us who care already have a radio brodcaster)

5. DVD (see 3)

6. AUTO HEADLIGHTS (whatever, I can see it is dark out)

7. USB (see 3)

8. SPEED SENSING VOLUME CONTROL (seriously mom, I can drive fast and listen to the radio at the same time, really, its okay mom, I am a big boy and can make my own decisions)

9. IMPORVFD FUEL ECONOMY IN A LOW END MODEL (I know most sales are not GT but that doesn't make me want to buy a GT that the low models get better mileage)

 

JUST IMAGINE IF ALL THAT EFFORT WAS PUT INTO MAKING ANOTHER $26,000 UnLIMITED. I would already be posting about my new 2010 instead of considering a STI

 

My 2 cents and love to the LEGACY community

LALGT

[mark30pwr]

LA-LGT: Dude, I respect your post. You were very objective and respective and in no way bashed any car or any car owner. I wish more people on this forum had your level of courtesy.

 

I test drove both the 2009 and 2010 Legacy's and in the end chose a 2010 because of which features were important to me. Had my wants been different, I could have ended up choosing the 2009.

[sleepersedan]

By the way... the dependability survey you pulled up is a year out of date.

Did you even bother looking at the second link? That looks like 2009. Either way, the 10' is one ugly car. I agree with LALGT's comments.

[Verwilderd]

If it was BS, I would have zero fuel economy improvement. Even if it is only 2MPG, it was money saved when gas was ass rapingly high

 

Or is it only BS because the USDM car lacks it?

 

There's a handful of shills that will swear up and down if Subaru turned the Legacy into a cardboard box with wheels and no engine that its an improvement over what we had between 2005 and 2009.

 

Sorry, not buying it. I know BS when I hear it. The fatties and grannies might be scammed into thinking they aren't losing anything. But every time I sit in my 2008 I know better.

 

Once again, unless you are driving tons and tons of miles saving those extra 2mpgs then you really aren't saving any money. I doubt you would ever see even a total of $500 savings because of that...especially when you can accomplish the exact same things by not pressing the gas pedal as hard. So it's bs. You can get the same mpg without it. That's the part you don't seem to understand.